No one can come to Jesus unless
- Thread starter Matthias
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Written to and about the unbelieving Jews of His time.
Imagine if you were a believing Jew in His time in love with the law of Moses.
And then there comes a man who calls Himself the Son of God, who forgives sins, who said -- I and the Father are One --, someone who puts your world upside down.
Are you 100% sure you would not pick up stones? Because that's what the Law of Moses ordered.
So yes, special revelation from God was needed to believe in Jesus was the promised Messiah, reading a few verses further we see the evidence and answer :
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
John 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
I am not raised as an orthodox Jew, I was raised with the Bible. No problem with Jesus.
What about others? Would you say that what Jesus said is applicable or not applicable to us?
To anyone who has a problem with Jesus, he/she needs special revelation from God. I think that is the message of John 6.
- Aug 10, 2012
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Absolutely.
It isn't only the Jews, but everyone. There are many things in this world that stand in the way. Even Christians may attend Church but not know Jesus really.
I was curious why you underlined in green a portion of your quote of John 6:70; for a notable reason I assumed.
Somehow I get the inkling that you might believe that when Jesus said of his Father that he the only one who draws people to him, you somehow have squeezed Jesus into the picture as saying Jesus had the same authority as his Father to draw people to himself. (remembering also the Cross drawing others to Christ is an entirely different matter and context)
And then you might conclude, if this condition was not true, then there is a contradiction in the verses John 6:44 along with John 6:65 that say only the Father draws, or really chooses, as in John 6:70 Jesus chose his apostles; as Jesus seemingly being of equal status with the same authority as his Father to draw others to him.
If you thought this as so, or not, then the obvious Biblical response and solution is that there is first, no contradiction at all between these verses. If the Father did not approve of the 12 apostles, then Jesus would know to pick others for the father's approval. I believe that when Jesus said he chose the 12 in verse 70, he knew already his Father had approved of them first. And even Judas for a reason.
Now if you have underlined in green in verse 70, those words for another reason, then I do not know what for, and then it does not raise my curiosity at all.
Good Day..
Behold
Well-Known Member
This..
Jesus said.....>"if i be lifted up.... (on the Cross) I will draw ALL people to me"...
Now, there are 2 perspectives of "lifted up"....on The Cross.
One is.....>The Actual Literal Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
#2 is...>>"the Preaching of the Cross".. as "the Gospel" as this also ""Lifts UP Jesus""", when its "preached" or "taught" So.......when this is happening Jesus, (the Holy Spirit), will "draw" the listener unto Himself.
There was nothing special in the green other than some cosmetic makeup. The point I am trying to make is that there can not be any contradiction in the Gospel. John 6:44 has split Christianity into 2 camps, I guess you know what I mean with that, Calvinism, people being unable to come to Christ versus :
Jesus - As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
Paul - So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Jesus once again - Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.” Matt 9:37-38
Millions of hearts are ready to receive, they only need to hear the Word.
Either one is true and my view (in my initial post) is that there is no Calvinism in John 6. Being born as a religious orthodox Jew is a major obstacle to accept Christ, as it was to those lived in His time He was among us.
We (non orthodox Jews) don't have this problem.
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John - 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
You may not agree with my understanding of that famous verse. I think the context is starting in verse 12-18, the Triumphal Entry and the response of the Pharisees in the next verse.
John 12:19 - So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”
Of course the Pharisees were using hyperbole, a part of Jerusalem is not the world.
As such I understand the word all in John 12:32 as hyperbole in return to the Pharisees as even more.
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth (crucified), will draw all (even more than then during the Triumphal Entry) people to myself.”
Give it a thought, it just fits with John 6:44, my previous post.
Is it true or not true that the Father wants all men to be saved? (I assert that it is true.)
Is it true or not true that salvation is found Jesus? (I assert that it is true.)
If it is true, then is the Father not drawing all men to Jesus? (I assert that he is.)
If it is true that he is, and if it is true that not all men will allow themselves to be drawn to Jesus and be saved, then is it not true that the fault is man’s, not the Father’s and not the Son’s? (I assert that it is.)
Man is without excuse.
Is it true or not true that salvation is found Jesus? (I assert that it is true.)
If it is true, then is the Father not drawing all men to Jesus? (I assert that he is.)
If it is true that he is, and if it is true that not all men will allow themselves to be drawn to Jesus and be saved, then is it not true that the fault is man’s, not the Father’s and not the Son’s? (I assert that it is.)
Man is without excuse.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Oh, can't there be any contradictions in the Bible?
I've seen John 6:44 bandied around as a proof-text for TULIP so many times, I almost dread seeing it. And I specifically remember Johnnie Mac's commentary on that verse in The MacArthur Study Bible endorsing cognitive dissonance and accepting the inherent biblical contradiction between God's sovereignty and Man's responsibility.
Not "tension". MacArthur said "contradiction". And prefixing "apparent" to "contradiction" is just a weasel-word to deny that the contradiction really does exist.
Except most of us can't live indefinitely with cognitive dissonance. So, we end up falling on one side or the other.
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Not on the Gospel message.
Paul understood John 6:44 -
2Cor 3:13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
2Cor 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
2Cor 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
John 6 and 2 Cor 3:13-16 are still true for orthodox Jews 2000 years later. I have a Jewish orthodox friend, he reads the NT, but the veil is still present.
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