Amen, the sabbath rest law was a shadow of the substance to come in Christ. And Paul wrote we're not to judge one another on that point but to let each one be convinced in their own heart.....whether to keep or not keep a special day we do so to the Lord. It is not sin to keep it and neither is it sin to not keep it....it's up to our own conscience. But he also said to let no one judge us about it.....judge there is in the sense of no one should be "governing" on that point by making it a hard and fast rule (law). Churches or groups that are doing that are going against Paul's clear teaching.
SDAs, USA and the End times.
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Amen, yes. I don't mean we should never try to reason with folks, just that if any are in bondage it is not the thing that will set them free. From what I've seen, reasoning with people trapped in cults just doesn't penetrate, unless they are already starting to question things and are receptive. It's like a kind of blindness and deafness.....they can't see/hear what is very plain.....cognitive dissonance. I recently shared a a video of someone clearly saying something, and people denied that he said it....right in front of their noses, it was bizarre. Spiritual deception and bondage/captivity is a real thing, it can be so strong, and we've seen some of the things it can lead to, mass suicides even involving their own children. That is the nature of spiritual bondage...it can lead to strong DELUSION. It's real.
There's nothing wrong with resting and observing the Sabbath on a Saturday, so long as one is not in bondage to it, your salvation does not depend on it.
Just out of interest what do most SDAs do in the Western world where there are 2 days in the weekend? Do you take both days off Saturday and Sunday? Or do you work on the Sunday?
Just out of interest what do most SDAs do in the Western world where there are 2 days in the weekend? Do you take both days off Saturday and Sunday? Or do you work on the Sunday?
PS95
Well-Known Member
I understand why you think that way- I really do. I don't agree with your conclusion based on a couple of things-
1) Keeping a certain day is addressed by Paul. You can if you want to, but do not make it mandatory of other believers who don't see it that way. Otherwise, you are demanding that we keep the law in order to be saved. That clearly contradicts everything else Paul wrote. We are saved by grace not works of the law.
We simply can not deserve salvation by works of the law- salvation is a gift. I'm sure you agree, brakelight. You will say well it is ok to murder or lie? Of course it's not what I am saying. The other commands are reiterated in the NT and Jesus expanded them to murder = hating another, and adultery is just looking with lust. Jesus expanded the commands agree?
No Jew ever though adultery was just a thought or that hate was murder. It condemned all men. Who hasn't felt hatred for someone? Jesus convicted all of us of law breaking. We can't do it on our own. We now must be born anew by the Spirit to overcome our wicked thoughts, agree? It is about our hearts!
2) The Sabbath was also expanded-- Hebrews 4 makes it clear that the rest we are to enter is not a DAY of the week now. It is daily--It is when we rest from trying to attain our righteousness by the law. REST FROM OUR WORKS.
As we daily rest from our works we rest in Christ's accomplishment on the cross- He nailed the decree of commands to the cross. He fulfilled it all. We now have a new and better covenant. The old is obsolete due to the NEW.
Our hearts are circumcised- we worship in spirit and truth. We worship God in the Holy Spirit by the Spirit and the truth is Jesus Himself. When we refuse to enter that rest that God has provided in His Son- we are not trusting fully in His grace. We are free- free to worship every day of the week including Saturday and we are resting from our works every day including Saturday. Every day is "every day" when we rest from OUR WORKS OF THE LAW.
Loving God is believing Him which results in obedience. That obedience includes Heb 4 in my mind. I am fully convinced.
If it does not to you, then sure, go and worship and rest on Saturday. But I pray that you are not only resting from your works on Saturdays- since that is what it means- to REST- (from works of the law)-- and I pray that you don't view others who rest from works everyday- and attend church on Sundays & Wednesday eve or whatever- as disobedient law breakers who do not love God. If you do then you are requiring works of the law for salvation- which is falling from grace.
But if you attend Saturday worship to simply honor the Sabbath when God rested @ creation and not a salvation requirement- that is perfectly fine! You see, it is about your heart that matters. Are you completely resting in God's provision of Christ? Or is there one law other than love that you must do to keep your salvation? The Sabbath was not made for man as a way to show love for God.-Plenty who show up are there as a requirement to earn salvation. The Sabbath was made for man. Jesus is even Lord of the Sabbath.
Making it a requirement for salvation as Hobie does on here is just plain wrong. He is not resting from his works. Do you see the difference? I would happily join you on Saturday worships with SDA's if not for the legalisms (which is akin to Judaizing who demanded circumcism.) and well there is the 1844 thing as well.. Charles Russell also fell for that date and then made it 1874 then 1914. No no no. it's wrong.Why is it that the people that hold to the invisible dates- became legalistic? It's not a coincidence. It's what happens when false teaching creep in. Hold fast to the truth of the gospel and love and liberty- in Christ.
No, I am not saying you are a JW, Brakelight- as I know how you believe in and love Jesus!!!-
but there are some similarities in the 2 religions.
Russell's "Bible students" were a shoot off from Millerites . The "Bible students" of Russell still exist today (Berean and others on this forum) JWs went more berserk from the gospel after Russell died & Rutherford took over and Bible Students rejected Rutherford. JWs embraced his lunacy.
Just read this over and over until you get it. Once you do- add the other things Paul wrote about keeping a certain day, and the law I know you must know those. All in all- as i said if you still want to keep Saturday- that is fine!! Just keep it for the right reasons in your heart as a free man, not earning any righteousness. Jesus is our righteousness.
The Believer’s Rest
1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Take care my friend. I wont push this further. I want you to stay strong in your faith- but not look at others as being disobedient to God because they see this differently. That's all.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I am saddened by Hobie (SDA) posts on here where he condemns us who see it differently.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I just deleted a long response I had for @David in NJ , and removed 3 selected quotes from @PS95 and deleted some comments. Not because I felt I was wrong, or unsure, not because I had changed my stance. No. I deleted them all because I realised something. The more you guys respond, and I include @Lizbeth in this, the more you reveal your abject ignorance, some willful ignorance, of what it is seventh Day Adventists actually believe and teach. None of you have done any serious homework. Yes, you make honest sincere enquiries in this thread... Correction... You tell us what we believe in this thread, and ignore us when we correct you about our beliefs. You obviously feel more comfortable in your own skin when we appear, through your own misconceptions and deliberate obfuscating, to be heretics of the first order, cultists, legalists, and followers of false prophets and believers of wild productions regarding Bible prophecy none of which could be truly fulfilled, or possibly be true in the future. That's what you believe about us. You don't listen to our personal testimonies that directly contradict your judgemental presumptions, it therefore so be it. Have it your way.
Josh, I am happy to continue communicating with you, you ask the only sensible questions on here, and genuinely seem to want real answers. Regardless whether you accept our answers or not, at least you read them and are willing to have an actual discussion rather than shut things down by shooting from the hip hoping some shrapnel makes a hit.
All of you. Go and do some research for yourself. Ellen White is one of the most prolific female authors of all time. Seventh Day Adventists aren't hiding. You want to really understand us? If you think I'm lying about my beliefs, then read the prophets writing. Compare her with scripture.
Josh, I am happy to continue communicating with you, you ask the only sensible questions on here, and genuinely seem to want real answers. Regardless whether you accept our answers or not, at least you read them and are willing to have an actual discussion rather than shut things down by shooting from the hip hoping some shrapnel makes a hit.
All of you. Go and do some research for yourself. Ellen White is one of the most prolific female authors of all time. Seventh Day Adventists aren't hiding. You want to really understand us? If you think I'm lying about my beliefs, then read the prophets writing. Compare her with scripture.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You're very bl..dy bold in your statements above Brakelite. I congratulate you for your forthrightness and your courage.
I hope one day we can meet in person and have further discussions
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That would be great. But the distance between Melbourne and the Daintree isn't inconsiderable.
Not so sure about my last post. Courage? Or reckless? Either way, there's dust in the wind. Over talking to people who haven't ears to hear.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
OK, i am reading and listening to your words.
"shooting from the hip hoping some shrapnel makes a hit."
"shooting from the hip hoping some shrapnel makes a hit."
"shooting from the hip hoping some shrapnel makes a hit."
"shooting from the hip hoping some shrapnel makes a hit."
This has been accomplished and the LORD rejects judging others based upon what day of the week Blood Washed Saints gather on.
Here is the Scripture/Truth SDA fights against:
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you Rest."
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
@BarneyFife @Brakelite @quietthinker @Triumph1300 = Can you please explain Hebrews 4:3
Hebrews 4:3 - For we who have believed do enter that Rest,
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
My old friend, if you were absolutely sure, you'd be in trouble, either way. It's not as important to be correct or sure as it is to be authentic. Not that truth isn't very much important, obviously.
You've touched very meaningfully on something with which I've been deeply concerned for several years now.
When I first started participating here we had disagreements with others, sure. That's natural, and to be expected.
But over the past 2 or 3 years, I've noticed a decided shift toward the same kind of tribalism that you see in the world—especially in the politically-charged world in which we now seem almost to be trapped.
Folks huddle in groups and talk like the Pharisee in the parable. It all sounds like: "God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are..."
And they jam each other into groups of their own choosing or devising. I have been guilty of this myself to both greater and lesser degrees. But it really sickens me—especially when I do it.
And none of it sounds like the prayers of Christ or Stephen as they breathed their last: "Father, forgive them/Lay not this sin to their charge..."
But more like the petition of the tragically misguided disciples: " Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"
Granted, this is the extreme expression of religious bigotry, and I'll be accused of being sensational, to be sure, but I say let the Word of God do its work, regardless of any error on my part. If I am wrong, let my remarks be ignored, is my hope.
hello,
Sounds a bit like, "I don't know if I am right or wrong, but I'll say it anyway and accept the consequences if I'm wrong.
If you do not know whether what you believe is right or wrong, then why say anything at all or do you like the sound of your voice bluffing your way into prominence on this forum.
Sounds a bit like, "I don't know if I am right or wrong, but I'll say it anyway and accept the consequences if I'm wrong.
If you do not know whether what you believe is right or wrong, then why say anything at all or do you like the sound of your voice bluffing your way into prominence on this forum.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Good post.My old friend, if you were absolutely sure, you'd be in trouble, either way. It's not as important to be correct or sure as it is to be authentic. Not that truth isn't very much important, obviously.
You've touched very meaningfully on something with which I've been deeply concerned for several years now.
When I first started participating here we had disagreements with others, sure. That's natural, and to be expected.
But over the past 2 or 3 years, I've noticed a decided shift toward the same kind of tribalism that you see in the world—especially in the politically-charged world in which we now seem almost to be trapped.
Folks huddle in groups and talk like the Pharisee in the parable. It all sounds like: "God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are..."
And they jam each other into groups of their own choosing or devising. I have been guilty of this myself to both greater and lesser degrees. But it really sickens me—especially when I do it.
And none of it sounds like the prayers of Christ or Stephen as they breathed their last: "Father, forgive them/Lay not this sin to their charge..."
But more like the petition of the tragically misguided disciples: " Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"
Granted, this is the extreme expression of religious bigotry, and I'll be accused of being sensational, to be sure, but I say let the Word of God do its work, regardless of any error on my part. If I am wrong, let my remarks be ignored, is my hope.
I agree!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
My old friend, if you were absolutely sure, you'd be in trouble, either way. It's not as important to be correct or sure as it is to be authentic. Not that truth isn't very much important, obviously.
You've touched very meaningfully on something with which I've been deeply concerned for several years now.
When I first started participating here we had disagreements with others, sure. That's natural, and to be expected.
But over the past 2 or 3 years, I've noticed a decided shift toward the same kind of tribalism that you see in the world—especially in the politically-charged world in which we now seem almost to be trapped.
Folks huddle in groups and talk like the Pharisee in the parable. It all sounds like: "God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are..."
And they jam each other into groups of their own choosing or devising. I have been guilty of this myself to both greater and lesser degrees. But it really sickens me—especially when I do it.
And none of it sounds like the prayers of Christ or Stephen as they breathed their last: "Father, forgive them/Lay not this sin to their charge..."
But more like the petition of the tragically misguided disciples: " Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"
Granted, this is the extreme expression of religious bigotry, and I'll be accused of being sensational, to be sure, but I say let the Word of God do its work, regardless of any error on my part. If I am wrong, let my remarks be ignored, is my hope.
@BarneyFife @Brakelite @quietthinker @Triumph1300
Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond” (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death.
On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator's rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts.
The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted.
When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not.
While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other, choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.
Do you understand what is being said here???
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Very good post, this should be pinned.My old friend, if you were absolutely sure, you'd be in trouble, either way. It's not as important to be correct or sure as it is to be authentic. Not that truth isn't very much important, obviously.
You've touched very meaningfully on something with which I've been deeply concerned for several years now.
When I first started participating here we had disagreements with others, sure. That's natural, and to be expected.
But over the past 2 or 3 years, I've noticed a decided shift toward the same kind of tribalism that you see in the world—especially in the politically-charged world in which we now seem almost to be trapped.
Folks huddle in groups and talk like the Pharisee in the parable. It all sounds like: "God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are..."
And they jam each other into groups of their own choosing or devising. I have been guilty of this myself to both greater and lesser degrees. But it really sickens me—especially when I do it.
And none of it sounds like the prayers of Christ or Stephen as they breathed their last: "Father, forgive them/Lay not this sin to their charge..."
But more like the petition of the tragically misguided disciples: " Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"
Granted, this is the extreme expression of religious bigotry, and I'll be accused of being sensational, to be sure, but I say let the Word of God do its work, regardless of any error on my part. If I am wrong, let my remarks be ignored, is my hope.
You should check out the youtube video in my other post from "whaddo you meme" on tribalism. This issue does go a lot further than racism, you are right it also extends to political circles and denominational circles.
Racism, tribalism, us vs them
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PS95
Well-Known Member
The issue for me is as simple. SDA's on here are not forthcoming like Hobie is. At least he says what he believes. I can respect his honestly at least. I can't respect that some SDA's here secretly believe one thing but evade it on here.My old friend, if you were absolutely sure, you'd be in trouble, either way. It's not as important to be correct or sure as it is to be authentic. Not that truth isn't very much important, obviously.
You've touched very meaningfully on something with which I've been deeply concerned for several years now.
When I first started participating here we had disagreements with others, sure. That's natural, and to be expected.
But over the past 2 or 3 years, I've noticed a decided shift toward the same kind of tribalism that you see in the world—especially in the politically-charged world in which we now seem almost to be trapped.
Folks huddle in groups and talk like the Pharisee in the parable. It all sounds like: "God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are..."
And they jam each other into groups of their own choosing or devising. I have been guilty of this myself to both greater and lesser degrees. But it really sickens me—especially when I do it.
And none of it sounds like the prayers of Christ or Stephen as they breathed their last: "Father, forgive them/Lay not this sin to their charge..."
But more like the petition of the tragically misguided disciples: " Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"
Granted, this is the extreme expression of religious bigotry, and I'll be accused of being sensational, to be sure, but I say let the Word of God do its work, regardless of any error on my part. If I am wrong, let my remarks be ignored, is my hope.
It' simple. All I want from you guys is to admit what you are taught as SDA's. If something has changed from these statements below- let us all know please?
I have no idea why you cant comprehend what Paul said the way we all do- it's as if he was speaking directly about you guys.
(Sabbath day & foods) Col 2:15-17 - Ro 14:5-6 - Gal 4:9-10 - Ro 14:1-4 - Heb 10:1 - Heb 4 -
WHICH is why I accept you as Christians- because he said not to judge over it!! I don't care! Really. What I do care about is why you won't say that the below is what you teach about us. Why do I care about that? Because if you do, then you have made it a requirement of works for our salvation and yours. And that is that. Why is it hard to state what you believe if you do believe it?
My Q is simple- if the mark of the beast is "Sunday-keeping" to you guys, it seems to me that includes people who go to church on Sunday since that's when services are.. is that "Sunday keeping? Are you actually saying going to church on Sunday is the accepting mark of the beast? Either you believe this stuff or you don't- SDA members here- which is it?
Quotes below--
“Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically worship the first beast and receive his mark, 'the mark of the beast.' .... Those who worship the beast and his image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as were the worshippers of the golden calf.” (Advent Review Extra, pages 10 and 11, August, 1850).
“the Seventh day, Saturday, must be kept; that keeping Sunday is the mark of the beast; that all should pay tithes; that Mrs. White is inspired as were the writers of the Bible; that the Bible must be interpreted to harmonize with her writings” (“Seventh-day Adventism Renounced,” by D.M. Canright, 1914).
“Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast.” ... “The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God.” (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith; pages 170, 183).
“Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible.” (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23).
“The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast.” (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850).
“The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church.” ... “The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark.” (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281).
“The mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping. A law will enforce this upon Seventh-day Adventists. They won't obey. Then they will be outlawed, persecuted, and condemned to death! Of all the wild Advent speculations in the prophecies, this deserves to stand among the wildest.” (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced” by D.M. Canright, 1914).
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Always remember this, just as i have to remind myself: John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Because you and i love the Lord Jesus Christ, we will love each other and we will keep His commandments.
This next truth is very important, actually it has the same importance as the commandment for us to love one another.
Abiding in the Word = John 8:32
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Since no lie is of the truth, then we must always make Truth as important as loving God and loving each other.
The FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT are 100% Truth.
We are not 100% Truth and therefore we must always test everything we have heard and been taught by the Truth = the Holy Scriptures.
This means we must never add our words upon God's words and we must never subtract from God's words = Proverbs 30:5-6
This leaves us with another commandment from our Savior = Matthew 4:4
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
Here are the BIG THREE for @DavidTree @Brakelite and @BarneyFife
If we embrace these commandments, three Blessings will immediately begin to transform us into His Likeness.
1.) LOVE - We will please our Heavenly FATHER and by this the world will know we belong to CHRIST
2.) TRUTH - We will be set FREE from the spirit of error. God is faithful to deliver us from all unrighteousness.
3.) WORD - When we feed off of every word God has spoken we will grow stronger in faith, in love, in Truth.
Please make sure that you and @BarneyFife know that i love you both and even the Apostles had some disputes.
SHALOM in the REST of God = Matthew 11:28 = "Come to ME and I will give you REST"
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
To whom it may concern,
This post is for informational purposes.
Argumentative and disagreeable replies will, in all likelihood, not be addressed by me.
The Internet is weighed down with quotes and misquotes from and about Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Adventism—I can't help that.
I really can't.
I'd like to be able to police the Internet so that only reliable information is disseminated, but I'm just one guy.
And I wish I could get other Seventh-day Adventists to stop saying unwise things. I can't do that, either.
The 4th commandment is plain. Anyone who wants to twist it and try to circumvent it is free to do so.
But there's going to come a time in the near future when this issue will be brought to the forefront. And everyone will be able to knowledgeably choose between serving God or man in this matter.
AT THAT TIME, those who stifle conviction and choose for doctrine the commandment of man will as verily as I'm breathing receive the mark of the beast.
THAT TIME IS NOT YET.
NO ONE has yet received the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation 13 & 14 AT THIS TIME.
I've stated this countless times on this very website, but every time this subject comes up, folks get their feathers to flying like an angry, wet hen.
I've even quoted Mrs. White as saying it, and here is what Google Gemini 2.5 Pro has to say about her position:
---------------
Ellen G. White wrote extensively about the "mark of the beast," tying it to the enforcement of Sunday observance by law in the end times, in direct opposition to the Sabbath. Her consistent teaching was that the actual "mark" is not received until this issue becomes a direct test of loyalty to God versus loyalty to human decrees, after the issues have been made clear.
Here are some key quotes and references indicating that, in her time (and by extension, before the final crisis she described), no one had yet received the mark of the beast:
1. **Evangelism, p. 234:**
> "No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."
2. **Evangelism, p. 234 (continuing from the context above):**
> "Sunday observance is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet."
3. **Last Day Events, p. 224 (quoting Letter 11, 1890):**
> "The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God."
*(While this quote doesn't explicitly say "no one has yet received it," it clearly places the reception of the mark in the future context of a "final test" and a "law of the state" enforcing Sunday.)*
4. **The Great Controversy, p. 449:**
> "No one is condemned until he has had the light and has seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."
*(This is very similar to the Evangelism quote, emphasizing the future conditions.)*
5. **Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 258 (Manuscript 1, 1885):**
> "The third angel's message has not been given with the clearness and distinctness with which it must be given before the mark of the beast is received. The people must not be left in darkness. They must be enlightened. What is it? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment."
*(This implies that the conditions for receiving the mark—namely, the clear proclamation of the third angel's message—had not yet been fully met.)*
**Summary of her position:**
Ellen G. White taught that the reception of the mark of the beast is a future event, contingent upon:
* A law being enacted that enforces Sunday observance (the "counterfeit sabbath").
* The issues being made clear, particularly the claims of the Sabbath (the fourth commandment).
* Individuals then making a conscious choice to obey the human law in defiance of God's law.
Therefore, in her view, until these specific end-time conditions are met, no one could have received the mark of the beast. Sunday observance, in and of itself, was not the mark of the beast, but it *would become* the mark when enforced by law and chosen over God's Sabbath under those crisis conditions.
---------------
(References and quotes verifiable at m.egwwritings.org)
I can't follow around after anxious Adventistaphobes to make sure they're not getting the wrong idea about this subject.
And I'm not particularly exercised by accusations that certain Adventists aren't doing their due diligence in setting records straight, while objectors do more than theirs in keeping things muddled.
But, back to the mark of the beast being restricted to the future: Adventists understandably don't like to make this announcement too often because it tends to make people think—even if only subconsciously—that it's safe to trifle with God's longsuffering and mercy.
Sin is the transgression of the law, and every time we presumptuously break one of God's commandments it adds retroactively to the suffering of God's dear Son on the cross.
I reached a point in my life when what my parents knew about God and His will and Word was no longer sufficient for me.
Part of that transition was the knowledge that the 4th commandment had been trampled in the dust by Christendom for centuries.
I advise folks who disagree with me to make very sure they are correct.
VERY sure
This post is for informational purposes.
Argumentative and disagreeable replies will, in all likelihood, not be addressed by me.
The Internet is weighed down with quotes and misquotes from and about Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Adventism—I can't help that.
I really can't.
I'd like to be able to police the Internet so that only reliable information is disseminated, but I'm just one guy.
And I wish I could get other Seventh-day Adventists to stop saying unwise things. I can't do that, either.
The 4th commandment is plain. Anyone who wants to twist it and try to circumvent it is free to do so.
But there's going to come a time in the near future when this issue will be brought to the forefront. And everyone will be able to knowledgeably choose between serving God or man in this matter.
AT THAT TIME, those who stifle conviction and choose for doctrine the commandment of man will as verily as I'm breathing receive the mark of the beast.
THAT TIME IS NOT YET.
NO ONE has yet received the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation 13 & 14 AT THIS TIME.
I've stated this countless times on this very website, but every time this subject comes up, folks get their feathers to flying like an angry, wet hen.
I've even quoted Mrs. White as saying it, and here is what Google Gemini 2.5 Pro has to say about her position:
---------------
Ellen G. White wrote extensively about the "mark of the beast," tying it to the enforcement of Sunday observance by law in the end times, in direct opposition to the Sabbath. Her consistent teaching was that the actual "mark" is not received until this issue becomes a direct test of loyalty to God versus loyalty to human decrees, after the issues have been made clear.
Here are some key quotes and references indicating that, in her time (and by extension, before the final crisis she described), no one had yet received the mark of the beast:
1. **Evangelism, p. 234:**
> "No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."
2. **Evangelism, p. 234 (continuing from the context above):**
> "Sunday observance is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet."
3. **Last Day Events, p. 224 (quoting Letter 11, 1890):**
> "The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God."
*(While this quote doesn't explicitly say "no one has yet received it," it clearly places the reception of the mark in the future context of a "final test" and a "law of the state" enforcing Sunday.)*
4. **The Great Controversy, p. 449:**
> "No one is condemned until he has had the light and has seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."
*(This is very similar to the Evangelism quote, emphasizing the future conditions.)*
5. **Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 258 (Manuscript 1, 1885):**
> "The third angel's message has not been given with the clearness and distinctness with which it must be given before the mark of the beast is received. The people must not be left in darkness. They must be enlightened. What is it? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment."
*(This implies that the conditions for receiving the mark—namely, the clear proclamation of the third angel's message—had not yet been fully met.)*
**Summary of her position:**
Ellen G. White taught that the reception of the mark of the beast is a future event, contingent upon:
* A law being enacted that enforces Sunday observance (the "counterfeit sabbath").
* The issues being made clear, particularly the claims of the Sabbath (the fourth commandment).
* Individuals then making a conscious choice to obey the human law in defiance of God's law.
Therefore, in her view, until these specific end-time conditions are met, no one could have received the mark of the beast. Sunday observance, in and of itself, was not the mark of the beast, but it *would become* the mark when enforced by law and chosen over God's Sabbath under those crisis conditions.
---------------
(References and quotes verifiable at m.egwwritings.org)
I can't follow around after anxious Adventistaphobes to make sure they're not getting the wrong idea about this subject.
And I'm not particularly exercised by accusations that certain Adventists aren't doing their due diligence in setting records straight, while objectors do more than theirs in keeping things muddled.
But, back to the mark of the beast being restricted to the future: Adventists understandably don't like to make this announcement too often because it tends to make people think—even if only subconsciously—that it's safe to trifle with God's longsuffering and mercy.
Sin is the transgression of the law, and every time we presumptuously break one of God's commandments it adds retroactively to the suffering of God's dear Son on the cross.
I reached a point in my life when what my parents knew about God and His will and Word was no longer sufficient for me.
Part of that transition was the knowledge that the 4th commandment had been trampled in the dust by Christendom for centuries.
I advise folks who disagree with me to make very sure they are correct.
VERY sure
- Dec 31, 2010
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You deleted one too many - Post 186 should of remained.
Are you able to bring back post 186 ?
If not please let me know - Thank You
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