Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib

[WPM]

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

That "sudden destruction" is a pointer to God's "consuming fire" that will burn man's works off this earth, like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Now for those who need to go back to grammar school and re-learn their English, a simple reading in The Old Testament prophets, and even in Christ's Book of Revelation, the earth will STILL EXIST after that 2 Peter 3:10 "consuming fire" event by God on that last day of this world, the "day of the Lord".

And it's easy to tell those Biblically illiterate who cannot understand English about that, because at the end of Hebrews 12 we are specifically shown that God's "consuming fire" will only burn the things off this earth that can be shaken, so that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. And the Zechariah 14 Chapter, which is about Christ's future return back to this earth, and thereafter, reveals His reign over the nations ON THIS EARTH that will remain.

But one cannot convince the Biblically lazy... about this, simply because they cannot think for themselves to know that if Christ and His elect are reigning over the nations ON EARTH after His future coming, then the 2 Peter 3:10 verse DOES NOT MEAN THIS EARTH WILL BE LITERALLY TURNED INTO AN ASTEROID BELT BY GOD'S CONSUMING FIRE EVENT! (That KJV word "elements" in the Greek means a world time, an age, not the physics atomic weight of material elements.)

This is a typical evasive Premil response. Once again, you explain away literal explicit NT passage after passage with your mistaken fixation of Revelation 20 and Zechariah 14.

1. Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
2. Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
3. Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
4. Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
5. Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
6. Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
7. Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

 

[Marilyn C]

7th Trumpet timing, actually. But that judgment on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes is only about the separation of His sheep from the goats (unsaved). The real Judgement, the Great White Throne Judgment, only happens after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. And that will be the Judgment to determine which flesh-born people are cast into the "lake of fire" along with the devil, and the abode of hell, and death, per the end of Rev.20.

The word `Day` in Greek and Hebrew mean a specific day or a period of time.

Rev. 6: 12 - 17 reveals the specific Day whereas Joel 2: 1 & 2 shows the start of the Day as a period of time.

 

[Marilyn C]

Sorry, but the above is not really correct.

The "day of Christ" is the same... events and timing of the Old Testament "day of the Lord". In 2 Thess.2:2 the KJV has it as "day of Christ", but in some Greek manuscripts it is not the Greek word for Christ there, but instead Greek kurios, which means 'Lord', and thus "the day of the Lord".

Same thing in 1 Corinthians 1:8 which has multiple Greek words, kurios (Lord) and christos (Christ). Same in 1 Cor.5:5 and 2 Cor.1:14.

In 1 Thess.5:2, Apostle Paul shows the "sudden destruction" from God will come on that "day of the Lord", which Paul was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets about the last day of this world. Same idea by Apostle Peter about God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth on that "day of the Lord", per 2 Peter 3:10.

The Pre-trib Rapture School attempts to 'create' a false time for that "day of the Lord" as if it happens 'during'... the "great tribulation" time when it does not. Instead, it will happen on the day of Christ's future return immediately AFTER... the "great tribulation".

`But you brethren are not in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

`The great day of the LORD is near; it is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; there the mighty men shall cry out.
That day is a day of wrath,
A Day of trouble and distress,
A Day of devastation and desolation,
A Day of darkness and gloominess,
A Day of clouds and thick darkness,....` (Zeph. 1: 14 & 15)

 

[TribulationSigns]

`But you brethren are not in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

`The great day of the LORD is near; it is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; there the mighty men shall cry out.
That day is a day of wrath,
A Day of trouble and distress,
A Day of devastation and desolation,
A Day of darkness and gloominess,
A Day of clouds and thick darkness,....` (Zeph. 1: 14 & 15)

Actually, the day of the Lord comes with the Judgment of God upon His unfaithful Congregation first, after the death of Two Witnesses when the Spirit of Life come upon them to stand up and prophesy judgment upon the Church that has become desolate. Then the world with the Second Coming and WTJ. Remember, the House of God (ie. Church) must be judged first before the Second Coming. It started with the "day of clouds, thick darkness, gloominess, smoke, etc. when we read:

1.) Battle of Gog and Magog, the invading army of counterfeit Christians into Churches to spoil and prey on the Gospel:

Eze 38:9-12
(9) Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
(10) Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
(11) And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
(12) To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

2.) The army of counterfeit Christians with the Spirit of Locusts with smokes that block the Sun and Air of the Gospel:

Rev 9:2-4
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.sd

3.) Total darkness within the New Testament Congregation, where false prophets and christs sits (rule) preventing professed Christians from receiving the Truth because they refuse to repent of their deeds.

Rev 16:7-11
(7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
(8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
(9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The Day of the Lord represents the wrath of the Lamb, beginning with His unfaithful congregation, as we will still be on Earth to witness it. Then, at the last trumpet, the unsaved world will face judgment, while the faithful Elect who are alive and remain will be gathered together in the air to meet the coming Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Day of the LORD is the Lord God Almighty in judgement. (Rev. 16: 7)

Jesus took our judgment and thus we are not in that judgment time.

What are you talking about? Who said anything about us being judged by God's wrath? We are going to escape His wrath on the day of the Lord which will come unexpectedly when Jesus returns and will bring "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". Paul said "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." (1 Thess 5:4). That shows that we will still be here when that day arrives, but it won't catch us completely off guard like it will unbelievers and we will escape it by way of being changed to put on bodily immortality and by being caught up to safety when we meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

`But you brethren are not in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

`The great day of the LORD is near; it is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; there the mighty men shall cry out.
That day is a day of wrath,
A Day of trouble and distress,
A Day of devastation and desolation,
A Day of darkness and gloominess,
A Day of clouds and thick darkness,....` (Zeph. 1: 14 & 15)

Where does that passage say that we will be taken off of the earth years before that day comes? Nowhere. We will be taken off of the earth right before His wrath comes down on that day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The time difference between the resurrection/rapture event and the great tribulation beginning is not known.

resurrection/rapture event...........................................unknown time passes ...............................until the great tribulation begins.

No, what is unknown is any scripture which teaches that "the resurrection/rapture event" occurs before "the great tribulation begins".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

We can see from the wording of the text that this passage is describing is one unitary event. Paul correlates the rescue of God's people after coming of the Lord, with the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the wicked at the same time. He was talking to Christians here in Thessaloniki and expressing the same comfort for the same overall climatic event. He is assuring God’s people that this day when Christ comes as a thief in the night will not catch them unexpected. They will not be sleeping. They will be awake. He is exhorting them to “watch and be sober.”

Exactly. There is no basis whatsoever for separating 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 from 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9 as if those are referring to different events. Notice in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 that it says "But, ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief". That implies that we will still be here on that day, but we will not experience the "sudden destruction" that unbelievers will. Instead, we will be changed to put on bodily immortality and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What are you talking about? Who said anything about us being judged by God's wrath? We are going to escape His wrath on the day of the Lord which will come unexpectedly when Jesus returns and will bring "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". Paul said "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." (1 Thess 5:4). That shows that we will still be here when that day arrives, but it won't catch us completely off guard like it will unbelievers and we will escape it by way of being changed to put on bodily immortality and by being caught up to safety when we meet the Lord in the air.

You are not quite correct.

The beginning of sorrows speaks to the travailing woman (the Church) as she is in pain because of the time of trouble in God's congregation. It is a reference to the end times when the church thinks it has peace and is safe, when in reality it comes under the judgment of God. Consider the prophecy of 1st Thessalonians 5.

1st Thessalonians 5:1-4

• "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
• For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
• For when they shall say, Peace and Safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
• But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

God is not talking about peace and safety in the world here. He is not talking about world peace here. That word translated travail (odin) is the exact same Greek word that is translated sorrows in Matthew 24. This is the beginning of travail, struggle or tribulation in the church, when false prophets abound and professed Christians foolishly think they have peace with God and are safe. But they are not safe behind church walls, they are under the wrath of God for their rebellion. Right in the church! As Christ coming to THEM (not the world) "as a thief" in the night, they shall be broken when they least expect it.

But those who truly know the Lord are not in darkness that this day shall overtake them as a thief. Note that verse 6 says:

1Th 5:6

• (6) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

This is not the Second Coming yet but the hour of judgment upon the Whore that we are suppose to watch. This is just as Christ warned the church in this very same Matthew 24 when speaking about this coming Great tribulation and great apostasy--to Watch!

Matthew 24:43

• "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Does the Lord talk about the world being broken up? No, it is God's house where the rebellion is that is broken up! The house is the church, and if we do not watch, but sleep without the Spirit to keep our lamps burning, we will find that our house has been broken into by the thief, as judgment "DIRECTLY" from God.

And as in the parable of the 10 virgins, when the call is made to those sleep, that the bridegroom cometh, we will be found without sufficient oil (Spirit) to light the way to the wedding.

So, you misunderstood, thinking the verses were referring to the Last Day when Christ returns as a sudden destruction. No it does not take place on the Last Day. It takes place when the Lord comes to judge the unfaithful Church, WHILE WE ARE STILL HERE, witnessing the fall of the unfaithful church for one hour, Revelation 18:8-10.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are not quite correct.

Haha. This should be fun.

The beginning of sorrows speaks to the travailing woman (the Church) as she is in pain because of the time of trouble in God's congregation. It is a reference to the end times when the church thinks it has peace and is safe, when in reality it comes under the judgment of God. Consider the prophecy of 1st Thessalonians 5.

1st Thessalonians 5:1-4

• "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
• For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
• For when they shall say, Peace and Safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
• But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

God is not talking about peace and safety in the world here.

I agree. It's about people thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. Nowhere does Paul say anything about the state of the world in 1 Thessalonians 5. Instead, he talks about the spiritual status of individuals. All people are either in spiritual light or spiritual darkness. All people are either with Christ or against Christ (Matthew 12:30).

It is in the CHURCH!

Paul is not just talking about the church in 1 Thessalonians 5. All unbelievers are in spiritual darkness. Why do you try to limit the scope of what he was talking about? Look at 2 Peter 3:10-12 where Peter talks about the same event. Does that look like it's only talking about the sudden destruction of people in the church or of all believers on the earth? It's clearly talking about the sudden destruction of all unbelievers. You make things more complicated than they are.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree. It's about people thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath.

Good!

Nowhere does Paul say anything about the state of the world in 1 Thessalonians 5.

Good!

Instead, he talks about the spiritual status of individuals. All people are either in spiritual light or spiritual darkness. All people are either with Christ or against Christ (Matthew 12:30).

Wrong. Not according to Scripture. The verses you appeared to ignore in my post are God specifically talks about the judgment of HIS HOUSE. Those in the CHURCH first. Not the world.

Paul is not just talking about the church in 1 Thessalonians 5. All unbelievers are in spiritual darkness. Why do you try to limit the scope of what he was talking about?

You already forgot?

1Pe 4:17
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The judgment will come to the church first. Then the world. Selah!

Look at 2 Peter 3:10-12 where Peter talks about the same event. Does that look like it's only talking about the sudden destruction of people in the church or of all believers on the earth? It's clearly talking about the sudden destruction of all unbelievers. You make things more complicated than they are.

Not at all. The day of the Lord is the Wrath of God (or the Lamb), right? Then, where will He direct His Wrath at first? Of course, it will be directed at the unbelievers of the congregation (for one hour). Then on the last day, when Christ shall appear visible in the air, there will be judgment for the unbelievers of the world.

Do you realize that the Lord coming as a thief / The Day of the Lord / the day of vengeance are all one and the same event, starting with the Church (symbolically Jerusalem) compassed by armies?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You already forgot?

1Pe 4:17
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The judgment will come to the church first. Then the world. Selah!

We're talking about the physical destruction of all of God's enemies here. That verse has nothing to do with the day of the Lord when Jesus comes as a thief to take vengeance on all unbelievers (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Not at all. The day of the Lord is the Wrath of God (or the Lamb), right?

Right. Obviously. It will bring "sudden destruction" upon ALL who are in spiritual darkness and "they shall not escape". When you read 2 Peter 3:10-12, you can see why Paul said that.

Then, where will He direct His Wrath at first? Of course, it will be directed at the unbelievers of the congregation (for one hour). Then on the last day, when Christ shall appear visible in the air, there will be judgment for the unbelievers of the world.

Do you realize that the Lord coming as a thief / The Day of the Lord / the day of vengeance are all one and the same event, starting with the Church (symbolically Jerusalem) compassed by armies?

Wrong. Peter is very clear. The day of the Lord will bring the Lord's wrath upon the entire earth. It's a global event that will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and then immediately result in the "sudden destruction" of all of God's enemies and not just those in the church who have fallen away.

 

[TribulationSigns]

We're talking about the physical destruction of all of God's enemies here. That verse has nothing to do with the day of the Lord when Jesus comes as a thief to take vengeance on all unbelievers (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).


Right. Obviously. It will bring "sudden destruction" upon ALL who are in spiritual darkness and "they shall not escape". When you read 2 Peter 3:10-12, you can see why Paul said that.


Wrong. Peter is very clear. The day of the Lord will bring the Lord's wrath upon the entire earth. It's a global event that will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and then immediately result in the "sudden destruction" of all of God's enemies and not just those in the church who have fallen away.

You need to learn how to reconcile the verses. God is clear on when the thief of the night occurs, which you seem to have overlooked because you like to believe that the day of the Lord must take place in one single day with Earth being destroyed at once...after the judgment of the church, huh? Please read again:

"But those who truly know the Lord are not in darkness that this day shall overtake them as a thief. Note that verse 6 says:​

​

1Th 5:6​

• (6) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

This is not the Second Coming yet but the hour of judgment upon the Whore that we are suppose to watch where the others sleep!!! This is just as Christ warned the church in this very same Matthew 24 when speaking about this coming Great tribulation and great apostasy--to Watch! Matthew confirmed this:​

​

Matthew 24:43​

• "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Did the Lord talk about the Second Coming and the destruction of the Earth here? No! Does the Lord talk about the world being broken up? No! It is God's house where the rebellion is that is broken up! The house is the church, and if we do not watch, but sleep without the Spirit to keep our lamps burning, we will find that our house has been broken into by the thief, as judgment "DIRECTLY" from God. This will take place FIRST before the Second Coming and yet is part of the Day of the Lord because it is the wrath of the Lamb, a day of vengeance. Starting with the Church, boy.​

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let me ask you this question, Spiritual Israelite, to see if you fully understood Revelation 6:

Rev 6:12-17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Is the Lord talking about the Second Coming and the Judgment of the world here? Or is it about the judgment of the New Testament congregation, the Church? Do you realize that sun, moon, stars, fig tree, and mountain and island all pointed to Churches, spiritually? Look at what woman has in Revelation 12. Sun, moon and stars..

Now, the mountains and islands are used in Scripture to refer to kingdoms, and often are the representation of the Lord's Kingdom. And the mountain because in the past they were also illustrating a places of protection. Those who are weary of sin flee as a bird to their mountain because that is where the protection of God is. It is the lofty place of safety from attack, and thus it is often used to represent the protection of God's kingdom. e.g., We are those in the mountains that go forth to bring the good news of the gospel (Isaiah 52:7).

Isaiah 51:5

• "My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust."

Isles are the same as Islands. Islands here represent the Lord's kingdom. As also seen in Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:9

• "Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee."

Mountains often have the same representation of His kingdom:

Psalms 87:1-3

• "His foundation is in the holy mountains.
• The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
• Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah."

also...

Psalms 11:12

• "...In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
• For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart."

Psalms 121:1-2

• "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
• My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."

The word translated hill is the exact same word translated mountain. Mount Zion represents the kingdom of God. Thus when we read Revelation 16:20, in its proper context, and in harmoneous relationship to the whole Bible, we see this is God's judgment specifically on the unfaithful church, whom He had warned of their removal before. They are being removed as a consequence of their disobedience.

Revelation 16:20

• "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

See? Compare this with what God warned the "fallen church" that He would do as a judgment if they didn't repent and do the first works:

Revelation 2:5

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

This is the fate of the fallen church, to be moved out of its place. For example, as symbolized also in Revelation chapter 6:

Revelation 6:14

• "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Their place was as a representation of the kingdom of God (as Israel's was before it fell), but because of their abominations, God's spirit is removed from them that they are no longer houses of God. In that verse, the heaven departing like a scroll "signifies" the Kingdom of Heaven is gone from them (as with Israel before them -Matthew 21:43), and it is done like a scroll closed to "signify" the word of God being shut up to them. A famine of hearing the word of God (Amos 8). Just like in Revelation 9, where people seek death in order to be saved but no longer find it. It is just God has removed the kingdom of Heaven away from them like He did with the Jews at the Cross. This is the fulfillment of what God promised the church in Revelation chapter 2 would happen if they didn't repent of their evil works. God's judgment upon the churches is realized.

Now that we have covered mountains and islands here. Who do you really think the kings of the earth, great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondmen and free man, the Lord is talking about here that seek protection in the mountains when the day of His Wrath comes upon them, hummm? What mountain is it? Let hear from you if you can biblically explain this.

Revelation 6:15-17

(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If you think it will take place on the last day where "all" people will try to flee to Smoky Mountain, Rocky Mountain, or Alps and cry "to" the moutains and rocks for protection? Humm.. come on! Nope... the judgment of the church comes first and this is what Revelation 6 is about!

That was the 6th seal, right? What happen next in the seventh seal?

Rev 8:1
(1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Sounds like a Second Coming to you yet?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need to learn how to reconcile the verses.

That is exactly what I have done. But, you try to turn something simple into something convoluted, as you tend to do at times. You cannot get around what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 no matter how hard you try. And, yes, you will try. And fail. Boy.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That is exactly what I have done. But, you try to turn something simple into something convoluted, as you tend to do at times.

No, you still refuse to acknowledge that the Day of the Lord/The Wrath of the Lamb/The day of Vengeance are one and the same, which started with the judgment of His House first. So, as I often said, the Lord Judges, and I am comfortable with it.

You cannot get around what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 no matter how hard you try. And, yes, you will try. And fail. Boy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you still refuse to acknowledge that the Day of the Lord/The Wrath of the Lamb/The day of Vengeance are one and the same, which started with the judgment of His House first. So, as I often said, the Lord Judges, and I am comfortable with it.

I will not acknowledge your false teaching.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I will not acknowledge your false teaching.

So you won't acknowledge Christ's teaching, okay, got it.

 

[Marilyn C]

Actually, the day of the Lord comes with the Judgment of God upon His unfaithful Congregation first, after the death of Two Witnesses when the Spirit of Life come upon them to stand up and prophesy judgment upon the Church that has become desolate. Then the world with the Second Coming and WTJ. Remember, the House of God (ie. Church) must be judged first before the Second Coming. It started with the "day of clouds, thick darkness, gloominess, smoke, etc. when we read:

1.) Battle of Gog and Magog, the invading army of counterfeit Christians into Churches to spoil and prey on the Gospel:

Eze 38:9-12
(9) Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
(10) Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
(11) And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
(12) To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

2.) The army of counterfeit Christians with the Spirit of Locusts with smokes that block the Sun and Air of the Gospel:

Rev 9:2-4
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.sd

3.) Total darkness within the New Testament Congregation, where false prophets and christs sits (rule) preventing professed Christians from receiving the Truth because they refuse to repent of their deeds.

Rev 16:7-11
(7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
(8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
(9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The Day of the Lord represents the wrath of the Lamb, beginning with His unfaithful congregation, as we will still be on Earth to witness it. Then, at the last trumpet, the unsaved world will face judgment, while the faithful Elect who are alive and remain will be gathered together in the air to meet the coming Christ.

Hi TS,

I hear you that there is an unfaithful congregation. However, the true believers will be caught up to the Lord, while those unfaithful will have to go through the tribulation. The Holy Spirit will have been removed from building the Body of Christ and those unfaithful are just people of the nations that need to turn to God. And we see a great multitude of them who were dying of heat, hunger or thirst turn to God. (Rev. 7: 16) They will finally go on the New Earth as peoples of the nations. (Rev. 21: 24)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hi TS,

I hear you that there is an unfaithful congregation. However, the true believers will be caught up to the Lord, while those unfaithful will have to go through the tribulation.

Where do you find that in Scripture? It is a doctrine that I have taught for many years in the past. I know it very well enough that it is indeed a false doctrine after years of study.

The Holy Spirit will have been removed from building the Body of Christ and those unfaithful are just people of the nations that need to turn to God.

That is false. The Scripture does not say this. It is your private interpreation that you believe the Holy Spirit will leave the building, where the faithful will be physically removed from Earth. I say that your whole idea is obfuscated and twisted.

2nd Thessalonians 2:7

• "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way."

Why was this spirit restrained, Marilyn? Was it so the elect could be sealed? You never seem to practice the sound hermeneutic of comparing scripture with scripture to interpret scripture. And once again, you completely ignore the context in Revelation 7:1, which is that this wind that will hurt the earth and sea, is only being restrained so that all Israel can be saved/sealed. And where does God talk about all Israel being saved? Isn't it in Romans chapter 11, where God speaks of the Gentiles coming into the Israel Covenant Olive Tree, and then saying "THUSLY" all Israel shall be saved. And so, or in this manner all Israel shall be saved. Selah! That's what it says. It’s the New Testament Church age. And "LOW AND BEHOLD" we read that God restrained Satan at that time so that he could spoil (seize by right of conquest) Satan's house, sealing the election of Israel. Imagine that! Satan was bound so that God could seal/save those whom Satan held captive. And where is Satan bound? In the bottomless pit! Total harmony with God's word of restraint of the evil spirit.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-8

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Restraineth) will let (Restrain), until he be taken out of the way.
• And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

Now you tell me. What Spirit is this that is being restrained by God (in the New Testament period), and will continue to be restrained until he who restrains it (Only God could) is taken out of the way (literally, out of the midst). What holy temple is being spoken about in this chapter, and what spirit is being restrained from taking a seat there until "He that restrains is taken out of the midst?" Doesn't that spirit come from the pit? And don't the four angels lose it?

It's total consistency with truth, and total enmity with all the things you teach concerning what God is restraining so that His servants could be sealed. After God secured all of the Elect through the Two Witnesses' testimony (since the Cross), salvation is over. The time of winter and sabbath has come. He removes His restraining hand so that the spirit of Satan can be revealed through the false prophets and christs to deceive those people IN THE CONGREGATION who have NOT YET sealed by God. They may seek salvation but will not find it. They will not realize that but its too late for them. Which is why Christ warned:

Mat 24:19-25
(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(25) Behold, I have told you before.

God is not referring to any difficulty in fleeing from Jerusalem to literal mountains, as many 70AD people believe. Instead, we are being warned about the TIMING of their flight, not the hardships involved. In other words, pray that it is not "at these times" when you are seeking salvation. Selah!

This warning is not about the literal Sabbath days, whether Saturday or Sunday, or about the literal winter months. Winter symbolizes a time when the harvest (sealing all Elect) is finished and nothing more grows in the Kingdom of God. The Sabbath, a day of rest, signifies a time when men can no longer work to promote salvation in the kingdom anymore from God's perspective. Why? Because it is the period in which God judges His unfaithful church, and they will not be able to achieve salvation during the loosening of Satan (whom God uses for this purpose).

But AFTER all the Elect are secured, as stated in Revelation 7:1-4, can the winds of judgment begin. This is for the judgment of the whore, not the world. This must take place right before the Second Coming...and yes, the rapture of the Elect.