Can a tare become saved?

[PinSeeker]

View attachment 62330

LOL! Right back atcha, NTR. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dash RipRock]

It can't both be true that once a person is saved they can't lose their salvation and once a person is saved they can lose their salvation.

That's false doctrine. You're welcome.

I'm in the minority of Christ followers that believe that Jesus can and will save ALL in order to reconcile "all things" back to our Father in Heaven.

That's the false doctrine of universalism and not accepting all of God's Word is how one becomes a universalist

“6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. ”
Exodus 34:6-7 KJV
Unfeigned Bible in.6

Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin

Deuteronomy 1:39 - Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

2 Kings 14:6 - But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin

Ezekiel 18:19 - Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself

We were NOT born with a sin nature!
when God placed a person in the mother's womb... the Lord did not put sin in to them making them to be born as sinners.

What some are referring to as "sin nature" are the habits we all take on as a result of living in a world full of sin and darkness and habitually they become full of "sin nature" because they live in sin continually walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

God did not make anyone to be a sinner when He created them... but satan claims He did

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We all became sinners AFTER we were born so God is holding each person accountable for their own sin, not for Adam's sin

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here again.... death (separation from God) passed upon all men because all have sinned not because of what Adam did

And He never said tares can become wheat

That came out of false reformed theology that claims God decided who would be saved before the foundation of the world and it was his will for all others to go to hell longer before they were ever even born

It's possible according to God's Word for all to get saved because all things are possible with God

Just because God knows the end from the beginning does not mean He is preventing most people from getting saved as the devil's false teachers claim

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree, and since in reality a tare weed never becomes wheat in a farmers field, it would seem best to say the parable should be understood from God’s perspective.

Here’s another problem to consider though, in Matthew 13:39-42 at the harvest the angels gather the tares out of His kingdom and they are burned with fire. In John 3:5 no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and Spirit. The tares are sown by Satan and removed from the kingdom at the harvest yet a tare can’t enter the kingdom to begin with unless they are born of water and Spirit.

What do you make of this apparent contradiction?

That is easily resolved by looking at Matthew 13:38 to see that the tares are not children of His kingdom and only the wheat are children of His kingdom and by looking at this similar parable:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since Matthew 13:38 specifically says that the tares are not in His kingdom, then there is no reason to interpret Matthew 13:39-42 as if it's talking about taking the tares out of His kingdom. That causes Matthew 13:39-42 to contradict Matthew 13:38.

These verses are saying the same thing:

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous...

Verse 41 is not saying that the tares ("them which do iniquity") are in His kingdom and taken out of it. No, that contradicts Matthew 13:38. What verse 41 is saying is that at the end of the age the tares (the wicked) will be separated from the wheat (the righteous). They represent the children of the wicked one (Matt 13:38) and will be gathered or separated out from the children of His kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's false doctrine. You're welcome.

Right. That's what I was saying. LOL.

 

[PinSeeker]

...some are more spiritually minded, which leads them to seek God…

Disagree. Here is what Paul says, quoting from Isaiah 45 and Ezekiel 18 in doing so:

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.... There is no fear of God before their eyes... all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." (Romans 3:10-18, 23)​

This is the natural human condition. It's... pretty awful. But thanks be to God, this is what we've been saved from. And... if we have been saved ~ born again of the Spirit ~ then we will seek God. And God says, through Jeremiah, to the Israelite exiles in Babylon ~ and this has direct implications for us, too:

"You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile." (Jeremiah 29:13-14).​

And Jesus says:

"...seek and you will find..." (Matthew 7:7; Luke 11:9).​

​

However... <smile> Those who have the Spirit will be spiritually minded. As Paul says:

"...no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we (Christians, of course) have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God" (1 Corinthians 2:11-12).​

Sin has very far-reaching effects and none of them have good outcomes.

Absolutely. Even what you say here is a vast understatement.

God never wanted us to suffer, but in Satan’s world, pain and suffering are the ‘norm’.

This is why Christ came, to undo all the damage, and to restore life for those who lost it under so many different circumstances. God never intended this life for us, but it was the only way he could show us where disobedience leads us. He tried to tell us, but we had to have a first hand demonstration of where disobedience takes those who think they can do things better their way.

Yeah, you're preaching to the choir, here, AJ. <smile> But yes, absolutely.

Who can look at the state of the world today and not dread the future?... Things have to get worse before they get better….so we must be patient. God has it all in hand….we can trust that when the time is right, he will act to bring satan and all who follow him to justice.

Absolutely. But there is no need for pessimism, even in the face of all this, right? As Paul says:

"...we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose... If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? ... we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us...t neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:29-39).​

And as the writer of Hebrews says:

"...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the Founder and Perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:1-2).​

​

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That came out of false reformed theology that claims God decided who would be saved before the foundation of the world and it was his will for all others to go to hell longer before they were ever even born

It's possible according to God's Word for all to get saved because all things are possible with God

Just because God knows the end from the beginning does not mean He is preventing most people from getting saved as the devil's false teachers claim

Your whole thinking on this doctrine is very skewed and based on false premises.

YOu hold to the extreme Arminiast view of free will.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We know weeds can’t literally turn into wheat plants, which would seem to be a major point of the parable, but that would require a Premil view of Satan not being bound and the tares continuing to be deceived and in darkness until the harvest.

That is a very astute observation.
> It seems that tares are reprobate, irredeemable hosts that God has already "given them over to a debased mind", let them go.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1:18-25

To be reprobate means God has already judged you in this life ... He gave you over to your debased mind! "Become futile in their thoughts", means you are doomed - doesn't it? These folks are without excuse, having been given ample opportunities to repent _ to be fair _ but in reality have been born of a different seed, like weeds.
>> The question is: Were we ever tares? I don't think so. I have to say that even before we were born, we were chosen.
I can say about myself, no I was never a tare. I was not someone inside the Church pretending to be or disguised as a Christian, but working for Satan in a destructive way. No, I just said no to Jesus for 25 years and at 35 years old, said yes.
> I could be wrong about this, maybe tares can be miraculous changed into wheat? I just don't think so. Why? Because God is sovereign, has a perfect plan, is the AUTHOR of our faith and the Body is therefore finite, saved nit subject to futulity.
> Scriptures say "narrow is the way to salvation ... wide is the way to destruction". We must conclude that narrow is less than 50% ( likely 1/3 scriptures implies). The rest ... reprobate.

 

[Dash RipRock]

Your whole thinking on this doctrine is very skewed and based on false premises.

That's what the devils keep claiming as they cannot stand the Truth of Gold's Word.

Right. That's what I was saying. LOL.

Glad to be able to help out.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Glad to be able to help out.

LOL. No offense, but you were no help at all. You first misrepresented my view. I then corrected you with what I actually said. You then said what I actually said was false doctrine and that is what I was saying. I was saying that the view I was describing was false. And you agree.

 

[Dash RipRock]

LOL. No offense, but you were no help at all. You first misrepresented my view. I then corrected you with what I actually said. You then said what I actually said was false doctrine and that is what I was saying. I was saying that the view I was describing was false. And you agree.

That's what happens when you blow things all out of proportion.

It's kinda like people saying you didn't quote all the Lord said about something

So, sometimes the thing to do is to post a link to the entire Word of God as to cover everything

 

[Brakelite]

Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin

You need to separate sin itself from the sin nature we are born with. Why do you think Jesus said we must be born again? Why is that necessary?

 

[Dash RipRock]

Why do you think Jesus said we must be born again?

God did not make anyone to be a sinner when He created them... but satan claims He did

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

We all became sinners AFTER we were born so God is holding each person accountable for their own sin, not for Adam's sin

This is why we must be born again, see Romans 3:23 and try believing it this time

But I understand where you're coming from.
Lots of folks just cannot accept all that God says in His Word.

I'm sure you are befuddled as to why Jesus said the Kingdom of God is made up with those who are like children and can't figure out why Jesus appears to be saying those in his Kingdom all have sin nature. Befuddlement befuddles you.

 

[grafted branch]

That is easily resolved by looking at Matthew 13:38 to see that the tares are not children of His kingdom and only the wheat are children of His kingdom and by looking at this similar parable:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since Matthew 13:38 specifically says that the tares are not in His kingdom, then there is no reason to interpret Matthew 13:39-42 as if it's talking about taking the tares out of His kingdom. That causes Matthew 13:39-42 to contradict Matthew 13:38.

These verses are saying the same thing:

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous...

Verse 41 is not saying that the tares ("them which do iniquity") are in His kingdom and taken out of it. No, that contradicts Matthew 13:38. What verse 41 is saying is that at the end of the age the tares (the wicked) will be separated from the wheat (the righteous). They represent the children of the wicked one (Matt 13:38) and will be gathered or separated out from the children of His kingdom.

Matthew 13:38(NIV) The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,

Matthew 13:41(NIV) The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

Matthew 13:42(NIV) They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



First off Matthew 13:38 doesn’t specifically say the tares are not in His kingdom, it only says they are the people of the evil one.

Secondly if the tares aren’t in the kingdom then the angels are gathering wheat and throw the wheat that sins into the fire. Guess what we all sin and do evil. So using your interpretation only sinless wheat is going to be put in the barn and all the other wheat is going to be burned.

That interpretation doesn’t match Matthew 13:30

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

 

[grafted branch]

That is a very astute observation.
> It seems that tares are reprobate, irredeemable hosts that God has already "given them over to a debased mind", let them go.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1:18-25

To be reprobate means God has already judged you in this life ... He gave you over to your debased mind! "Become futile in their thoughts", means you are doomed - doesn't it? These folks are without excuse, having been given ample opportunities to repent _ to be fair _ but in reality have been born of a different seed, like weeds.
>> The question is: Were we ever tares? I don't think so. I have to say that even before we were born, we were chosen.
I can say about myself, no I was never a tare. I was not someone inside the Church pretending to be or disguised as a Christian, but working for Satan in a destructive way. No, I just said no to Jesus for 25 years and at 35 years old, said yes.
> I could be wrong about this, maybe tares can be miraculous changed into wheat? I just don't think so. Why? Because God is sovereign, has a perfect plan, is the AUTHOR of our faith and the Body is therefore finite, saved nit subject to futulity.
> Scriptures say "narrow is the way to salvation ... wide is the way to destruction". We must conclude that narrow is less than 50% ( likely 1/3 scriptures implies). The rest ... reprobate.

I agree with you, nice post. I’m not personally a Premil but since a tare never becomes wheat in reality, if I were to argue the Premil position I would say the parable of the weeds is written from God’s perspective, not man’s perspective which is why the tares are not saved and Satan is not bound from being able to deceive the tares and keep them in darkness.

An obvious rebuttal would be that everyone can be saved based on free will, therefore tares can be saved. But that would require the parable to be understood from man’s perspective and to my knowledge that would make the parable of the tares the only parable interpreted using an untrue reality (tares becoming wheat is not true in reality).

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 13:38(NIV) The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,

Matthew 13:41(NIV) The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

Matthew 13:42(NIV) They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



First off Matthew 13:38 doesn’t specifically say the tares are not in His kingdom, it only says they are the people of the evil one.

They are contrasted with the people in the kingdom. That means they are not in Christ's kingdom, but instead are in the evil one's (Satan's) kingdom.

Secondly if the tares aren’t in the kingdom then the angels are gathering wheat and throw the wheat that sins into the fire.

No. I showed you what verse 41 means. Did you not see that? I showed this similar parable...

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This shows what the angels will be doing. Separating the wicked (tares, bad fish) from the righteous (wheat, good fish). That's what verse 41 is saying. It's saying the angels gather or separate out the tares (children of the wicked one) from the wheat (children of the kingdom). It's not saying it takes the tares out of the kingdom, but rather it's a separation of the tares (the wicked) away from those who are in the kingdom (the righteous).

Guess what we all sin and do evil. So using your interpretation only sinless wheat is going to be put in the barn and all the other wheat is going to be burned.

Not what I'm saying at all. It's truly unbelievable how badly you misrepresent what I believe. We think very differently, so I think you are just not able to understand what I'm saying. But, please stop trying to tell me what I believe. I'll tell you what I believe. I don't believe half the things you say I believe, so please ask for clarification if you have any doubt at all about what I believe.

That interpretation doesn’t match Matthew 13:30

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

Why not? We are in Christ's kingdom now, right? Are we not in the world together with those are not in His kingdom? Yes, we are. Does that mean they are also in His kingdom? No. Will they be separated from us when Jesus returns? Yes.

 

[Brakelite]

What does it mean to be “born again”

You, a leader in Israel and you don't know these things?

 

[grafted branch]

This shows what the angels will be doing. Separating the wicked (tares, bad fish) from the righteous (wheat, good fish). That's what verse 41 is saying. It's saying the angels gather or separate out the tares (children of the wicked one) from the wheat (children of the kingdom). It's not saying it takes the tares out of the kingdom, but rather it's a separation of the tares (the wicked) away from those who are in the kingdom (the righteous).

Matthew 13:41(NIV) The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
What are the angels weeding out of His kingdom? We’re not talking about the world but out of His kingdom. Is it wheat or tares that have to be weeded out?

 

[Brakelite]

God did not make anyone to be a sinner when He created them.

Of course He didn't. But except for Adam and Eve, everyone born received through heredity the sinful nature of Adam. That however does not mean that the person has sinned...yet... But he will, because the carnal sinful nature we are born with make us weak, and it is in our nature to rebel, disobey, and think evil of one another and proudly off ourselves, which results in...

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

We all became sinners AFTER we were born so God is holding each person accountable for their own sin, not for Adam's sin

Absolutely. Never said otherwise. But we receive by heredity the inevitable impact of the sin of our forebears. Example. Alcoholism is passed down to 2 or 3 generations. Those younger generations have inherited a propensity to alcoholism, and the same is for any and all sin you can think of. That doesn't mean you are responsible for your parents sin, but you can certainly suffer the consequences... Hence God visiting the iniquity upon the children and the children's children up to the several generations. Being born again gives one the power... The Spirit... That such habits and addictions may be broken.

This is why we must be born again, see Romans 3:23 and try believing it this time

Being born again gives one power to overcome sin... It doesn't directly deal with the sink problem, but provides you with a new nature born of God rather than one born of Adam.

“3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ”
Romans 8:3-10 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

But I understand where you're coming from.
Lots of folks just cannot accept all that God says in His Word.

You understand that I cannot accept all that is written in God's word? Okay.

appears to be saying those in his Kingdom all have sin nature

No, Jesus isn't saying anything of the sort. He's saying everyone in the world has a carnal sinful nature, which is why He said you must be born again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 13:41(NIV) The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
What are the angels weeding out of His kingdom? We’re not talking about the world but out of His kingdom. Is it wheat or tares that have to be weeded out?

Why are you not looking at the other verses for context?! Who did Jesus say are in His kingdom? The wheat. Not the tares.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

What kingdom did Jesus reference here? His kingdom. Did He say the tares are in it? No! He only said the good seed (the wheat) are in it.

So, this is what verse 41 means:

Matthew 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

You should not interpret verse 41 in such a way that contradicts verses 38 and 49. Verse 41 is saying that the angels will separate out the tares/weeds (children of the wicked one, Satan) from the wheat (people of Christ's kingdom).

 

[grafted branch]

Why are you not looking at the other verses for context?! Who did Jesus say are in His kingdom? The wheat. Not the tares.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

What kingdom did Jesus reference here? His kingdom. Did He say the tares are in it? No! He only said the good seed (the wheat) are in it.

So, this is what verse 41 means:

Matthew 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

You should not interpret verse 41 in such a way that contradicts verses 38 and 49. Verse 41 is saying that the angels will separate out the tares/weeds (children of the wicked one, Satan) from the wheat (people of Christ's kingdom).

Ok, then it must be wheat that the angels weed out of the kingdom. Is that your interpretation?