The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat

[St. SteVen]

Both the fathers sons in that parable were already his sons.
They both remained as such. Even when the one son,the prodigal, left his father's ways for a time. When he humbled himself, the son returned home to the father. And was welcomed as his son still.

That's far removed from the idea all are welcomed to the party. Jesus didn't teach that.

Jesus said,no one comes to him unless the father leads them.

Jesus said in his sermon , he teaches in parables so that not everyone understands and comes to repentance. Mark 4.

Therefore,not all are welcomed to the party. Only those God calls are.

UR is not scripture.

Here is something that needs to be addressed concerning the Elect of God.
If the elect ALONE were predestined to life eternal, then everyone else was predestined to eternal punishment or annihilation.
That is, unless UR is true. Or at a minimum, a consideration.

What does it say about God's plan for humankind if He chose some for life and the rest (the majority) for destruction?
Or more importantly, what does it say about His character?

[

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Here is something that needs to be addressed concerning the Elect of God.
If the elect ALONE were predestined to life eternal, then everyone else was predestined to eternal punishment or annihilation.
That is, unless UR is true. Or at a minimum, a consideration.

What does it say about God's plan for humankind if He chose some for life and the rest (the majority) for destruction?
Or more importantly, what does it say about His character?

[

God is Omniscient, Sovereign and has Dominion over all his creation. Besides God,as he said,there is no Savior. Isaiah 43:11


See Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7-9.
2 Thessalonians 2 and if we remember the OT verse about the potter, Proverbs 16:4.

Don't for get his allowing Jobs to suffer Satan.

Jesus said he taught in parables so not all would understand and come to repentance.
To you it has been given to understand. But to others it has not been given.

The Elect of God. God's Elect.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Here is something that needs to be addressed concerning the Elect of God.
If the elect ALONE were predestined to life eternal, then everyone else was predestined to eternal punishment or annihilation.
That is, unless UR is true. Or at a minimum, a consideration.

What does it say about God's plan for humankind if He chose some for life and the rest (the majority) for destruction?
Or more importantly, what does it say about His character?

God is Omniscient, Sovereign and has Dominion over all his creation. Besides God,as he said,there is no Savior. Isaiah 43:11


See Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7-9.
2 Thessalonians 2 and if we remember the OT verse about the potter, Proverbs 16:4.

Don't for get his allowing Jobs to suffer Satan.

Jesus said he taught in parables so not all would understand and come to repentance.
To you it has been given to understand. But to others it has not been given.

The Elect of God. God's Elect.

That doesn't really answer my question. (concern)

I agree that "God is Omniscient, Sovereign and has Dominion over all his creation."
Therefore He alone is responsible for all those created in His image.

In the narrative about the potter, the Prophet was the only one to understand the significance.
God has given me insight into His plan for humankind. The church lied to us.

Please revisit post #61 and address the real issues. Thanks.

[

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

St. SteVen said:
Here is something that needs to be addressed concerning the Elect of God.
If the elect ALONE were predestined to life eternal, then everyone else was predestined to eternal punishment or annihilation.
That is, unless UR is true. Or at a minimum, a consideration.

What does it say about God's plan for humankind if He chose some for life and the rest (the majority) for destruction?
Or more importantly, what does it say about His character?

That doesn't really answer my question. (concern)

I agree that "God is Omniscient, Sovereign and has Dominion over all his creation."
Therefore He alone is responsible for all those created in His image.

In the narrative about the potter, the Prophet was the only one to understand the significance.
God has given me insight into His plan for humankind. The church lied to us.

Please revisit post #61 and address the real issues. Thanks.

[

The Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

OK.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

OK.

And?

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Steve - Here is a piece I wrote addressing some of the fundamental issues being wrestled with here.

Restoring Reverence for God.​

There is another issue that has contributed to a weak church today.
Our Father wants to express Himself to the world today through the family of God - in His fullness.
Social pressure has led to us presenting a palatable Gospel without the aspects of God’s nature that might offend.
We have failed to allow expression of many of His attributes and in doing so have made our God ‘PC’
To get a balanced picture of His character it is necessary to consider the whole of scripture and not just the New Testament.
Many believers have struggled to reconcile the Christ from the New with the God of Israel from the Old.
The aspects of God that have been conveniently ignored are in fact crucial to a strong Church. These could be called the ‘negative’ attributes of God, are not ‘nice’ and include the following…
Our God judges, is jealous, hates sin, is terrible, destroys, gets angry, consumes like a fire, takes vengeance and is intolerant.
Presenting a soft view of God has lead to having a generation of believers that have little comprehension or experience of the “fear” of God. There is a corresponding lack of wisdom among us, compounded by the modern trend towards young leadership in some Churches. By fear, I mean to honour and respect for a God who is awesome and holy. This is not to be confused with an unholy fear associated with sects and cults to control adherents.
This failure to represent of the fear of God to the Church has also meant that the Church’s voice in the world is muted.
How do we correct this lack of knowledge of such an important part of God’s character?
Three things come to mind.
Firstly, these aspects of God’s character are more often than not expressed through God’s prophets. You may ask - where are they? In many cases the structure and dynamic of our churches fails to make room for such a ministry. The one who is brave enough to say that we need to repent is often seen immediately as imbalanced ‘flakey’ or plainly deceived. In the early church there was a fellowship of prophets serving the family of God to bring His word. This is virtually unheard of today and would likely be viewed as a dangerous clique. This grouping of prophets in a district should be welcomed and serve to bring God’s Word to the Shepard’s in the area.
Secondly there has been a trend away from preaching and towards teaching. It is not surprising that preaching the Gospel has less appeal in the modern church as we are exhorted to go out and preach whereas most preachers stay in and preach. In staying in, they are all too often addressing a convinced audience. As in the early church, preaching should be done in public where the unsaved are. This is where the word of judgment has a significant place. Preaching with signs following in the market place results in radical conversions, which in turn challenge the church and stimulate renewal.
Thirdly our current generation seems to lack the personal close encounters with the Almighty that many of us remember, permanently changing our lives. I still recall a prayer time with students at Otago University in the 70’s when ‘God passed by…’ I was speechless for several hours. An encounter of that nature leaves one with a permanent deep respect and healthy fear of our Lord for a lifetime.
We sing about His awe, but if there was revelation knowledge of His holiness our gatherings would be more likely to command His respect and fear.

 

[quietthinker]

Both the fathers sons in that parable were already his sons.
They both remained as such. Even when the one son,the prodigal, left his father's ways for a time. When he humbled himself, the son returned home to the father. And was welcomed as his son still.

That's far removed from the idea all are welcomed to the party. Jesus didn't teach that.

Jesus said,no one comes to him unless the father leads them.

Jesus said in his sermon , he teaches in parables so that not everyone understands and comes to repentance. Mark 4.

Therefore,not all are welcomed to the party. Only those God calls are.

UR is not scripture.

I would add this to your post SnC, I see the younger son as coming home because he was hungry and couldn't get a feed anywhere else, not because he cared for the father....in other words he came home for selfish reasons....hardly one of humility but rather looking after number one.....and the Father would have none of this scraping and self depreciating. In fact the Father dismissed any self depreciation and threw a party to end all parties on top of giving him the robe the sandals and the ring (all symbols of inclusion in the household ...no judgement) just to assure him he was always a Son and not the servant he saw himself as being.

How is it we find the generosity of the Father so hard to get our head around? We put the onus on the son and make it sound that it was him coming home that gave him a leg up. We miss the fact the Father watched for him ever since he left home and when he saw him coming from a long way off, he ran to meet him. (old men running is undignified ...Jesus makes this point deliberately) I hope you see the significance of it.

The story is for us who see ourselves as honourable by considering ourselves repentant servants.....when all along God sees us as his precious children ...sons or daughters ....even in the pigsty.

The question for us is, will we see ourselves and other prodigals as precious sons and daughters or will we insist on being servants feeling the right to judge our fellows and make them jump through our hoops.....cuz the Father certainly didn't have any hoops!

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I would add this to your post SnC, I see the younger son as coming home because he was hungry and couldn't get a feed anywhere else, not because he cared for the father....in other words he came home for selfish reasons....hardly one of humility but rather looking after number one.....and the Father would have none of this scraping and self depreciating. In fact the Father dismissed any self depreciation and threw a party to end all parties on top of giving him the robe the sandals and the ring (all symbols of inclusion in the household ...no judgement) just to assure him he was always a Son and not the servant he saw himself as being.

How is it we find the generosity of the Father so hard to get our head around? We put the onus on the son and make it sound that it was him coming home that gave him a leg up. We miss the fact the Father watched for him ever since he left home and when he saw him coming from a long way off, he ran to meet him. (old men running is undignified ...Jesus makes this point deliberately) I hope you see the significance of it.

The story is for us who see ourselves as honourable by considering ourselves repentant servants.....when all along God sees us as his precious children ...sons or daughters ....even in the pigsty.

The question for us is, will we see ourselves and other prodigals as precious sons and daughters or will we insist on being servants feeling the right to judge our fellows and make them jump through our hoops.....cuz the Father certainly didn't have any hoops!

Thanks

 

[St. SteVen]

This failure to represent of the fear of God to the Church has also meant that the Church’s voice in the world is muted.
How do we correct this lack of knowledge of such an important part of God’s character?

Thanks for posting your article.

If I am afraid of something I avoid it at all cost. (so to speak)
If it is a person, they would likely use a threat of violence or extortion to get what they want from me.

That seems like a terrible characteristic to saddle God with. IMHO
I understand where you are coming from. (thanks) But...
Personally I am not fearful of God at all. I find Him completely loving and approachable.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks for posting your article.

If I am afraid of something I avoid it at all cost. (so to speak)
If it is a person, they would likely use a threat of violence or extortion to get what they want from me.

That seems like a terrible characteristic to saddle God with. IMHO
I understand where you are coming from. (thanks) But...
Personally I am not fearful of God at all. I find Him completely loving and approachable.

[

You apply a false definition when referring to the Fear of God.

Having reverence and being afraid are two very different responses.

Consider the anointing on Jesus...

Is 11

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.
2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and might,
the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
4 but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist,
and faithfulness the belt of his loins.

and Jer 32

I will gather them from all the countries to which I drove them in my anger and my wrath and in great indignation. I will bring them back to this place, and I will make them dwell in safety. 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

Should we snip these passages out of the Bible ???

 

[St. SteVen]

You apply a false definition when referring to the Fear of God.

Having reverence and being afraid are two very different responses.

...

Should we snip these passages out of the Bible ???

No snipping, but certainly an indication of a translation problem.
Do we need a decoder ring to read and understand the Bible?
It says "fear" but means something else?

Furthermore, your testimony about when God passed by indicates some level of terror.

And to be honest, I know that "fear" doesn't mean fear.
But the church certainly uses fear tactics with the believe or burn stance.
Which basically amounts to extortion. (threat of harm for noncompliance)
Not really a free will choice.

Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation​

Is the "free gift" of salvation really free? - Honestly?​

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

No snipping, but certainly an indication of a translation problem.
Do we need a decoder ring to read and understand the Bible?
It says "fear" but means something else?

Furthermore, your testimony about when God passed by indicates some level of terror.

And to be honest, I know that "fear" doesn't mean fear.
But the church certainly uses fear tactics with the believe or burn stance.
Which basically amounts to extortion. (threat of harm for noncompliance)
Not really a free will choice.

Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation​

Is the "free gift" of salvation really free? - Honestly?​

[

Hey - no doubt some churches Manipulate with ungodly fear but that isn't Godly reverential fear.

There was no ungodly terror when the Lord 'passed by' as I described just as there was no ungodly terror when Isaiah saw the Lord...

Isaiah's Vision of the Lord​

6
1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”

The fear of the Lord is an fact a friend that seals us in righteousness to salvation.

Jer 32
they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
39 I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them.
40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

 

[Pearl]

The prompting of the Spirit helps us discern when something is not right.
It takes a brave soul to buck the system, and do what is right.

I think your post is intelligent and thoughtful. I was brought up in the Church of England - Anglican. I was mentored by a wonderful vicar and his wife who taught me well and helped lay the foundations of my faith. But I continued to grow and learn and want more of God so when He spoke to me about being baptised I approached this kind vicar and told him that I needed to be baptised. He was fully sympathetic but wasn't allowed to baptise me because according to eh Anglican tradition I had been baptised as a baby. So the only thing I could do was find a church that would do what God was telling me to do and leave the CoE.

 

[St. SteVen]

There was no ungodly terror when the Lord 'passed by' as I described just as there was no ungodly terror when Isaiah saw the Lord...

Can you really add the word "godly" in front of terror to nullify the terror?
Seems that it is still terror. Isaiah seemed to manifest terror.
“Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” - vs 5

Other translations say:
- “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined!
- "Woe is me! for I am undone;

Sounds like REAL terror.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I think your post is intelligent and thoughtful. I was brought up in the Church of England - Anglican. I was mentored by a wonderful vicar and his wife who taught me well and helped lay the foundations of my faith. But I continued to grow and learn and want more of God so when He spoke to me about being baptised I approached this kind vicar and told him that I needed to be baptised. He was fully sympathetic but wasn't allowed to baptise me because according to eh Anglican tradition I had been baptised as a baby. So the only thing I could do was find a church that would do what God was telling me to do and leave the CoE.

That's interesting, thanks.
Would they have baptized you if you were an adult new convert?

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can you really add the word "godly" in front of terror to nullify the terror?
Seems that it is still terror. Isaiah seemed to manifest terror.
“Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” - vs 5

Other translations say:
- “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined!
- "Woe is me! for I am undone;

Sounds like REAL terror.

[

Not so... a genuine encounter with God's Awesome Holy nature leaves you dumbfounded - not terrorised.

I can only guess you haven't had such an encounter.

As to Isaiah it was not terror, it was the revelation of His uncleanness seeing His Holy Awesome presence.

You seem to want to interpret to suit your theology.

 

[St. SteVen]

Not so... a genuine encounter with God's Awesome Holy nature leaves you dumbfounded - not terrorised.

I can only guess you haven't had such an encounter.

I have had my encounters with God.
Certainly one of them left me dumbfounded.

As to Isaiah it was not terror, it was the revelation of His uncleanness seeing His Holy Awesome presence.

You seem to want to interpret to suit your theology.

Of course. Why wouldn't I interpret to suit my theology?
You do the same thing.

Why would Isaiah's revelation of his uncleanness be such a concern if he was not terrorized?
You are twisting every which way to make it fit your own theology.

- “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined!
- "Woe is me! for I am undone;
Sounds like REAL terror.

[

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Thanks for posting your article.

If I am afraid of something I avoid it at all cost. (so to speak)
If it is a person, they would likely use a threat of violence or extortion to get what they want from me.

That seems like a terrible characteristic to saddle God with. IMHO
I understand where you are coming from. (thanks) But...
Personally I am not fearful of God at all. I find Him completely loving and approachable.

[

I agree. Would you want to spend eternity with someone you are afraid of? I'd hope not.

The fear of God passages are often mistranslated and/or misrepresented as being frightened or in dread of God.

That's not the case .

Hebrew Meaning of Yirah: What Connects Fear and Awe?

The Hebrew word Yirah means awe. It is often also translated as reverence, worship, and fear (like fear of the Lord). Discover more here.

firmisrael.org

What does Yirah mean?​

The Hebrew word translated into ‘awe’ in the Bible is yirah (יראה, pronounced yir-ah). It often directly translates into fear, like “fear of the Lord,” and it can also mean respect, reverence, and worship. But make no mistake about it, yirah is strongly connected to ‘trembling’.

 

[St. SteVen]

Would you want to spend eternity with someone you are afraid of? I'd hope not.

Exactly.
The god created by the church is a monster. I don't buy it.

The fear of God passages are often mistranslated and/or misrepresented as being frightened or in dread of God.

Great post, thanks.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I have had my encounters with God.
Certainly one of them left me dumbfounded.

Vision like an eagle

I recall it was a Sunday evening service at church. We had a local guest speaker I was familiar with.
After the sermon/teaching he was praying for people at the front of the church, the altar area.
I had gone down to help. Sometimes people go down when they are overwhelmed by the Spirit.
I was there as a catcher. I stood behind those being prayed for to make sure they had
a soft landing if they went down, Worship music was playing in the background.

Everyone had been prayed for, but I remained at the front worshiping God and enjoying his presence.
The song with a lyric "on eagles wings" was playing, so I stretched out my arms and swayed like an eagle in flight.
Just then the minister stepped forward and put a hand on my forehead declaring out loud, "Vision like an eagle!"
It startled me, I didn't anticipate it. But I received what he prophesied over me with a nod and a "Yes."

Nothing unusual happened in that moment. So I went away thinking it was for another time. Indeed.

In the following weeks I began to have a recurring picture in my mind's eye.
I recognized it as a familiar street in a neighboring city. I had no idea what it meant.
But it happened several times. And then stopped.

Several weeks later I was in the downtown area of my town on my bicycle.
I finished my business and was turning around to go home when I remembered the area in the vision,
Since I wasn't far away, I thought I should ride over there and see if there was something there for me.

I rode up one side of the street looking at all the store fronts and anyone that might be there.
For some reason I was completely oblivious to what was happening right across the street. - LOL

I rode as far as I thought I needed to and decided to cross the street in the middle of the block
and go back on the other side. It was then that I noticed a woman examining the back of her car as if it was damaged.
I also noticed that she looked rather sickly. A very pale complexion. Hmm... ???

I crossed the street and went past her. At that moment God spoke to me loudly. "Go talk to that woman."
Then I also noticed the squad car at the scene of an accident that I had overlooked earlier.
As I turned my bike around, I asked God what I should say to her. My question was met with silence.
So typical for these encounters. - LOL

The woman was walking toward me so I stopped my bike. I needed to talk to her. What should I say?
As she neared I spoke up. "It looks like there was an accident here." She affirmed my comment and said she had been
hit by a car coming home from a doctor's appointment. At this point I was face to face with the woman.

She did look VERY sickly. I noticed that her hair was either falling out or growing back, not sure which.
And there were bumps on her head that looked like cancerous growths. So I asked here if she had cancer.

She conceded that she did indeed have cancer. I asked if I could pray for her. She agreed to let me do that.
I dismounted my bike and asked if I could lay a hand on her shoulder. Yes. I stumbled through an awkward prayer.
But I felt God's presence surrounding us. When I finished, she made the sign of the cross on her chest.
I assumed she was Catholic. I bid her well and left for home on my bicycle.

Tears streamed down my face as I considered what had just happened.
The logistics of this divine appointment blew my mind. (dumbfounded)

[ cc: @Carl Emerson , @LittleTuneAlright