SDAs, USA and the End times.

[David in NJ]

It is commonly argued by non-sabbatarians that those of us who do observe the Sabbath are doing so because we have resorted to a works based paradigm in order to be saved. They then cite Galatians in support of their accusations...and accusation it is. "We have fallen from grace". In conjunction with this they say we have gone back to living under the old covenant. That we need to come back to Christ in the NT/covenant, and keep the "law of Christ". In response to this, I say poppycock. They don't read the scriptures.

Let me remind everyone reading this on a couple of points.
A. None of you are keeping the commandments so long as you ignore the 4th. That's the bottom line truth.
“10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. ”
James 2:10-11 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
There is no reason to assume/presume that the Sabbath commandment is excluded from "the whole law" which in context, is the Ten Commandments.

B. Whatever of the commandments you do keep of the other 9, you do so by the grace and power of God.

C. Israel, under the old covenant, was saved by grace through faith. Even at their peak in obedience to all the commandments of Moses law and/or Ten Commandments, if they were saved at all, it was by faith in the blood of the Lamb. Their obedience never sav toed them. Ever. Thus the old covenant was never based on law, the new on grace. It's always been grace. Always.
The following applies to the NT every much as it did to the Israel of Ezekiel's time...

“23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. ”
Ezekiel 36:23-27 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Seventh Day Adventists believe righteousness comes by faith in the promises of God. Willing obedience to the 4th commandment comes by faith and submission to the authority of God's word. Which all protestants claim, but only a few live by.

A. None of you are keeping the commandments so long as you ignore the 4th. That's the bottom line truth

Seventh Day Adventists believe righteousness comes by faith in the promises of God.

@Brakelite and @BarneyFife

i HOPE you guys believe @Brakelite's two comments above that i highlighted = FULLY BELIEVE

If your rest is on saturday then you both FAIL to believe your own statements = by faith in the Promise of God.
If you believe your righteousness is thru observance of saturday then you FAIL to obey the Commandments of God.

Do you @BarneyFife and @Brakelite realize that when you call yourself a saturday sabbatarian and your fellow brothers and Sisters in Christ as "non-sabbatarians" that you BREAK the Commandments of God and you commit the SAME error as the Jews who seek to establish their own righteousness by clinging to commandments that they can NEVER fulfill.

By claiming to be true sabbatarians because you observe saturday as your righteousness, you DEVALUE the Righteousness of GOD.
This is the SAME devaluing of the LORD Jesus Christ thru Mary worship

Waiting for your response to this.

IMPORTANT: No one is telling you top stop gathering/worshipping on saturday = get that false thought OUT of your heads & hearts
If someone told me that i MUST worship on sunday i would speak the Gospel to them and read Hebrews to them as well, to show them exactly Who and what is the Righteousness of God that we are to obey.

 

[Brakelite]

Read what it says.
9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

That's how we are to rest now.

Our command is love. Love doesn't steal or lie to someone etc.........

What about loving God? Do you worship any other god? Have you made a statue and called it Jehovah? Do you dishonor His name by embracing a character contradictory to His name? Do you honour a day other than the one He blessed and made holy?

 

[Jay Ross]

What about loving God? Do you worship any other god? Have you made a statue and called it Jehovah? Do you dishonor His name by embracing a character contradictory to His name? Do you honour a day other than the one He blessed and made holy?

Our Idol is so often the man-made constructs on which our denomination is built upon; in other words what of our theology is more important than how we interact with God.

Such things as what entities are the real beasts that exercise their dominion over our lives through the respective beasts' lies.

Such things as the day in which we worship God rather than having a lifestyle that reflects God's presence in how we live our life solely centred around worshipping God by giving Him all of our honour in every moment that we draw breath.

Fo me personally, it is more important that God's fertile field is from where I draw all of my spiritual nourishment from.

Shalom

 

[Brakelite]

Good Morning @Brakelite,

Thank you for the FYI

Here are the ABC's of sabbath rest

You gave me a good chuckle with "non-sabbatarians"

My question would be, is this me or you?
Because MESSIAH is my Sabbath REST.

What we have here is this:
a.) saturday sabbatarians = comes with a death penalty for working on saturday = Exodus 31:15
B.) Sabbatarians who follow the LORD of the sabbath = God's REST = 7th Day FULFILLED = Gospel/Acts/Hebrews
c.) sunday sabbatarians

a.) saturday sabbatarians claim to be the true church because of saturday = death penalty for working = Exodus 31:15
B.) MESSIAH is our REST Sabbatarians = Living Stones Church Built by MESSIAH
c.) sunday sabbatarians

B.) At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
a.) saturday sabbatarians say: Matt 12:2
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”

@Brakelite, how does SDA approach this = Isaiah 58:13
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on My holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

Always know that i enjoy conversing with you and love you in the Eternal Sabbath REST of God = YHWH

In your desperation to defend your unbiblical "let's presume upon God's goodness and cast aside the one commandment that we hate because it costs us too much", you have graduated from casting doubt on the Sabbath day itself (forgetting that God had never suggested anywhere in His word that He had removed the blessing and holiness from HIS 7th day) you now resort to cast calumny and insult on how we observe the day.

Yes, I know you claim the Messiah as your Sabbath rest. But we rest in Christ also. We know we are weak, blind, poor, naked wretched moral viruses without Christ. No-one can do anything without Him. He's our only hope. All the obedience and Sabbath keeping in the world doesn't negate or reduce our need of His strength, grace, and mercy in living a life well lived. But nor does our trust in Him, our faith, cancel, annul, destroy, cast aside or trample underfoot any of God commandments, in fact the opposite. The response from God to our faith is the enabling power to obey. Not only does it give us the love for others that explains from our hearts the natural carnal inclination to be proud, short tempered, lustful, covetous and impatient, it also reveals the blessings, the joy, the peace, and takes away the fear, the potential embarrassment, the concern over being ridiculed, by observing all His commandments instead of just 9, and through the holy Spirit reveals the truth of God's word in ways never before realised.

Like this...

Waiting for your response to this.

By claiming to be true sabbatarians because you observe saturday as your righteousness, you DEVALUE the Righteousness of GOD.

More calumny.

“My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. ”
Psalms 119:172 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Note. Observing the Sabbath it's not our righteousness. Righteousness comes as a gift. It's God's righteousness, always.

“20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! ”
Isaiah 5:20-21 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Making a day of the earthbound calendar more important then the Creator Himself

Actually that isn't us, but you. You are the one who has made the commandment of none effect by your tradition of casting it aside, above the direct commandment of your Creator, He to Whom the Sabbath was first dedicated.

 

[Brakelite]

Such things as the day in which we worship God rather than having a lifestyle that reflects God's presence in how we live our life solely centred around worshipping God by giving Him all of our honour in every moment that we draw breath.

Why not both?

 

[David in NJ]

In your desperation to defend your unbiblical "let's presume upon God's goodness and cast aside the one commandment that we hate because it costs us too much", you have graduated from casting doubt on the Sabbath day itself (forgetting that God had never suggested anywhere in His word that He had removed the blessing and holiness from HIS 7th day) you now resort to cast calumny and insult on how we observe the day.

Yes, I know you claim the Messiah as your Sabbath rest. But we rest in Christ also. We know we are weak, blind, poor, naked wretched moral viruses without Christ. No-one can do anything without Him. He's our only hope. All the obedience and Sabbath keeping in the world doesn't negate or reduce our need of His strength, grace, and mercy in living a life well lived. But nor does our trust in Him, our faith, cancel, annul, destroy, cast aside or trample underfoot any of God commandments, in fact the opposite. The response from God to our faith is the enabling power to obey. Not only does it give us the love for others that explains from our hearts the natural carnal inclination to be proud, short tempered, lustful, covetous and impatient, it also reveals the blessings, the joy, the peace, and takes away the fear, the potential embarrassment, the concern over being ridiculed, by observing all His commandments instead of just 9, and through the holy Spirit reveals the truth of God's word in ways never before realised.

Like this...


More calumny.

“My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. ”
Psalms 119:172 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Note. Observing the Sabbath it's not our righteousness. Righteousness comes as a gift. It's God's righteousness, always.

“20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! ”
Isaiah 5:20-21 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Actually that isn't us, but you. You are the one who has made the commandment of none effect by your tradition of casting it aside, above the direct commandment of your Creator, He to Whom the Sabbath was first dedicated.

Well you dug your heels into religion and deception and your post here reveals it - loud and clear

Note. Observing the Sabbath it's not our righteousness

But it is = it is the SDA claim to righteousness

Here is your hypocrisy:
Seventh Day Adventists insist upon Saturday as the day when the sabbath must be observed. They claim that other denominations that worship on Sunday are worshipping on the wrong day. The official teaching of the SDA movement even states that those who worship on Sunday have strayed from the true faith, are actually worshipping Satan and that Sunday-worship is the mark of the beast (Ellen G. White, “The Great Controversy”, 1950, p.605).

Calling sanctified Blood Washed Saints, devil worshippers because of a day of the week, is religion that breaks God's commandments.

Your other hypocrisy is claiming to be keeping God's commandments by making saturday THE commandment to keep while you reject
the commandments of CHRIST, who is LORD of the sabbath.

The FATHER has declared LORD Jesus Christ to be our Sabbath REST = PERIOD = no add-ons to His Righteousness

CHRIST never commanded saturday sabbath keeping = HE never once conceded His Church to be subject to the OLD law which points to HIM.
In Genesis chapter 2, God sanctified the seventh day, because it SPEAKS of CHRIST = the Eternal REST of God

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

the LORD Jesus Christ commanded that HE alone is our Sabbath REST = PERIOD
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Your saturday commandment keeping comes from the OT and a false prophetess named Helen White and others beside her.

Now i wonder if you really know Christ?
Have you truly been Born-Again by His Spirit?
You most certainly have not been Baptized in the Holy Spirit because if you were you would not be bound under SDA

The response from God to our faith is the enabling power to obey.

But concerning sabbath rest you are not obeying God.
You are obeying religion, devaluing God's Rest and hating those whom God commanded you to love = for a day of the week.

Thank You LORD Jesus Christ for Saving me and setting me FREE from RCC, SDA, jw and all of these man-made religions that deny your Salvation and REST = "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

 

[David in NJ]

Why not both?

Because God said so = Exodus 31:15

 

[Jay Ross]

Because God said so = Exodus 31:15

Exodus 31:12-17: - The Sabbath Law

12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your ages, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it will die the second death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall die the second death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their ages as a covenant for a prolonged period, {which ends at the vanishing point in time}. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for all time; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.'"​

Contextually corrected NKJV​

This is how the how the traditional NKJV has translated the HebrewText: -
​

Exodus 31:12-17: - The Sabbath Law​

12And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

Notice that the traditional text suggests that people who profane the Sabbath Day shall surely be put to death whereas in the corrected translation people still had time to repent before they drew their last breath and then live.

It would seem that God shows more grace than what some on this forum would accept should be given.

 

[quietthinker]

Well you dug your heels into religion and deception and your post here reveals it - loud and clear



But it is = it is the SDA claim to righteousness

Here is your hypocrisy:
Seventh Day Adventists insist upon Saturday as the day when the sabbath must be observed. They claim that other denominations that worship on Sunday are worshipping on the wrong day. The official teaching of the SDA movement even states that those who worship on Sunday have strayed from the true faith, are actually worshipping Satan and that Sunday-worship is the mark of the beast (Ellen G. White, “The Great Controversy”, 1950, p.605).

Calling sanctified Blood Washed Saints, devil worshippers because of a day of the week, is religion that breaks God's commandments.

Your other hypocrisy is claiming to be keeping God's commandments by making saturday THE commandment to keep while you reject
the commandments of CHRIST, who is LORD of the sabbath.

The FATHER has declared LORD Jesus Christ to be our Sabbath REST = PERIOD = no add-ons to His Righteousness

CHRIST never commanded saturday sabbath keeping = HE never once conceded His Church to be subject to the OLD law which points to HIM.
In Genesis chapter 2, God sanctified the seventh day, because it SPEAKS of CHRIST = the Eternal REST of God

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

the LORD Jesus Christ commanded that HE alone is our Sabbath REST = PERIOD
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Your saturday commandment keeping comes from the OT and a false prophetess named Helen White and others beside her.

Now i wonder if you really know Christ?
Have you truly been Born-Again by His Spirit?
You most certainly have not been Baptized in the Holy Spirit because if you were you would not be bound under SDA


But concerning sabbath rest you are not obeying God.
You are obeying religion, devaluing God's Rest and hating those whom God commanded you to love = for a day of the week.

Thank You LORD Jesus Christ for Saving me and setting me FREE from RCC, SDA, jw and all of these man-made religions that deny your Salvation and REST = "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Your ears aren't hearing what Bakelite is saying....except when he nails your attitude.
How can I tell? because your defence is of the same nature as that of the Pharisees when Jesus gave them answers they didn't want to hear.

 

[Brakelite]

Well you dug your heels into religion and deception and your post here reveals it - loud and clear



But it is = it is the SDA claim to righteousness

Here is your hypocrisy:
Seventh Day Adventists insist upon Saturday as the day when the sabbath must be observed. They claim that other denominations that worship on Sunday are worshipping on the wrong day. The official teaching of the SDA movement even states that those who worship on Sunday have strayed from the true faith, are actually worshipping Satan and that Sunday-worship is the mark of the beast (Ellen G. White, “The Great Controversy”, 1950, p.605).

Calling sanctified Blood Washed Saints, devil worshippers because of a day of the week, is religion that breaks God's commandments.

Your other hypocrisy is claiming to be keeping God's commandments by making saturday THE commandment to keep while you reject
the commandments of CHRIST, who is LORD of the sabbath.

The FATHER has declared LORD Jesus Christ to be our Sabbath REST = PERIOD = no add-ons to His Righteousness

CHRIST never commanded saturday sabbath keeping = HE never once conceded His Church to be subject to the OLD law which points to HIM.
In Genesis chapter 2, God sanctified the seventh day, because it SPEAKS of CHRIST = the Eternal REST of God

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

the LORD Jesus Christ commanded that HE alone is our Sabbath REST = PERIOD
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Your saturday commandment keeping comes from the OT and a false prophetess named Helen White and others beside her.

Now i wonder if you really know Christ?
Have you truly been Born-Again by His Spirit?
You most certainly have not been Baptized in the Holy Spirit because if you were you would not be bound under SDA


But concerning sabbath rest you are not obeying God.
You are obeying religion, devaluing God's Rest and hating those whom God commanded you to love = for a day of the week.

Thank You LORD Jesus Christ for Saving me and setting me FREE from RCC, SDA, jw and all of these man-made religions that deny your Salvation and REST = "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Why do you not accuse me of attempting to earn my salvation by resisting the temptation to get angry with crazy motorists who cut me off on the highway? And therefore not murder them? We do you not accuse me of attempting to earn my salvation by resisting the temptation to lust after the attractive women joggers that pass by my gate? And thus not commit adultery?
Why accuse me of trying to earn my salvation through obedience to only the 4th commandment, and not any of the other 9?

Aren't you resting in the grace of Christ when you are tempted to cheat on your taxes, lie about your undersized fish to the officer, wonder how your can afford the unaffordable Ferrari for sale next door? Isn't that all grace that you don't even think about those things any more, but just do them because of the work of Christ in you? Why is it, if you choose to rest on the Sabbath day, everything changes and you are no longer resting in Christ and trusting in His grace? Is it because you think by doing so you are gaining brownie points toward salvation and you have lost faith in the blood of the Lamb? What idiot would be so stupid to think that you're mind would be so twisted to change your whole paradigm of thinking simply because you chose to honour the 4th commandment? Why wouldn't that choice be a result of grace? Why wouldn't your decision to honour God in the 4th commandment be as much a result of grace as your choice to honour Him every other day by your witness, your deportment of character, your honesty, your integrity, your love and regard for your wife and your hard work in your chosen career, and the grace that allows you all these?

 

[Brakelite]

Seventh Day Adventists insist upon Saturday as the day when the sabbath must be observed

Yes, and it has been explained ad nauseum why. But you aren't listening. When the subject comes up, you and others here become antagonistic and begin challenging our reasoning, make slanderous accusations regarding our motives, all based on nothing more than your own imagination, because not one Adventist ever has boasted that by keeping the Sabbath he is guaranteed a place in heaven. Your presumptuous attitude is judgmental, illogical and unreasonable.

 

[Josho]

So there has been some discussion here about The Great harlot in Revelation 17, I thought I would raise this up, I did a bit of quick research, the Babylon Province seems to be growing in population, have a Google of Hillah, the capital of the Babylon Province in Iraq, the population was 455,000 in 2018, in 2025 it's estimated to be 673,000 people.

And then you also find out Saddam Hussein did some restoration work in the Babylon Province.

Could the Great harlot be Babylon itself?

 

[David in NJ]

Your ears aren't hearing what Bakelite is saying....except when he nails your attitude.
How can I tell? because your defence is of the same nature as that of the Pharisees when Jesus gave them answers they didn't want to hear.

You and @Brakelite , in FACT, gave the SAME defense of the OT as the Pharisees = "Jesus, you are breaking saturday sabbath"

SDA pharisees = For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath

 

[David in NJ]

Why do you not accuse me of attempting to earn my salvation by resisting the temptation to get angry with crazy motorists who cut me off on the highway? And therefore not murder them? We do you not accuse me of attempting to earn my salvation by resisting the temptation to lust after the attractive women joggers that pass by my gate? And thus not commit adultery?
Why accuse me of trying to earn my salvation through obedience to only the 4th commandment, and not any of the other 9?

Aren't you resting in the grace of Christ when you are tempted to cheat on your taxes, lie about your undersized fish to the officer, wonder how your can afford the unaffordable Ferrari for sale next door? Isn't that all grace that you don't even think about those things any more, but just do them because of the work of Christ in you? Why is it, if you choose to rest on the Sabbath day, everything changes and you are no longer resting in Christ and trusting in His grace? Is it because you think by doing so you are gaining brownie points toward salvation and you have lost faith in the blood of the Lamb? What idiot would be so stupid to think that you're mind would be so twisted to change your whole paradigm of thinking simply because you chose to honour the 4th commandment? Why wouldn't that choice be a result of grace? Why wouldn't your decision to honour God in the 4th commandment be as much a result of grace as your choice to honour Him every other day by your witness, your deportment of character, your honesty, your integrity, your love and regard for your wife and your hard work in your chosen career, and the grace that allows you all these?

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath"

Why is it, if you choose to rest on the Sabbath day, everything changes and you are no longer resting in Christ and trusting in His grace?

AGAIN for the 100th time - no one is telling you to stop gathering/worshipping on saturday.
Your SDA religion dictates that you must worship on saturday or you are not abiding in God = saturday is god

Tell your SDA leaders that you plan on attending other churches on sunday = see what happens to you!!!
Or would that be sacrilege to you???

Why 4th commandment, and not any of the other 9?

Because only the 4th commandment is given as a day of rest that if you violate it = death penalty = Ex 31:15

Have you noticed how saturday rest is never commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles???

Have you really read ALL of the Gospel and Acts and NT writings on this???

Hoping you begin reading/praying the Gospel of John and then go directly to Acts and Hebrews

May the Peace of God fill your heart Today in the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, and it has been explained ad nauseum why. But you aren't listening. When the subject comes up, you and others here become antagonistic and begin challenging our reasoning, make slanderous accusations regarding our motives, all based on nothing more than your own imagination, because not one Adventist ever has boasted that by keeping the Sabbath he is guaranteed a place in heaven. Your presumptuous attitude is judgmental, illogical and unreasonable.

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath"

So there has been some discussion here about The Great harlot in Revelation 17, I thought I would raise this up, I did a bit of quick research, the Babylon Province seems to be growing in population, have a Google of Hillah, the capital of the Babylon Province in Iraq, the population was 455,000 in 2018, in 2025 it's estimated to be 673,000 people.

And then you also find out Saddam Hussein did some restoration work in the Babylon Province.

Could the Great harlot be Babylon itself?

Nope

So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

 

[David in NJ]

Exodus 31:12-17: - The Sabbath Law

12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your ages, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it will die the second death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall die the second death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their ages as a covenant for a prolonged period, {which ends at the vanishing point in time}. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for all time; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.'"​

Contextually corrected NKJV​

This is how the how the traditional NKJV has translated the HebrewText: -
​

Exodus 31:12-17: - The Sabbath Law​

12And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

Notice that the traditional text suggests that people who profane the Sabbath Day shall surely be put to death whereas in the corrected translation people still had time to repent before they drew their last breath and then live.

It would seem that God shows more grace than what some on this forum would accept should be given.

"second death" in Exodus 31:12-17 = Once again this substantiates what JESUS Says = HE is the Sabbath REST of God
We only escape the Second Death thru REST in CHRIST

Grace, Truth and REST is in the LORD Jesus Christ

Did the Lord Jesus Christ ever command that saturday is the rest of God = or did the Savior show us that HE broke the saturday sabbath.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Have you ever compared Exodus 31:12-17 to John 3:16-21

 

[quietthinker]

You and @Brakelite , in FACT, gave the SAME defense of the OT as the Pharisees = "Jesus, you are breaking saturday sabbath"

SDA pharisees = For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath

The desperation in your reply above is palpable David.

 

[Brakelite]

So there has been some discussion here about The Great harlot in Revelation 17, I thought I would raise this up, I did a bit of quick research, the Babylon Province seems to be growing in population, have a Google of Hillah, the capital of the Babylon Province in Iraq, the population was 455,000 in 2018, in 2025 it's estimated to be 673,000 people.

And then you also find out Saddam Hussein did some restoration work in the Babylon Province.

Could the Great harlot be Babylon itself?

There are two women pictured in Revelation as being representative of opposing forces. If you are going to take Babylon the Great as literal, then you will have to take the woman of Revelation 12 as literal also. Thing is this. Both women have an abundance of characteristics and specific details connected to them, which are clearly metaphorical. If the details are metaphorical, why not the women themselves? And if the women are
metaphorical, where do we go to in order to find a consistent biblical solution as to what they are a metaphor for?

Throughout scripture, Babylon and Jerusalem were literal opposing forces. One was utterly destroyed, prophetically spoken of as being for ever uninhabitable. The other was spoken of as being spiritually destitute, forsaken of God, their house left unto them desolate.

In Revelation prophecy gives a distinct impression from many specific and general references, that the issues of the last days are no longer literal local issues, like between a literal Babylon and Jerusalem. But contrariwise, they are spiritual global institutions at war with each other because of differing ideologies. Interestingly, both claim they serve the God, both have their own versions of the gospel, and both have prophetic messages from 3 entities each one purporting to emanate from the God they worship. The Babylon the Great party, are by far in the majority, while the Jerusalem party is described as a remnant of the seed of the woman, whom Satan persecutes with great anger.

 

[Lizbeth]

I know. heartbreaking. I love brakelight and he knows that. but his heels are fully dug in.

Most times there is doublespeak at least with JWs there is. They have the ability to believe 2 opposing views simultaneously. Sad part is they can't make the distinction. They will just lash out say you are a liar. It's hard to know what to do. When they look to their leaders words above scripture it is a real problem and that is precisely what they do.

aka, cognitive dissonance....occurs when under bondage to a cult-like spirit. Reasoning can't deliver from bondages, so it takes prayer (spiritual weapons) for the Lord to work in their life and heart.

 

[David in NJ]

aka, cognitive dissonance....occurs when under bondage to a cult-like spirit. Reasoning can't deliver from bondages, so it takes prayer (spiritual weapons) for the Lord to work in their life and heart.

However, we are encouraged by God to use His Reasoning in how and why we share the Truth = Acts 19:8

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.

And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God.
But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.