Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib

[Spiritual Israelite]

For example.

The NT says this.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The OT says this.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Amils, such as yourself, only go by what the NT says here rather than what the OT and the NT combined says here. IOW, per Amil, regardless what Zechariah 14 says, what the NT says trumps it rather than finding a way to square both testaments instead of pitting one testament against the other. As if one testament is more holy writ than the other one. Or as if one testament is holy writ, the other isn't.

There are several passages in the NT which do not indicate any mortal, unbelieving survivors of Christ's return (Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:7,10-12, Revelation 19:17-18) but somehow Zechariah 14 trumps them all?

Why wouldn't you instead question why all those NT passages teach something different than what you think is taught in the Zechariah 14 passage? Why change what all of those other passages are saying in favor of your interpretation of Zechariah 14 rather than taking a closer look at Zechariah 14 to see why it does not agree with all of those other passages?

All of the passages I referenced are literal, straightforward passages. But, Zechariah 14 is not straightforward like those passages are. It is speaking of the same "day" or time period during which things describe in Zechariah 12 and 13 are fulfilled and we know that both Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:7 are quoted with a first coming context rather than a second coming context (see John 19:37 and Matthew 26:31). That should tell you something about the time period that Zechariah 14 is related to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unlike Amils who mainly only go by what the NT says as opposed to what the OT and NT says combined, I mainly reason things according to the latter.

This is not true. Yes, we allow the NT to shed light on the OT whenever possible because that's a wise thing to do. Who can deny that? Do you not ever do that? But, you act as if we Amils completely ignore the OT. No, we do not. We just make sure that our understanding of it doesn't contradict anything written in the NT, unlike Premils.

For example, our belief that all of the dead will be raised at the same time is partly based on Daniel 12:2. Some try to say that Daniel 12;2 does not refer to the resurrection of all of the dead because it talks about many or a multitude being resurrected. But, we know from John 5:28-29 that it will be all of the dead being resurrected when that hour arrives that Jesus said is coming. So, the NT sheds light on the OT in that case. But, Daniel 12:2 contains a detail that is not given in John 5:28-29 which is that the "life" inherited at that time by believers will be "everlasting" and the condemnation that unbelievers receive at that time is also everlasting. So, this is one example where we use what the OT and NT say combined to help form our doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You keep saying stuff like this yet you have failed to substantiate this for years? This is all your own private interpretation to support the error of Premillennialism. Your MO is to spiritualize everything that exposes your teaching. Nothing is ever safe with you. You twist text after text that interferes with your error. You have no credible hermeneutics.



You build your house on sand and then you wonder why it crumbles every time it is tested.

Exactly. How can the day of the Lord refer to "an era of time" when Paul clearly said that upon its unexpected arrival as a thief in the night it will bring "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3)? How does a sudden event turn into an era of time (1,000+ years)? That's a case of someone blatantly twisting scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

So you are amil ?

Call me whatever you want, a pre-trib rapture nor a 1,000 year millennial kingdom on this exists in scripture, they're man made fairy tales

Also, you did not respond to whether 1Thessalonians5:10 is the resurrection/rapture or not.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Your claim is false I did respond previously

Once again no pre-trib rapture is seen below, it's only in your imagination

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11KJV
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Douggg]

Once again no pre-trib rapture is seen below, it's only in your imagination

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11KJV
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Is verse 10 a resurrection/rapture event - but not pre-trib ?

 

[Truth7t7]

Is verse 10 a resurrection/rapture event - but not pre-trib ?

100% False

It's stating nothing more than if the Christian believer is living or dead their with the Lord

It's really amazing how far your imagination can wander, your claim isn't even hinted at, A Really Big Head Shake To That One

1 Thessalonians 5:10KJV
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[WPM]

Is verse 10 a resurrection/rapture event - but not pre-trib ?

Hello! This was given to the largely Gentile church at Thessaloniki. This was given to Christians. So, how is this your Pretib rapture?

Your doctrine is filled with countless contradictions.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. How can the day of the Lord refer to "an era of time" when Paul clearly said that upon its unexpected arrival as a thief in the night it will bring "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3)? How does a sudden event turn into an era of time (1,000+ years)? That's a case of someone blatantly twisting scripture.

They cannot answer this because it demolishes their reasoning. That is why they are incapable of carrying out an extended conversation on any issue. They hit and run now because they cannot support their view with hard biblical corroboration.

 

[Douggg]

100% False

It's stating nothing more than if the Christian believer is living or dead their with the Lord

It's really amazing how far your imagination can wander, your claim isn't even hinted at, A Really Big Head Shake To That One

1 Thessalonians 5:10KJV
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

That's not what it says in context of the three verses. The verse is talking about the resurrection of the dead of in Christ and the translation of the living in Christ, to go to heaven to live with Christ, while God's wrath will be taking place on earth.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul, in just a few verses earlier, wrote about the resurrection/rapture in 1Thessalonians4:14-18, of them who sleep and them who are alive (wake), and ending with the same words of encouragement - to comfort one another with these words.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Douggg]

Hello! This was given to the largely Gentile church at Thessaloniki. This was given the Christians. So, how is this not your Preytib rapture? Your doctrine is filled with countless contradictions.

My view is that the resurrection/rapture will take place before the beginning of the day of the Lord. I call my view "the anytime rapture view" - i.e. any time between right now and the day the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's not what it says in context of the three verses. The verse is talking about the resurrection of the dead of in Christ and the translation of the living in Christ, to go to heaven to live with Christ, while God's wrath will be taking place on earth.

Your claim is 100% "False"

It's stating nothing more than if the Christian believer is living or dead their with the Lord

I Disagree with your adding to God's words, the horse is dead last response on this

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11KJV
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[WPM]

My view is that the resurrection/rapture will take place before the beginning of the day of the Lord. I call my view "the anytime rapture view" - i.e. any time between right now and the day the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.


-

I know what you believe. But we have showed you multiple times how this theology is extra biblical and does not add up. You do not have one single wrapped your passage that shows a tribulation period after. If you had you would have showed it by now.

 

[Douggg]

I know what you believe. But we have showed you multiple times how this theology is extra biblical and does not add up. You do not have one single wrapped your passage that shows a tribulation period after. If you had you would have showed it by now.

The time difference between the resurrection/rapture event and the great tribulation beginning is not known.

resurrection/rapture event...........................................unknown time passes ...............................until the great tribulation begins.

 

[WPM]

That's not what it says in context of the three verses. The verse is talking about the resurrection of the dead of in Christ and the translation of the living in Christ, to go to heaven to live with Christ, while God's wrath will be taking place on earth.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul, in just a few verses earlier, wrote about the resurrection/rapture in 1Thessalonians4:14-18, of them who sleep and them who are alive (wake), and ending with the same words of encouragement - to comfort one another with these words.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

We can see from the wording of the text that this passage is describing one unitary event. Paul correlates the rescue of God's people after coming of the Lord, with the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the wicked at the same time. He was talking to Christians here in Thessaloniki and expressing the same comfort for the same overall climatic event. He is assuring God’s people that this day when Christ comes as a thief in the night will not catch them unexpected. They will not be sleeping. They will be awake. He is exhorting them to “watch and be sober.”

 

[WPM]

The time difference between the resurrection/rapture event and the great tribulation beginning is not known.

resurrection/rapture event...........................................unknown time passes ...............................until the great tribulation begins.

LOL. That is because it is not in the Word of God. It is only in your mind and in your charts. It is a figment of your imagination.

 

[Marilyn C]

This is utter nonsense. The day of the Lord and the day of Christ are used synonymously and interchangeably in scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Lord, so the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are the same thing and it can also be called "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The Day of the LORD is the Lord God Almighty in judgement. (Rev. 16: 7)

Jesus took our judgment and thus we are not in that judgment time.

 

[Davy]

The Day of the LORD is the Lord God Almighty in judgement. (Rev. 16: 7)

Jesus took our judgment and thus we are not in that judgment time.

7th Trumpet timing, actually. But that judgment on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes is only about the separation of His sheep from the goats (unsaved). The real Judgement, the Great White Throne Judgment, only happens after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. And that will be the Judgment to determine which flesh-born people are cast into the "lake of fire" along with the devil, and the abode of hell, and death, per the end of Rev.20.

 

[Davy]

The Day of Christ -

`He who begun a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ.....that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the Day of Christ.` (Phil. 1: 6 - 10)

This period is not only the first in chronological order of fulfillment but is the greatest in importance in the Divine predestinations. each reference relates entirely and exclusively to the Body of Christ, in the specific time-slot identified with the coming of the Lord jesus Christ. it signifies completion of the highest of God`s purposes, the supreme expression of Divine revelation. All other expressions of His ordinations are dependent on its completion. (Heb. 11: 40)

The Day of the LORD.

One of the major themes in the Word of God concerns the prophetic truth relative to a time of international crisis in the last days. A time completely without precedent; a time utterly dissimilar, by its concentration and extent to anything previously known in the history of the world. This period is consistently referred to as `The Day of the LORD,` and refers to that period coinciding with God dealing again with Israel and the nations subsequent to the Rapture of the Body of Chrost 91 Thess. 5: 2 - 9); and terminating with the destruction of the heaven and the earth. (2 Peter 3: 10)

Invariably scripture connects this time with tribulation and suffering. Zephaniah (1: 14 - 18) provides one of the most concise descriptive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jeremiah (30: 7) Daniel (12: 1) and Joel (2: 2). Jesus Himself warned "For there shall be a great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be." (Matt. 24: 21) John succinctly epitomises it as `the Day of the wrath of God." (Rev. 6: 15 - 17) Greek `orge` expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Isa. 26: 21)

The time-slot has been set by Jesus as just prior to His return; and He specifically links it to the `Abomination of desolation` spoken of by Daniel the Prophet (Matt. 24: 15 - 30). Daniel specifies this event to be fulfilled during the seven years of gentile Domination (Dan. 9: 24 - 27) It is thus evident and conclusive that the great Tribulation and the seven years run concurrent.

Sorry, but the above is not really correct.

The "day of Christ" is the same... events and timing of the Old Testament "day of the Lord". In 2 Thess.2:2 the KJV has it as "day of Christ", but in some Greek manuscripts it is not the Greek word for Christ there, but instead Greek kurios, which means 'Lord', and thus "the day of the Lord".

Same thing in 1 Corinthians 1:8 which has multiple Greek words, kurios (Lord) and christos (Christ). Same in 1 Cor.5:5 and 2 Cor.1:14.

In 1 Thess.5:2, Apostle Paul shows the "sudden destruction" from God will come on that "day of the Lord", which Paul was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets about the last day of this world. Same idea by Apostle Peter about God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth on that "day of the Lord", per 2 Peter 3:10.

The Pre-trib Rapture School attempts to 'create' a false time for that "day of the Lord" as if it happens 'during'... the "great tribulation" time when it does not. Instead, it will happen on the day of Christ's future return immediately AFTER... the "great tribulation".

 

[WPM]

Sorry, but the above is not really correct.

The "day of Christ" is the same... events and timing of the Old Testament "day of the Lord". In 2 Thess.2:2 the KJV has it as "day of Christ", but in some Greek manuscripts it is not the Greek word for Christ there, but instead Greek kurios, which means 'Lord', and thus "the day of the Lord".

Same thing in 1 Corinthians 1:8 which has multiple Greek words, kurios (Lord) and christos (Christ). Same in 1 Cor.5:5 and 2 Cor.1:14.

In 1 Thess.5:2, Apostle Paul shows the "sudden destruction" from God will come on that "day of the Lord", which Paul was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets about the last day of this world. Same idea by Apostle Peter about God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth on that "day of the Lord", per 2 Peter 3:10.

The Pre-trib Rapture School attempts to 'create' a false time for that "day of the Lord" as if it happens 'during'... the "great tribulation" time when it does not. Instead, it will happen on the day of Christ's future return immediately AFTER... the "great tribulation".

You do not believe in "sudden destruction."

 

[Davy]

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

That "sudden destruction" is a pointer to God's "consuming fire" that will burn man's works off this earth, like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Now for those who need to go back to grammar school and re-learn their English, a simple reading in The Old Testament prophets, and even in Christ's Book of Revelation, the earth will STILL EXIST after that 2 Peter 3:10 "consuming fire" event by God on that last day of this world, the "day of the Lord".

And it's easy to tell those Biblically illiterate who cannot understand English about that, because at the end of Hebrews 12 we are specifically shown that God's "consuming fire" will only burn the things off this earth that can be shaken, so that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. And the Zechariah 14 Chapter, which is about Christ's future return back to this earth, and thereafter, reveals His reign over the nations ON THIS EARTH that will remain.

But one cannot convince the Biblically lazy... about this, simply because they cannot think for themselves to know that if Christ and His elect are reigning over the nations ON EARTH after His future coming, then the 2 Peter 3:10 verse DOES NOT MEAN THIS EARTH WILL BE LITERALLY TURNED INTO AN ASTEROID BELT BY GOD'S CONSUMING FIRE EVENT! (That KJV word "elements" in the Greek means a world time, an age, not the physics atomic weight of material elements.)