SETTLING THE FALSE THEORY OF REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

[Davy]

Even more amazing is when Jesus returns His throne will be in Jerusalem demonstrating that the British Empire and the United States of America never did replace Israel in God's eyes.

And what will be even more... amazing, is how the ten lost tribes of Israel will wake up all of sudden with being shown how God used them in The Gospel to form the western Christian nations of history, and take The Gospel to the other nations in the world. Many who think they are Gentiles will wake up to realizing their descendants were of the lost ten tribes of Israel. And the Gentiles will be made to recognize them also.


After God had split the old nation of Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward, the label "house of Israel" only referred to the northern ten tribes of Israel, a.k.a. ten lost tribes.

Ezek 39:21-29
21 And I will set My glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see My judgment that I have executed, and My hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Me, therefore hid I My face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

God did not hide His face from the "house of Judah", or Jews. It was the northern ten tribes of Israel that God said He gave a bill of divorce to per Jeremiah 3:8. Judah was still faithful at that time when God was getting ready to scatter the northern ten tribes because of their idol worship (Hosea 11:12).

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid My face from them.

That is when God scattered all the ten northern tribes out of the holy land, captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes (2 Kings 17). Then He said in Hosea 2, their being scattering to the "wilderness", there He would let them have their full Baal idol worship they forgot Him for. But a time would come when He would take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and call Him "Ishi", and He would given them another "covenant" (i.e., The New Covenant Jesus Christ).


25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;

"Jacob" is put for all 12 tribes of Israel, likewise with that "whole" idea.


26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against Me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, Which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

Again, that's about the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel". In Ezekiel 3, God said He sent Ezekiel specifically unto the ten tribe "house of Israel". So just as the Book of Jeremiah is particularly about the Jews of the "house of Judah", likewise the Book of Ezekiel is mainly about the ten tribe "house of Israel".

1 Kings 12:21
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
KJV

If one does not understand the verse above that is specific to the two separate houses, the "house of Judah" for the Jews of the southern kingdom made up initially of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, vs. the "house of Israel" northern ten tribe kingdom of ten tribes, then you are way behind in understanding Bible prophecy about the nation and peoples of Israel, and God's Plan with His working through them, particularly in The Gospel also.

 

[Dash RipRock]

And what will be even more... amazing, is how the ten lost tribes of Israel will wake up all of sudden with being shown how God used them in The Gospel to form the western Christian nations of history, and take The Gospel to the other nations in the world. Many who think they are Gentiles will wake up to realizing their descendants were of the lost ten tribes of Israel. And the Gentiles will be made to recognize them also.

Spiritually speaking, but not according to the flesh as in our DNA does not show we are Jewish

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who said, "cast away all the Jews for their unbelief", I didn't? You are hearing voices, are you?

Once again you have misunderstood something you have read. Your reading comprehension skills are still very poor, I see. I did NOT say that YOU said that. You gave evidence for why that is not true, right? I'm not disagreeing that it's not true, but I was showing what Paul gave as the evidence that it's not true in Romans 11:1-5.

What I said was that today the MAJORITY OF JEWS still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah. I never said all Jews reject Jesus.

I never said that you did say that. You need to learn how to read, man. Seriously.

And if you do not agree with that,

I do agree with that.

then it means you disagree with what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about his brethren the Jews having been spiritually blinded by God, His having put the "spirit of slumber" upon them away from The Gospel until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

So there's no reason for you to make up lies with false claims of things I did not say.

I agree. And that's why I did not do that. You simply misunderstood what you read as you have done so many times before.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The house of Judah has never been cut off. Your assertion ignores everything Paul said about the remnant. The remnant of the house of Judah is the reason why the nation continued to exist (was not cut off) and it's into this nation that Gentiles who believe in Christ have been grafted.

Together the Jews and Gentiles in Christ are the citizens of Israel who are living stones making up a Temple - the New Testament Temple of God which did not REPLACE the nation of Israel - but since the citizens ARE now the Temple, in the New Covenant the (citizens of) the nation (Israel) and the Temple of God are the same thing. In the Old Covenant the nation and the Temple were not one and the same thing.
​

And THE ABOVE nation is STILL the house of Judah - the foundations of its Temple are the Jewish apostles and its cornerstone is the Jewish Messiah - and it's the nation which since 722 B.C is also called "the whole house of Israel" - because through the remnant the house of Judah / "the whole house of Israel" continued to exist.

The northern ten tribes are never called Israel, the house of Israel or the whole house of Israel IN SCRIPTURE after BC722 - but the house of Judah continued to be called Israel, the house of Israel or the whole house of Israel IN SCRIPTURE after BC722. Nor did the house of Israel or the house of Judah cease to exist AFTER CIRCA AD30. God kept for Himself a remnant.

There would have been no elect nation for Gentiles to be grafted into if the house of Judah was cut off. But the majority were cut off. The remnant remained.

Amil is a descendant of catholicism.
Their amil error came from....THE CHURCH FATHERS that thought the persecution they were in ,was the GT, and the JEWS SCATTERED was interpreted as God cast them away forever..
SO ...amil, antisemitism, and postrib rapture, were born out of massive misunderstanding.
Those amils of today have no excuse.
We see Israel reformed as a nation with scattered Jews back in their land.
Postrib rapture adherents are embarrassed if they actually have to produce a defense for their doctrine.
( they actually admit it was made up by those ancient Catholics church fathers that thought they were in the trib)
Google catholic end times doctrine.
Pure postribber talking points complete with the wild screaming "DARDY DARBY DARBY DARBY 1830'S AND DARBY DARBY BAD BAD BAD".

pure comedy.

Ok so they pulled that error on top of themselves like a moldy blanket and are now convinced in their minds that their propaganda is truth.
"Tell a lie often enough and it magically becomes the truth "

Amil and postrib doctrine adherents are driven by spirits.
You are talking to spirits.
Dug in and clinching error with white knuckle grip.

 

[Davy]

Spiritually speaking, but not according to the flesh as in our DNA does not show we are Jewish

I don't understand you, that's not clear what you mean.

Did you not know that not all Israelites were called 'Jews'?

The ten northern tribes of Israel (i.e., the majority of the seed), are not Jews, but they are Israelites of the seed. The title of Jew originated from the name of the tribe Judah (this per the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived circa 100 A.D.).

I recommend you study 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 about the time when God split the old nation of Israel into two separate kingdoms. Only those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" made up the Jews, that name having originated from the tribe of Judah (this per the Jewish historian Josephus). The southern "kingdom of Judah" was made up of 3 tribes, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and eventually the tribe of Levi. A small remnant out of the northern ten tribes that rejected the calf idol worship the northern king setup also left and joined with Judah. All these began to call themselves by that title of Jew. But the northern ten tribes did not use that title of Jew; that label did not apply to them, nor does it today.

God scattered the northern ten tribes out of the holy land first, because they fell into idol worship that king Jeroboam setup in the north. Only the Jews of the "kingdom of Judah" in the southern holy land was left. That's when many of the Jews began thinking the ten northern tribes of Israel were forever lost. Thus those Jews left in the southern land, at Jerusalem-Judea, began being known as the only people of Israel, even as it still is like that to this day. Yet God did not lose the ten tribes that He scattered first. Prophecies of their future gathering confirms that.

What happened with the ten tribes that they became LOST to the world, and to the Jews? The answer to that is actually written in The Old Testament prophets, like the Book of Hosea.

Per God's warnings to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 4 & 28, He said if they rebelled against Him and went into idol worship, He would scatter them among the Gentiles. That's what God did to the northern ten tribes. He scattered them to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. They took their Baal idol worship with them. They would become as... Gentiles, living among Gentiles, and forget their heritage of being the majority of the seed of Israel. They would take other names and Gentile customs. (Ever wonder how Easter, originally a pagan feast, became a Christian tradition?). The ten tribes thus became LOST to the world and to the Jews. Some Jewish scholars simply wrote them off, claiming the ten tribes will never return. Other Jewish scholars instead heed the actual prophecies about their future return as an Israelite people in final (see Ezekiel 37 about the two sticks).

What God did with the ten tribes, was similar to what happened to Joseph when he was sold into Egypt. Joseph was sold into slavery among the Gentiles in Egypt, and suffered several trials, but then by interpretation God gave him about Pharaoh's dream, Joseph was then exalted to second in power over Egypt. God's Birthright had gone to Joseph, and his eleven brethren knew it and were jealous of him. Likewise with the ten tribes under the head northern tribe Ephraim, as God setup Jeroboam of Ephraim as "king of Israel" per 1 Kings 11. The ten tribes were separated from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi like Joseph was separated from his eleven brethren. And they were scattered among Gentiles in Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return to the holy land, even as it still is to this day.

Yet God used the ten tribes while being 'hidden' out of plain sight. They lost knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel. This is actually written in the Book of Hosea about them. There in Hosea they are called the "house of Israel", or "Ephraim". Then the time would come when God said He would speak softly to them, and give them a new covenant, and they would become His people again, along with the believing Gentiles. This linked to the ten tribes under the tribe of Ephraim fulfilling the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations." The nation of Israel in the holy land has only ever been but one... single nation, not a multitude of nations. So that prophecy to Jacob and then to Ephraim has to mean nations outside the holy land. And it especially means the 'seed' of Ephraim must still exist on earth, even to this day. Ephraim was the larger of all the ten tribes. Solomon had put Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as governor over the northern ten tribes before the split. But God gave Jeroboam to be "king of Israel" over ten tribes. That is written in 1 Kings 11.

 

[Davy]

Once again you have misunderstood something you have read. Your reading comprehension skills are still very poor, I see. I did NOT say that YOU said that. You gave evidence for why that is not true, right? I'm not disagreeing that it's not true, but I was showing what Paul gave as the evidence that it's not true in Romans 11:1-5.

Nice try, but I'm not going to let you try and finagle out of what you said to me:

You said to me and I quote:

"Actually, the evidence that Paul gave that God did not "cast away all the Jews for their unbelief" was not some future event that will prove that, but rather he proved it by the fact that there was a remnant of saved, elect believers in his day, which included himself."​

Furthermore, your statement above is contradictory to the written Scripture of Romans 11. Paul plainly stated that God put the "spirit of stupor" upon Paul's brethren the Jews so they would be spiritually blinded away from The Gospel.

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
KJV

You guys keep evading... that above Scripture in red by Apostle Paul. And there is no excuse for doing that.

 

[Dash RipRock]

Did you not know that not all Israelites were called 'Jews'?

In today's vernacular the tern Jews represents the descendants of Abraham in general.

I know there are different tribes, but generally speaking Jews is speaking of Israelites

So what's going to make you happy? Saying israelites, or descendants of Abraham?

Or do you require the breaking down of each of the 12 tribes of Israel and we must address each individual tribe?

They all came from the loins of Abraham and are his descendants and Christians do not replace them as God's elect just because as a whole the descendants of Abraham have yet to acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Messiah they are told was coming.

Although, I read once by some big time rabbi that he and top scholars within Judaism believe more descendants of Abraham have converted to Christianity since 1900 then all previous centuries combined which is a good thing since the descendants of Abraham are beloved of the Father.

 

[Davy]

In today's vernacular the tern Jews represents the descendants of Abraham in general.

No, not really, not per God's Word, because the descendants of Abraham also include the Ishmaelites (Arab peoples). And they certainly are not... Jews.

I know there are different tribes, but generally speaking Jews is speaking of Israelites

Like I had said, the Jewish historian Josephus (circa 100 A.D.) said the title of Jew is what those of the southern kingdom called themselves. And he said it was derived from the name of the tribe Judah. So no, that title of Jew was not used for the northern ten tribes in the northern lands of Israel. If you bother to study the Bible history from 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, you'd find out why that is.

So what's going to make you happy? Saying israelites, or descendants of Abraham?

Or do you require the breaking down of each of the 12 tribes of Israel and we must address each individual tribe?

No need to get smart with me youngster. I'm trying to expand your little limited scope of Bible understanding, but don't feel bad because you are not alone in your Biblical illiteracy about this subject.

You can call little green Martians by the name of Jew if that's what you want, I don't care, stay willingly ignorant. And don't Biblically educate yourself in the 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 history. Stay away from it, as it must be taboo to you for some reason.

 

[Dash RipRock]

No, not really, not per God's Word, because the descendants of Abraham also include the Ishmaelites (Arab peoples). And they certainly are not... Jews.

And of course God's Word teaches they are illegitimate

No need to get smart with me youngster.

So sorry, I had no idea who I was dealing with. The big kahuna is in de house eh?

Did you have to widen the door way to be able to get that big carnal minded head inside your house?

Yes of course those that don't see things exactly and precisely the way you do will burn in hell for all eternity!

As I said earlier there Einstein, in today's vernacular (street talk for the slower thinking wannabe brainiacs such as yourself), the Jews is a commonly used term to speak of israelites which is not necessarily intended to be bible talk.

As you were, carry on your perceived superiority complex which makes you a legend in your own mind.

While you're at it, why not give yourself a masters degree in the studies of the high muckedty muck since you are the chancellor of Wannabe Brainiacs University

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nice try, but I'm not going to let you try and finagle out of what you said to me:

LOL. I have nothing to hide. You just have terrible reading comprehension skills. You have proven that repeatedly.

You said to me and I quote:

"Actually, the evidence that Paul gave that God did not "cast away all the Jews for their unbelief" was not some future event that will prove that, but rather he proved it by the fact that there was a remnant of saved, elect believers in his day, which included himself."​

Yes, I said that. What is wrong with what I said? He didn't cast them all away, right?

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What I'm saying is simply the same thing that Paul said. He asked if God had cast away His people which He foreknew, which was a reference to the religious Jews in Israel who believed in God in the times before the Gentiles started being grafted in, and he said "God forbid" and said that God did not cast them away and he used himself as evidence of that along with the rest of the remnant of believers in his day. And he said the rest who didn't believe were blinded (Romans 11:7). Is there anything about what I said here that you disagree with?

Furthermore, your statement above is contradictory to the written Scripture of Romans 11. Paul plainly stated that God put the "spirit of stupor" upon Paul's brethren the Jews so they would be spiritually blinded away from The Gospel.

Not upon all of them. Did God put the spirit of stupor upon Paul or the rest of the remnant of his time that were saved? No, of course not. So, why are you acting as if God put the "spirit of stupor" on all of Paul's brethren the Jews when that obviously is not the case?

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
KJV

You guys keep evading... that above Scripture in red by Apostle Paul. And there is no excuse for doing that.

What are you even talking about? I don't deny that God gave "the rest" who "were blinded" the spirit of slumber. Where did I say that? Nowhere. I'm simply saying He didn't do that to all of them and the evidence Paul gave for that was the fact that there was a remnant of believers, including him, that were not blinded and were not given the spirit of slumber.

 

[Davy]

And of course God's Word teaches they are illegitimate

I wouldn't use that idea, because it kind of mocks God's blessing upon Ishmael and his seed, for He told Hagar that 12 kings would come out of Ishmael's loins, and that's definitely a blessing to Hagar and her seed. Do you think God promised that because Ishmael was actually Abraham's firstborn? I think so. That actually is one the main arguments by the Islamic religious clerics still today; they claim the Jews stole Ishmael's birthright from God. When you see the kings and princes of Saudi Arabia, you are seeing God's promise to Ishmael about those kings his seed.

So sorry, I had no idea who I was dealing with. The big kahuna is in de house eh?

Lack of respect for elders is a sign of immaturity and bad manners.

Did you have to widen the door way to be able to get that big carnal minded head inside your house?

Yes of course those that don't see things exactly and precisely the way you do will burn in hell for all eternity!

As I said earlier there Einstein, in today's vernacular (street talk for the slower thinking wannabe brainiacs such as yourself), the Jews is a commonly used term to speak of israelites which is not necessarily intended to be bible talk.

As you were, carry on your perceived superiority complex which makes you a legend in your own mind.

While you're at it, why not give yourself a masters degree in the studies of the high muckedty muck since you are the chancellor of Wannabe Brainiacs University

Well, that's just a bunch of stupidity and ignorance shown by your words, not worth any real response because you haven't even learned proper manners yet, and instead act like a little child. Go play with your rattlers little child.

 

[Davy]

LOL. I have nothing to hide. You just have terrible reading comprehension skills. You have proven that repeatedly.


Yes, I said that. What is wrong with what I said? He didn't cast them all away, right?

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What I'm saying is simply the same thing that Paul said. He asked if God had cast away His people which He foreknew, which was a reference to the religious Jews in Israel who believed in God in the times before the Gentiles started being grafted in, and he said "God forbid" and said that God did not cast them away and he used himself as evidence of that along with the rest of the remnant of believers in his day. And he said the rest who didn't believe were blinded (Romans 11:7). Is there anything about what I said here that you disagree with?


Not upon all of them. Did God put the spirit of stupor upon Paul or the rest of the remnant of his time that were saved? No, of course not. So, why are you acting as if God put the "spirit of stupor" on all of Paul's brethren the Jews when that obviously is not the case?


What are you even talking about? I don't deny that God gave "the rest" who "were blinded" the spirit of slumber. Where did I say that? Nowhere. I'm simply saying He didn't do that to all of them and the evidence Paul gave for that was the fact that there was a remnant of believers, including him, that were not blinded and were not given the spirit of slumber.

You still... are not reading that Romans 11 Chapter properly about the separate groups Paul was pointing to:

1. "remnant according to the election of grace" = those of Old Testament history which God preserved unto Himself, AND... those Jews like Christ's Apostles, and Apostle Paul, and Christ's disciples, AND even today' Church joined with them! That means... NOT ALL JEWS were blinded by God.

God speaks of this "remnant" of Israel in many Old Testament Scriptures, especially in the Book of Isaiah.


2.
Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
KJV

The rest of Israel was blinded by God, and that applies not ONLY to the majority of Jews of the 3-tribe "house of Judah", but ALSO to the majority of the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" which were not known as Jews. In essence, Paul's reference to "the election" is only about a PORTION out of all 12 tribes that were PRESERVED BY GOD, and not blinded by Him.

We even see this with the Revelation 7 prophecy of God's end time sealing of the 144,000 Israelites out of 12 tribes of Israel. And then the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 is put for believing Gentiles sealed by God for the end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still... are not reading that Romans 11 Chapter properly about the separate groups Paul was pointing to:

1. "remnant according to the election of grace" = those of Old Testament history which God preserved unto Himself, AND... those Jews like Christ's Apostles, and Apostle Paul, and Christ's disciples, AND even today' Church joined with them! That means... NOT ALL JEWS were blinded by God.

God speaks of this "remnant" of Israel in many Old Testament Scriptures, especially in the Book of Isaiah.

Yes, Paul did allude to Old Testament saints when he alluded to the "seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal". But, did you not read verse 5?

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

He clearly said there was also a remnant "at the present time" he was writing the book of Romans and he included himself in that remnant and used that as evidence to show that God did not cast away His people that He foreknew. He did not cast away all of Israel since there was a remnant who were not cast away (who were not blinded).

2.
Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
KJV

The rest of Israel was blinded by God, and that applies not ONLY to the majority of Jews of the 3-tribe "house of Judah", but ALSO to the majority of the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" which were not known as Jews. In essence, Paul's reference to "the election" is only about a PORTION out of all 12 tribes that were PRESERVED BY GOD, and not blinded by Him.

Paul was contrasting the remnant of believers in Israel "at the present time", that included himself, with the rest (everyone else) in Israel who were all blinded. There's no reason to bring in an unnecessary level of complexity to this. Paul was referring to all Israelites there. All of them were either saved or blinded at that time, but Paul then went on to say that he hoped to help save some of those who had been blinded after the gospel went to the Gentiles by way of making them jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles (Romans 11:11-14).

 

[PinSeeker]

I've asked this question before, @Davy, but I'll ask it again: Who is the true Jew of God? Who is God's Israel? Before you answer, you might want to read again what Paul says in:

• Romans 2:28-29 ~ "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."
• Romans 9:6-8 ~ "it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
• Romans 9:23-24 ~ "in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."
• and Romans 11 ~ "...if some of the branches were broken off, and you (Gentiles), although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree" (v.17) "...even they (Jews), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again" (v.23) "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved." (vv.25-26)

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Davy]

Yes, Paul did allude to Old Testament saints when he alluded to the "seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal". But, did you not read verse 5?

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

He clearly said there was also a remnant "at the present time" he was writing the book of Romans and he included himself in that remnant and used that as evidence to show that God did not cast away His people that He foreknew. He did not cast away all of Israel since there was a remnant who were not cast away (who were not blinded).

"So too", means in addition... to those Old Testament saints which God preserved. Those, and the believing Jews like Paul and the Jewish disciples of his day, and ALL LATER BELIEVERS, of both Israel and Gentiles, are under that "grace". You're just not grasping how that "grace" the "remnant" of Israel was under then is also the same "grace" for all believers on Jesus Christ, even to this day. So even though Paul does not say the word Church there at that time, that's really who all that election of grace applies to.

Paul was contrasting the remnant of believers in Israel "at the present time", that included himself, with the rest (everyone else) in Israel who were all blinded. There's no reason to bring in an unnecessary level of complexity to this. Paul was referring to all Israelites there. All of them were either saved or blinded at that time, but Paul then went on to say that he hoped to help save some of those who had been blinded after the gospel went to the Gentiles by way of making them jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles (Romans 11:11-14).

With those spiritually blinded away from The Gospel, Paul was pointing to his Jewish brethren. And one can still see that in today's time, because still the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah. This is not bringing in a level of complexity. It is only your attempt to HIDE it, for some reason. I suspect it might be because you yourself are Jewish, and you want to present some special favor for yourself and the Jews from God, when The Gospel Salvation is about Faith on Jesus Christ, and not seed birth. Or did you not know that believing Gentiles inherit WITH... Abraham, as written by Apostle Paul in Galatians 3?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"So too", means in addition... to those Old Testament saints which God preserved.

Right. I'm not saying otherwise.

Those, and the believing Jews like Paul and the Jewish disciples of his day, and ALL LATER BELIEVERS, of both Israel and Gentiles, are under that "grace".

Right. I'm not saying otherwise.

You're just not grasping how that "grace" the "remnant" of Israel was under then is also the same "grace" for all believers on Jesus Christ, even to this day.

I am grasping that because I agree with that. Your poor reading comprehension skills are just not allowing you to understand what I'm saying.

So even though Paul does not say the word Church there at that time, that's really who all that election of grace applies to.

Agree.

With those spiritually blinded away from The Gospel, Paul was pointing to his Jewish brethren.

Yes, but in verse 14 he said he hoped to lead some of them to salvation. Do you think they were blinded permanently for the rest of their lives? That's not what Paul indicated in Romans 11:11-14. Then in verse 23 he said if they did not continue to be in unbelief they could be grafted in again.

And one can still see that in today's time, because still the majority of Jews today still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah.

Yes, but God wants them all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and offers salvation to all of them (Titus 2:11), so it's not as if God is withholding salvation from them or ever has.

This is not bringing in a level of complexity. It is only your attempt to HIDE it, for some reason.

What am I hiding exactly?

I suspect it might be because you yourself are Jewish,

LOL! No. Not ethnically or religiously, anyway. But, I am a spiritual Jew (Romans 2:28-29).

and you want to present some special favor for yourself and the Jews from God, when The Gospel Salvation is about Faith on Jesus Christ, and not seed birth.

Wrong. Do you never tire of being wrong in your speculations?

Or did you not know that believing Gentiles inherit WITH... Abraham, as written by Apostle Paul in Galatians 3?

I have said that hundreds of times to dispensationalists on this forum and forums like this, so, yes, I am well aware of that. You clearly have no idea of what I believe.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

wikipedia.org

Definitely a link worth the time to read in full. Though, reading in part is enlightening as well .

For instance,how often do we read some say the laws of Moses no longer apply.
If we consider the moral laws of God,the ten commandments, we might consider that argument dismisses Jesus condensing the 10 into his own 2.

Love God with all our hearts and minds. And our neighbor as ourselves.

Eastern Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, Lutheran Churches, Reformed churches and Methodist churches all believe and teach that the ten commandments continue to bind believers.

As relates to Suppressionism, it can be argued that due to Apostle Paul's focus on Gentiles being included in the saving grace of God that he himself espoused what today is labeled, Replacement Theology.

From the link:
"Paul's views on the Jews are complex, but he is generally regarded as the first person to make the claim that by not accepting claims of Jesus's divinity, non-believing Jews disqualified themselves from salvation.[19]"

Also, besides Roman Catholics as well, many Protestant Denominations hold to the tenets of RT.
Lutherans, Reformed, and LDS.

And of course there are types of Suppressionism.

So, it's there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

wikipedia.org

Definitely a link worth the time to read in full. Though, reading in part is enlightening as well .

For instance,how often do we read some say the laws of Moses no longer apply.
If we consider the moral laws of God,the ten commandments, we might consider that argument dismisses Jesus condensing the 10 into his own 2.

Love God with all our hearts and minds. And our neighbor as ourselves.

Eastern Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, Lutheran Churches, Reformed churches and Methodist churches all believe and teach that the ten commandments continue to bind believers.

As relates to Suppressionism, it can be argued that due to Apostle Paul's focus on Gentiles being included in the saving grace of God that he himself espoused what today is labeled, Replacement Theology.

From the link:
"Paul's views on the Jews are complex, but he is generally regarded as the first person to make the claim that by not accepting claims of Jesus's divinity, non-believing Jews disqualified themselves from salvation.[19]"

Also, besides Roman Catholics as well, many Protestant Denominations hold to the tenets of RT.
Lutherans, Reformed, and LDS.

And of course there are types of Suppressionism.

So, it's there.

I don't feel like reading that link right now, but I'm just trying to understand your point here. Can you briefly summarize the point you are intending to make here? Are you trying to argue against something you are calling "Replacement Theology"?

 

[Davy]

Yes, but in verse 14 he said he hoped to lead some of them to salvation. Do you think they were blinded permanently for the rest of their lives? That's not what Paul indicated in Romans 11:11-14. Then in verse 23 he said if they did not continue to be in unbelief they could be grafted in again.

Well, now that's where you have not been properly reading what I have been posting about that. That has been my point all long what Apostle Paul said later in Romans 11:25-32 for those in Christ to not be conceited against the unbelieving Jews, because the blindness God put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews will remain UNTIL... the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And then Paul quotes Isaiah about all Israel being saved in final. So instead hanging on the Romans 11:11-14 verse section, continue to that Romans 11:25-32 section to know what is prophesied in final for the Jews.

What that Romans 11:25-32 section means is that all unbelievers MUST still choose to believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. But because those God put that "spirit of slumber" upon cannot come to The Gospel and believe yet, means when that "spirit of slumber" is removed by God in final, THEN... will be their 1st opportunity to 'hear' The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear, and then believe on Jesus Christ, and be saved. That is to happen when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, according to Apostle Paul (Rom.11:25).

The result when that fulness of the Gentiles be come in, which points to the time of Christ's future return, will cause those unbelieving Jews to feel shame when they see Him, that is if they are truly of the seed of Israel and are of God's chosen calling like Paul said in Rom.11:29. The latter part of the Zechariah 12 chapter reveals this, as also does what Jesus showed in Luke 23:27-30:

Zech 12:9-14
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

With that underlined part, Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 54 with His parable of the barren woman which represents Apostle Paul's "chaste virgin" idea, those who remain faithful waiting on Christ's future return and do not fall away. Those "Daughters of Jerusalem" of course represent those Jews in Jerusalem under God's "spirit of slumber" all the way up to Christ's future return.

How then, can those blinded be held accountable until God removes their spiritual blindness? That's my point. When Jesus returns, that is when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and their blindness removed, and only then will they know they had been deceived, and will feel shame. That is, for those Jews who actually love The LORD. There are Jews that are not true bloodline Judah that crept in of the Canaanites long ago, and also various foreigners of other nations, like Idumea, etc. I cannot say foreigners who claim to be Jews will all convert to Christ, but I believe any of them that do believe on Jesus Christ will be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, now that's where you have not been properly reading what I have been posting about that. That has been my point all long what Apostle Paul said later in Romans 11:25-32 for those in Christ to not be conceited against the unbelieving Jews, because the blindness God put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews will remain UNTIL... the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And then Paul quotes Isaiah about all Israel being saved in final. So instead hanging on the Romans 11:11-14 verse section, continue to that Romans 11:25-32 section to know what is prophesied in final for the Jews.

No, I'm not going to just act as if Romans 11:11-14 does not exist. It helps establish the context of the rest of the chapter.

What that Romans 11:25-32 section means is that all unbelievers MUST still choose to believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. But because those God put that "spirit of slumber" upon cannot come to The Gospel and believe yet, means when that "spirit of slumber" is removed by God in final, THEN... will be their 1st opportunity to 'hear' The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear, and then believe on Jesus Christ, and be saved. That is to happen when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, according to Apostle Paul (Rom.11:25).

The result when that fulness of the Gentiles be come in, which points to the time of Christ's future return, will cause those unbelieving Jews to feel shame when they see Him, that is if they are truly of the seed of Israel and are of God's chosen calling like Paul said in Rom.11:29. The latter part of the Zechariah 12 chapter reveals this, as also does what Jesus showed in Luke 23:27-30:

Zech 12:9-14
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

With that underlined part, Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 54 with His parable of the barren woman which represents Apostle Paul's "chaste virgin" idea, those who remain faithful waiting on Christ's future return and do not fall away. Those "Daughters of Jerusalem" of course represent those Jews in Jerusalem under God's "spirit of slumber" all the way up to Christ's future return.

How then, can those blinded be held accountable until God removes their spiritual blindness? That's my point. When Jesus returns, that is when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and their blindness removed, and only then will they know they had been deceived, and will feel shame. That is, for those Jews who actually love The LORD. There are Jews that are not true bloodline Judah that crept in of the Canaanites long ago, and also various foreigners of other nations, like Idumea, etc. I cannot say foreigners who claim to be Jews will all convert to Christ, but I believe any of them that do believe on Jesus Christ will be saved.

All people, including all Israelites, have had the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel over the past almost 2,000 years. You are not understanding that none of those who were blinded in Paul's day and none who have been blinded since were blinded permanently, but they were blinded so that they could have the gospel preached to them and be shown how even the Gentiles are saved by way of the gospel of Christ, and that should provoke them to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. And a good number of them have been saved over the past almost 2,000 years. People focus on how many of them have rejected the gospel without thinking about the fact that a good number of them have accepted it. Even in Paul's day there were 3,000 who accepted the gospel on the day of Pentecost and then thousands more in the weeks and months that followed.