When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Davidpt]

I agree. IMO it's a very obvious (obvious to me) example of mentally inserting something into a text in scripture that is not meant to be inserted, and does not belong there, in order to get it to comply with a preconceived belief.

I stand to correction but I think that because Preterists have Christ returning "spiritually" in 70 A.D, they have no problem at all linking the Olivet Discourse and the time of the end mentioned in verse 14, to 70 A.D - whether in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, they have the Olivet Discourse in its entirety referring to 70 A.D and the days leading up to 70 A.D . If Christ "returned" in 70 A.D or His Kingdom came in 70 A.D and there's nothing left for the future, then the Olivet Discourse - all of it - refers to the final years leading up to 70 A.D, and to 70 A.D itself.

I'm not sure anymore (and I really don't ever want to be reminded by any Preterist) of how they manage to get around THE FACT that the resurrection mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (as well as by Jesus in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54) has NOT occurred, and so Christ cannot have returned. For me it's enough to debate with non-Preterists who have Matthew 24:15 referring to the temple in Jerusalem and to 70 A.D, without trying to debate a Preterist.​

By Preterists I'm not meaning full Preterists in this case. I'm meaning anyone that is interpreting the Discourse from start to finish and applying all of it to the first century only. None of these Preterists I have in mind think Jesus returned in 70 AD. They still believe He returns in the end of this age like the rest of us do. What they don't believe is, that any of the Discourse is pertaining to His 2nd coming in the end of this age.

 

[dad]

No, that is your coming earth. It is a debacle.

There is no rule of Satan after Jesus returns. Don't pretend it is 'my' idea

 

[WPM]

There is no rule of Satan after Jesus returns. Don't pretend it is 'my' idea

It is a Premil myth. Satan is destroyed when Jesus comes, so are all the wicked. There is no one left to populate your imaginary future millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

What this little season tells us though, is this. It tells us when they initially ask what they ask. They obviously ask this at the beginning of when there is a little season back on earth still to go before any avenging can commence. This little season in question is obviously meaning the 42 month reign of the beast. What else could it mean if not that? Basically then, the 5th seal introduces us to the 42 month reign of the beast that must be fulfilled before any avenging can take place. That's where we on the timeline of events when they ask that. We are in the beginning of the 42 month reign back on earth.

The answer does not say: "when they will be avenged".

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"

"Killed as they were" means removed from their dead flesh and redeemed. This is not talking about martyrdom. This is the final harvest with Jesus and the angels on the earth after the Second Coming per Matthew 13 and 25. Jesus is on the earth sitting in Judgment on a throne in Jerusalem during this little season, while the rest of the church is waiting in their robes of white, until the final harvest is over. We do not know how long this will take, because we are never told the length. We are only told that the final harvest will happen.

Satan does not even get his 42 months, until after the 7th Trumpet sounds, and redemption is declared over.

 

[dad]

It is a Premil myth. Satan is destroyed when Jesus comes, so are all the wicked.

Yet he is still there as are the beast and false prophets at the end of the thousand years. Your claims that they were destroyed are false.

There is no one left to populate your imaginary future millennium.

Your vacuous grudge against the coming time after Jesus returns is noted.

 

[Scott Downey]

Colossians 1 would be the world they knew about, or another way to read it, the gospel bears fruit in all the world it comes to.

3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth [b]fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.

We know it did not go to the Americas back then.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The verse itself says it. The end is after we are raised and after His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

It's immediately after He comes down from heaven that the end comes. The end of the world as we know it. The end of the age. The end of rebellion. The end of sin. The end of death. Jesus will put an end to everything that opposes God when He comes and make everything new. Notice that when the end comes, He delivers the kingdom to the Father. Jesus said that at the end of the age is when "the righteous will shine for in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43). So, "the end" comes when Jesus comes at the end of the age.

 

[covenantee]

Colossians 1 would be the world they knew about, or another way to read it, the gospel bears fruit in all the world it comes to.

3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth [b]fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.

We know it did not go to the Americas back then.

Scripture and history record the numerous countries that the disciples, Paul, and other Christian missionaries visited and preached in during missionary journeys between Christ's first coming and Paul's epistles.

Together they comprised all of the nations of the world to which Paul referred in his declarations of the global extent of the Gospel's penetration.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We'll keep talking past each other from now on,

because IMO no part of Matthew 24:19-22 can possibly be referring to 70 AD, because of the way the whole passage is tied to the end of the age - from the repeated use of the word τότε, to the grammar linking everything together from verse 9 with the words "and", τότε, "for", "therefore" etc, which are correct translations from the Greek:

[Strongs Greek] 5119 τότε
from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753; the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):--that time, then. see GREEK for 3753. see GREEK for 3588

That word is used in quite a few verses in the passage:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

Regarding being deceived:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The reason Jesus warns them to take heed that no man deceive them becomes obvious later in His sermon:

ALL NATIONS: 9 τότε shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And τότε shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
ALL NATIONS: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and τότε shall the end come.
15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) τότε let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20-21 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For τότε shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The elect: 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 τότε if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Regarding being deceived:

The elect: 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The elect: 31 And τότε he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect are present in verses 22, 24, and 31 - but the elect were already present in verses 4, 5 and 13:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
​

So we will keep talking past one another from this point, because IMO the entire Matthew 24:9-31 passage has only one fulfillment - and it's not 70 AD (I can't read a separation of verses 15-22 into it the way you do).

Also, IF Jesus HAD answered their question about when the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed, it would have been mentioned somewhere in the epistles.

Luke 21 ALSO speaks of birth-pain signs of the end of the age, signs in the heavens at the time of Christ's return, and the disciples being persecuted.

But Luke ALSO speaks about the gathering of armies against Jerusalem, calling it God's wrath coming upon its inhabitants, and telling the disciples in Judea to flee when they see it happening.



So IMO IF what you say holds true even regarding Luke 21:20-24, then it means that those who live in that area AND who are alive when Jesus returns will have two witnesses telling them to flee - armies gathered around Jerusalem to attack it, and the man of sin in the church (the AoD in the holy place), because what you say means that Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the same gathering of armies of the nations against Jerusalem mentioned by the prophet Zechariah in chapter 14 of his book.

I just can't read into Matthew 24 a separation of Matthew 24:15-22 from the rest of the text the way you can - especially because IMO you're only doing it to get Matthew 24 to comply with the belief that Jesus in fact answered their question regarding the temple in Jerusalem, and that it refers to 70 A.D.​

I cannot accept the idea that Jesus did not answer their question about the temple buildings. You do acknowledge that they asked a question about that, but then you say He didn't answer it. Sorry, I can't make any sense of that.

Also, I can't accept that a passage which has a global context, like verses 4-14, is related to a local event described in verses 15-22. I see no reason to think that Jesus didn't answer the question about the temple buildings and the only text that fits a description related to that are verses 15-22.

We'll have to just agree to disagree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus is the Son of man.

Notice how the bold parts below allude to God's purpose for creating mankind:

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Psalm 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

Hebrews 2
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (nyn: of this present time) we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But (of this present time) we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It commences here:

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign unto the ages of the ages.​

I agree. The end will come when Jesus comes, which will be at the seventh and last trumpet. That is when death will be swallowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:50-54) and will be destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, the way @Spiritual Israelite and some others interpret 'τότε' at the beginning of verse 23 is that nothing previously mentioned explains it. That nothing previously mentioned is pertaining to the same context that verses 23-26 are involving. As in, once verses 15-21 are fulfilled, what's recorded in verses 23-26 follow at a later time. It's obvious why they need to do this. Because if they were to admit that verses 23-26 are involving the same era of time verses 15-21 are involving, they can then no longer keep insisting verses 15-21 are involving the first century and 70 AD. Obviously, what verses 23-26 is involving have zero to do with what happened leading up to and in 70 AD. On a side note, I'm not sure how Preterists fit verses 23-26 into their view? But apparently they do somehow.

By doing so, they, not meaning Preterists, invent another tribulation of days the text knows nothing of. Instead of verse 29 meaning the tribulation of days involving verses 15-26, they only have it meaning verses 23-26, a different tribulation of days, a tribulation of days that follow sometime after verses 15-21 are fulfilled first. As if it's reasonable that the nearest antecedent of the tribulation of those days in verse 29 is not verses 15-21, including verses 23-26, but is verses 23-26, excluding verses 15-21, being the nearest antecedent.



Obviously, no one is ever going to convince a Preterist that they are not interpreting all of Matthew 24 correctly. Except @Spiritual Israelite is not a Preterist, yet one can't convince him either, that he too is not interpreting all of Matthew 24 correctly.

Let alone what I argue above and what you argued per your post. Based on verse 14 alone it doesn't make sense for Jesus to then connect verses 15-21 with the first century and 70 AD. As if that is somehow relevant to verse 14. It might be if the end meant in verse 14 is not meaning the end of this age. Except it is, and even @Spiritual Israelite admits that it is.

You like to get your little digs in on me constantly. I guess that is what you have decided to do despite me offering an olive branch to you. So be it. Meanwhile, I hear nothing but crickets when I try to get you to actually give an interpretation of Matthew 24:15-21. You act like you have this all figured out, but when asked to put your money where your mouth is, I get silence in return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, even non-Pretribbers do that at times as well. In Luke 21 Jesus calls it wrath. In Matthew 24 He calls it tribulation. If Luke's account is involving unbelieving Jews, that would mean the wrath is God's wrath.

Not only is wrath described in the Luke 21 passage, but also "great distress".

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

As if "great distress" and "great tribulation" aren't the same thing. Why is it that you didn't mention the "great distress" in Luke 21? Seems pretty convenient for you to leave that out.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, even non-Pretribbers do that at times as well. In Luke 21 Jesus calls it wrath. In Matthew 24 He calls it tribulation. If Luke's account is involving unbelieving Jews, that would mean the wrath is God's wrath.

If the tribulation in Matthew 24 is involving persecuting the church, obviously one can't apply God's wrath in that case. Except some deny that the tribulation in Mathew 24 is pertaining to tribulation of the church. As if there is no such thing as great tribulation pertaining to the church.

3 different views per the following, yet they all have this in common, great tribulation is involving being upon unbelieving Jews.

@Spiritual Israelite interprets Matthew 24:15-21 to be pertaining to tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the first century.

Preterists interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to be pertaining to tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the first century.

Pretribbers interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to be pertaining to tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the 21st century after the church has been raptured first.

They all think great tribulation is upon the Jews. None of them think it's upon the church. Meaning in the Discourse. But somehow, between these 3 views above, one of these views is correct? How about this instead? Between these 3 views above, none of these views is correct?

Imagine this, the fact the Discourse involves events pertaining to the first century through His return. Except Jesus was completely silent in the Discourse in regards to Revelation 7:9, 14. That the alleged tribulation of the Jews is a greater tribulation than it is of the church. As if something local can surpass something global in greatness. Clearly, no matter how you look at it, the greatest tribulation this world will ever see is meaning the one recorded in Matthew 24:21. And that some insist this is a local tribulation and that it is greater than a global one. They have things backwards. That's what doctrinal bias will do to one at times.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Anyone that takes the former to be involving 70 AD better not dare insist the latter one is greater, the fact the former already plainly says this---For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not---no, nor ever shall be. What part of this--no, nor ever shall be---are some failing to comprehend? It clearly means it can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness.

NOWHERE does Matthew 24:21 say anything about it being a tribulation greater in scope than any other. You are reading that into the text. What the text actually is saying is that it would be UNLIKE any other tribulation while saying NOTHING about the scope of the tribulation.

If it was talking about a tribulation greater than any other in scope, then how could it be worse than the flood in Noah's day? You don't even think about these things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Still trying to dispel the disbelief that the Gospel was preached to all nations in Paul's era. There's no point continuing until we get past that.

More evidence:

• Apostle Peter who, after visiting Milan, had "passed over to the island of Britain, now called England, (where) he spent many years and turned many erring Gentiles to faith in Christ";
• Apostle Aristobulus (brother of St. Barnabas), who is called the Apostle of Britain and who was its first bishop; and
• Apostle Simon the Canaanite and Zealot. In these Islands, the Celtic Church had shone forth - especially during the glorious period known as the "Age of Saints" when its missionaries preached throughout much of Europe, becoming 'Equals to the Apostles'.
• Apocryphal legend claims that Joseph of Arimathea accompanied the Apostle Philip, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene & others on a preaching mission to Gaul. citation needed.
• Eusebius of Caesarea, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and father of ecclesiastical history wrote: "The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Britannic Isles."

No point continuing? Why can't we talk about this AND the other points I made? You expect me to address this while you don't have to address my points?

Was the gospel preached in China back then? In all of the nations of Africa? Japan? India? The Americas? Russia? It was preached in literally all nations?

 

[Timtofly]

Let's take you for example since I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Let's say that you die before Christ returns and that you of course go to heaven. At this point you are dead back on earth. At this point there has been no resurrection of the dead event yet. Except for 2000 years ago. Except that resurrection event would not be relevant in your case since you died 2000 years later not 2000 years earlier. How then do you view yourself in heaven after you have died but prior to any resurrection event? If you view yourself bodily in heaven, how did you obtain that body? There wasn't any resurrection event that happened when you died that might explain it. It is impossible, once someone has physically died to then obtain an immortal body without them being raised from the dead first.

Where in Scripture does it state the redeemed are dead on the earth, for the last 2 thousand years?

2 Corinthians 5:1 explicitly states that when the union with this body of death is over, the union with God's permanent incorruptible physical body starts. There is no waiting in death, post the Cross.

The OT redeemed waited in sheol, until they were physically resurrected at the moment the act on the Cross by Jesus was accomplished. They ascended physically into Paradise. The same with every soul, that is redeemed. They enter Paradise into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Jesus explained to Martha in John 11:25-26:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Those who know Jesus and post the Cross never die. Do you not believe that? Yes, to the world, their old body from Adam is dead, but leaving death behind is not remaining in death. The redeemed have a physical body that the soul enters upon their day of redemption, instantly when they leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh on the earth.

No one is waiting for a resurrection, but a change out of this body is inevitable.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That's how I see the tribulation related to Matthew 24:21 compared to the tribulation related to Matthew 24:29 as well. One tribulation is God's physical wrath against the Jews in 70 AD and the other is global spiritual tribulation before Jesus returns.

Wrongo! There are no two tribulations in whole context. One for first century Jews and another for end-time believers of the New Testament. Nope! Chrust talked about the New Testament congregation in the end time when Satan is loosen. That is the only time the great tribulation will occur. Not 70AD!

There's nothing inconsistent in my view.

Ahem!

 

[WPM]

Yet he is still there as are the beast and false prophets at the end of the thousand years. Your claims that they were destroyed are false.

Your vacuous grudge against the coming time after Jesus returns is noted.

Zero scriptural support, just private opinions.

 

[dad]

It's immediately after He comes down from heaven that the end comes.

OK

The end of the world as we know it. The end of the age. The end of rebellion. The end of sin.

So far so good

The end of death.

No, people still die in the millennium. They just live a long time. Believers don't die any more then of course. He ends death for us.

Jesus will put an end to everything that opposes God when He comes and make everything new.

No. The world is the same world for 1000 years, clearly.

Notice that when the end comes, He delivers the kingdom to the Father. Jesus said that at the end of the age is when "the righteous will shine for in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43). So, "the end" comes when Jesus comes at the end of the age.

The wicked are removed when He returns, they are destroyed. However they will still be 'alive' and raised up at the end of the thousand years to face judgment.


Matthew 13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Once He disposes of the wicked, the saved will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of God.

 

[dad]

Zero scriptural support, just private opinions.

The beast is alive at the end of the 1000 years says the bible.

Rev 20:7 7 And when the thousand years are expired..

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

The beast was thrown into the lake when He returned. After the 1000 years he was still there. You are proven wrong

 

[dad]

Chrust talked about the New Testament congregation in the end time when Satan is loosen. That is the only time the great tribulation will occur. Not 70AD!

Nice try but no. Satan is loosed after the 1000 years. The Great Tribulation was before the return of Christ and start of the 1000 years. Immediately after the tribulation we are told, Jesus returns.