SDAs, USA and the End times.

[PS95]

To whom it may concern,

This post is for informational purposes.

Argumentative and disagreeable replies will, in all likelihood, not be addressed by me.

The Internet is weighed down with quotes and misquotes from and about Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Adventism—I can't help that.

I really can't.

I'd like to be able to police the Internet so that only reliable information is disseminated, but I'm just one guy.

And I wish I could get other Seventh-day Adventists to stop saying unwise things. I can't do that, either.

The 4th commandment is plain. Anyone who wants to twist it and try to circumvent it is free to do so.

But there's going to come a time in the near future when this issue will be brought to the forefront. And everyone will be able to knowledgeably choose between serving God or man in this matter.

AT THAT TIME, those who stifle conviction and choose for doctrine the commandment of man will as verily as I'm breathing receive the mark of the beast.

THAT TIME IS NOT YET.

NO ONE has yet received the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation 13 & 14 AT THIS TIME.

I've stated this countless times on this very website, but every time this subject comes up, folks get their feathers to flying like an angry, wet hen.

I've even quoted Mrs. White as saying it, and here is what Google Gemini 2.5 Pro has to say about her position:

---------------

Ellen G. White wrote extensively about the "mark of the beast," tying it to the enforcement of Sunday observance by law in the end times, in direct opposition to the Sabbath. Her consistent teaching was that the actual "mark" is not received until this issue becomes a direct test of loyalty to God versus loyalty to human decrees, after the issues have been made clear.

Here are some key quotes and references indicating that, in her time (and by extension, before the final crisis she described), no one had yet received the mark of the beast:

1. **Evangelism, p. 234:**
> "No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."

2. **Evangelism, p. 234 (continuing from the context above):**
> "Sunday observance is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet."

3. **Last Day Events, p. 224 (quoting Letter 11, 1890):**
> "The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God."
*(While this quote doesn't explicitly say "no one has yet received it," it clearly places the reception of the mark in the future context of a "final test" and a "law of the state" enforcing Sunday.)*

4. **The Great Controversy, p. 449:**
> "No one is condemned until he has had the light and has seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."
*(This is very similar to the Evangelism quote, emphasizing the future conditions.)*

5. **Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 258 (Manuscript 1, 1885):**
> "The third angel's message has not been given with the clearness and distinctness with which it must be given before the mark of the beast is received. The people must not be left in darkness. They must be enlightened. What is it? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment."
*(This implies that the conditions for receiving the mark—namely, the clear proclamation of the third angel's message—had not yet been fully met.)*

**Summary of her position:**
Ellen G. White taught that the reception of the mark of the beast is a future event, contingent upon:
* A law being enacted that enforces Sunday observance (the "counterfeit sabbath").
* The issues being made clear, particularly the claims of the Sabbath (the fourth commandment).
* Individuals then making a conscious choice to obey the human law in defiance of God's law.

Therefore, in her view, until these specific end-time conditions are met, no one could have received the mark of the beast. Sunday observance, in and of itself, was not the mark of the beast, but it *would become* the mark when enforced by law and chosen over God's Sabbath under those crisis conditions.

---------------

(References and quotes verifiable at m.egwwritings.org)

I can't follow around after anxious Adventistaphobes to make sure they're not getting the wrong idea about this subject.

And I'm not particularly exercised by accusations that certain Adventists aren't doing their due diligence in setting records straight, while objectors do more than theirs in keeping things muddled.

But, back to the mark of the beast being restricted to the future: Adventists understandably don't like to make this announcement too often because it tends to make people think—even if only subconsciously—that it's safe to trifle with God's longsuffering and mercy.

Sin is the transgression of the law, and every time we presumptuously break one of God's commandments it adds retroactively to the suffering of God's dear Son on the cross.

I reached a point in my life when what my parents knew about God and His will and Word was no longer sufficient for me.

Part of that transition was the knowledge that the 4th commandment had been trampled in the dust by Christendom for centuries.

I advise folks who disagree with me to make very sure they are correct.

VERY sure

Barney, I appreciate the post and the quotes, Thanks

 

[David in NJ]

The 4th commandment is plain. Anyone who wants to twist it and try to circumvent it is free to do so.

1. **Evangelism, p. 234:**
> "No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast."

2. **Evangelism, p. 234 (continuing from the context above):**
> "Sunday observance is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet."

3. **Last Day Events, p. 224 (quoting Letter 11, 1890):**
> "The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted.

5. **Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 258 (Manuscript 1, 1885):**
> "The third angel's message has not been given with the clearness and distinctness with which it must be given before the mark of the beast is received. The people must not be left in darkness. They must be enlightened. What is it? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment."
*(This implies that the conditions for receiving the mark—namely, the clear proclamation of the third angel's message—had not yet been fully met.)*

**Summary of her position:**
Ellen G. White taught that the reception of the mark of the beast is a future event, contingent upon:
* A law being enacted that enforces Sunday observance (the "counterfeit sabbath").
* The issues being made clear, particularly the claims of the Sabbath (the fourth commandment).
* Individuals then making a conscious choice to obey the human law in defiance of God's law.

Therefore, in her view, until these specific end-time conditions are met, no one could have received the mark of the beast. Sunday observance, in and of itself, was not the mark of the beast, but it *would become* the mark when enforced by law and chosen over God's Sabbath under those crisis conditions.

Ellen G. White wrote extensively about the "mark of the beast," tying it to the enforcement of Sunday observance by law in the end times, in direct opposition to the Sabbath. Her consistent teaching was that the actual "mark" is not received until this issue becomes a direct test of loyalty to God versus loyalty to human decrees, after the issues have been made clear.

And this is where Ellen G. White moved away from the Gospel including those who follow her.

The LORD Jesus Christ never, not once, did HE ever use the 4th commandment as a 'acid-test' to determine one's salvation.

The LORD always points to HIMSELF as the true test if one is SAVED and walking in His commandments.

"Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me.
The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”

Sin is the transgression of the law, and every time we presumptuously break one of God's commandments it adds retroactively to the suffering of God's dear Son on the cross.

Are these your words @BarneyFife or Helen's because this is RCC doctrine.
Either way this is FALSEHOOD and SERIOUS ERROR for Christ suffered only "once" and never again = Hebrews 9:26

For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world;
but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Helen G White - Sin is the transgression of the law,

And the strength of sin is the law = 1 Corinthians 15:56

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

**Summary of her position:**
Ellen G. White taught that the reception of the mark of the beast is a future event, contingent upon:
* A law being enacted that enforces Sunday observance (the "counterfeit sabbath").
* The issues being made clear, particularly the claims of the Sabbath (the fourth commandment).
* Individuals then making a conscious choice to obey the human law in defiance of God's law.

Ellen G. Whites position fails the Commandment of God by seeking to re-establish the law and righteousness thru
mandated saturday observence = which is no different then RCC mandating sunday as the day of rest.
Both are directly opposed to faith in Christ who alone fulfilled the Law of God on our behalf = no one else has ever succeeded nor ever can.

Ellen G White's teaching is in opposition to CHRIST and His Righteousness which is APART from the law = Romans 3:21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

The Righteousness of God in Christ is the Commandment of God for all who desire Salvation.
There does not exist one statement, passage or verse in the NT Scriptures, from the Lord Jesus Christ
or from the Apostles that requires us to observe saturday above any other day of the week.
Any attempt to elevate saturday to be equal status to CHRIST is self-serving and is works based religion which is condemned by God.

Furthermore - The Mark of the Beast is not the commandment to worship on sunday = poppycock

The Mark of the Beast is CLEAR from Revelation AND neither saturday nor sunday is mentioned as part of it.
And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

@Brakelite @BarneyFife and all who are under Helen G White

We CANNOT defeat the enemy thru mandated saturday observence, in fact we give aid to the enemy when we try to
add to the Finished Work of Christ on the Cross.

Here is how the Saints defeat satan and the Mark of the Beast = Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.

The third angel's message has not been given with the clearness and distinctness with which it must be given before the mark of the beast is received. The people must not be left in darkness. They must be enlightened. What is it? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment."

"The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty"

The two statements above are in direct OPPOSITION to the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus the LORD.


We are called to follow the Lord Jesus Christ who is King of kings and Lord of lords not some deceased woman.

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28

 

[BarneyFife]

Barney, I appreciate the post and the quotes, Thanks

You're very welcome.

 

[Brakelite]

Quote..."The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty"

The statements above is in direct OPPOSITION to the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus the LORD.

I have need for you David. The Sabbath isn't the only test on loyalty in a world bent on idolatry and false worship.
Read the following and see how many other tests there are to loyalty to Jesus.
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me....
..... 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:31-36, 45-46 KJV

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This may come as a surprise to many, but you will not be judged by your faith. You will not be judged by your claims to understanding perfect doctrine. You will not be judged by your 'resting' in Christ. None of those are the tests for your loyalty. And you will be tested. Even now you are being tested. Every day you are tested. The question is asked of Peter 3 times. Do you love Me? Do you love Jesus? How does He know this? How does He demonstrate to the angels in heaven that you are fit company for holy beings and not liable to rebel and set up another revolution? How safe is heaven with you in it? What makes you different? What makes you a loyal trusted child of the kingdom, and not prone to continuing the worldly ways of this planet that would bring compromise and sin back into play?
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:31-36, 45-46 KJV

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The above aren't for rewards. They are tests of loyalty to see if you are fit for the kingdom. They are salvational. And you guys are thinking that the keeping God specific Ten Commandments in spirit and in letter aren't salvational? Like Barney said earlier, you think that so long as you don't lust after any women, it's okay to sleep with them. So long as you rest in Christ spiritually, it's okay to profane holy things... Like the Sabbath. That's not resting in Christ. That's presumption.

 

[Josho]

There are two women pictured in Revelation as being representative of opposing forces. If you are going to take Babylon the Great as literal, then you will have to take the woman of Revelation 12 as literal also. Thing is this. Both women have an abundance of characteristics and specific details connected to them, which are clearly metaphorical. If the details are metaphorical, why not the women themselves? And if the women are
metaphorical, where do we go to in order to find a consistent biblical solution as to what they are a metaphor for?

Throughout scripture, Babylon and Jerusalem were literal opposing forces. One was utterly destroyed, prophetically spoken of as being for ever uninhabitable. The other was spoken of as being spiritually destitute, forsaken of God, their house left unto them desolate.

In Revelation prophecy gives a distinct impression from many specific and general references, that the issues of the last days are no longer literal local issues, like between a literal Babylon and Jerusalem. But contrariwise, they are spiritual global institutions at war with each other because of differing ideologies. Interestingly, both claim they serve the God, both have their own versions of the gospel, and both have prophetic messages from 3 entities each one purporting to emanate from the God they worship. The Babylon the Great party, are by far in the majority, while the Jerusalem party is described as a remnant of the seed of the woman, whom Satan persecutes with great anger.

I may bring this up in the Babylon thread, but it's really strange you know, as you have a big growing city next to the ancient Babylon and part of the ancient Babylon was reconstructed along with the Ishtar Gate.

Whether if it's to do with anything with the Babylon in Revelation I do not know, it's just a thought, I just found it interesting, but yes no one lives in the original ancient city of Babylon itself, but there are many people living nearby it, the ancient city of Babylon is a tourist attraction now.

But I believe the Babylon in Revelation is most likely spiritual, I just don't think it has anything to do with any Christian church in particular and is more to do with paganism.

 

[Brakelite]

"Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me.

Mmmm. But you have decided that the 4th commandment in the Decalogue written by Jesus own finger in stone is one bridge too far.

 

[Brakelite]

I may bring this up in the Babylon thread, but it's really strange you know, as you have a big growing city next to the ancient Babylon and part of the ancient Babylon was reconstructed along with the Ishtar Gate.

Whether if it's to do with anything with the Babylon in Revelation I do not know, it's just a thought, I just found it interesting, but yes no one lives in the original ancient city of Babylon itself, but there are many people living nearby it, the ancient city of Babylon is a tourist attraction now.

But I believe the Babylon in Revelation is most likely spiritual, I just don't think it has anything to do with any Christian church in particular and is more to do with paganism.

Is this possible? Could it be that there may be, in these last days, a "Christian" religion that will take the world by storm attracting many millions into her fold while all the while being an apostate or false religion? Will the majority of people on this planet be sucked into her lies and deceptive teachings and at the same time persecute the minority of true believers? Two opposing churches both claiming to speak the truth, both claiming Christ as her head and Saviour, yet both having contrary destinies? The Book of Revelation reveals some startling insights into the characters of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Dragon.
Look carefully.
The counterfeit I speak of is far more than just a poor copy of God's church. It is a counterfeit God. The Antichrist is a substitute god for the real God. The Antichrist shows himself that he is God, (2 Thess.2:4) thus the worship that goes to him is also counterfeit.
Carefully study the following. They are comparisons revealing the true from the counterfeit.

Dragon/Satan.​

His place in heaven (Rev 12:3, 7, 8.)
He has a throne. (Rev 13:2; 2:13)
Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
He is worshipped. (13:4a)
Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)

Now compare:

God the Father​

Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4, 5)
He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)

The Land-beast or false prophet.​

Called the false prophet because he deceives people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
Lamb-like. (13:11)
Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
Applies mark of beast. (13:16)

Now compare:

The Holy Spirit​

Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
Christ-like, in fact is the very Spirit of Christ. (Jn 14:26; 16:14; Romans 8:9,10)
Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13, 14)
Directs our attention to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
Instills life to us, the image of Christ, His character. (Romans8:11,29; 2 Peter 1:3,4.)
Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3, 4.)

The sea-beast or antichrist.​

Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
Ten diadems. (13:1)
Ten horns (13:1)
Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
Was slain (13:3)
Resurrected (13:3)
Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)

Now compare:

Jesus Christ​

Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
Was slain (Rev 5:6)
Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)

For those who would indulge in thinking that perhaps Islam or some other religion or religious leader is the Antichrist, I would remind them that counterfeits are copies of the truth. You do not get counterfeit $99 notes. The counterfeit religion, the counterfeit god, the counterfeit worship of the last days, Babylon the Great, is a quasi Christian form of worship, a Christian God, a Christian form of church. That my friends is what makes it so dangerous, so deceptive.
It is imperative that we must understand the original before we can identify the false. That is what counterfeit experts do. They are so familiar with the real, that the false becomes obvious. We also must become absolutely familiar with the real Christ, we must worship Him in Spirit and in truth, then, and only then, can we hope to recognise the dangers that the Antichrist possesses. It is from this viewpoint that this study has evolved. It was through the reformer's close relationship with the true Lord that their conclusions were drawn. I believe I pointed this out in a previous post.
But it must be remembered and recognised that the apostolic church was an organised church. It was not an ad hoc ensemble of individual congregations all doing their own thing. Even the apostle Paul went to Jerusalem to confer with the church leaders, the apostles, to confirm whether he was in fact preaching the true gospel. And as the church grew, particularly in later centuries in Britain and the far East, church leaders were appointed to encourage, teach, lead and guide the church in missions and church life. These churches flourished and grew from strength to strength, and made massive miraculous and life changing inroads into the incumbent ruling paganism of those days, in countries from as far afield as Ireland to Arabia, and from Ethiopia to Scandinavia, from India to China. And all within 2 to 3 hundred years from the time of Christ. These churches must never be confused with the church / state union that emanated from Rome in the 6th century and became the bitterest enemy of Christ's church for over a 1000 years.

 

[ScottA]

So new thread, this just came to mind, I vaguely remember the SDAs have a view that the USA will play a very significant role in the end time prophecies.

Maybe it's because they are a massive cultural influence at the moment and have been since WWII? Whether it be entertainment or politics or something else and they also are one of the world leaders in military might.

Maybe these aren't the reasons? UK did used to be the leader on the global stage.

Could @Brakelite @BarneyFife or someone else please expand on this?

Wow, ten days and ten pages later!

So many different ideas, so much conjecture. It's enough to obscure what is actually true. But is this the way the truth is attained, by a multitude of people voicing their own understanding?

 

[shepherdsword]

My view on Revelation continuously shifts and changes. I read the book frequently and once thought I understood it's symbolism. I am not so sure I understand it at all now. Perhaps it, like so many other fulfilled prophecies, is not meant to be understood until it all comes to pass.

 

[Josho]

Wow, ten days and ten pages later!

So many different ideas, so much conjecture. It's enough to obscure what is actually true. But is this the way the truth is attained, by a multitude of people voicing their own understanding?

Well when it comes to the End Times in scripture, there are so many different interpretations, who has the right interpretation?

Well this much is true, we know the Bible is true, we know the book of Revelation is true, we know Jesus is King and the Devil is real, we know Heaven is real and we know Hell is real, we know that there is and will be more troubles in the end times, and we know Jesus is coming back.

However when it comes to topics like the tribulation, the beast of land, the beast of the sea, the Great Harlot, there are so many different interpretations.

 

[quietthinker]

This information was given so that we are aware of the times we live in. It is also given as a defence against deception.
Get it wrong and we open ourselves to being fooled.

 

[ScottA]

Well when it comes to the End Times in scripture, there are so many different interpretations, who has the right interpretation?

Well this much is true, we know the Bible is true, we know the book of Revelation is true, we know Jesus is King and the Devil is real, we know Heaven is real and we know Hell is real, we know that there is and will be more troubles in the end times, and we know Jesus is coming back.

However when it comes to topics like the tribulation, the beast of land, the beast of the sea, the Great Harlot, there are so many different interpretations.

The problem is, "we" are not suppose to interpret.

Just as there is only One true God, there is also only One true interpretation of God's word. Meaning, most of what we now see and consider as interpretations of God's truth, are actually only guesses and opinion; and yet those guesses and opinions are given and taken as authoritative. But that is not how this works--everyone does not get to take a shot at it. Which is not to say that only leaders in the church do--because they too are mostly appointed by men of opinion.

This is the result of God's spirit being poured out upon all flesh--both the good and the evil. It's no more than a shotgun blast of anything goes.

Why is it that after all this time of studying the scriptures, that people do not know and yield to the established method of God Himself revealing true interpretation? And I am not talking about the scriptures interpreting themselves--for they are just as confused as all other language, even stated as purposely obscured in parables and spirit. I am talking about God Himself speaking to people--directly or through His servants the prophets...as it has always been, specifically by the Spirit.

I tell you--it is because the same opinionated people have overrated egos and think of themselves as more than they are.

 

[David in NJ]

Mmmm. But you have decided that the 4th commandment in the Decalogue written by Jesus own finger in stone is one bridge too far.

JESUS points to Himself as the Place where the Decalogue is Fulfilled and therefore HE never reiterated the 4th commandment since it cannot satisfy the requirement of the Righteousness of God.

This is clearly demonstrated from the words of Christ that you posted in your Post #184 = which i will now show you.

Quote..."The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty"


I have need for you David. The Sabbath isn't the only test on loyalty in a world bent on idolatry and false worship.
Read the following and see how many other tests there are to loyalty to Jesus.
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me....
..... 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:31-36, 45-46 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

This may come as a surprise to many, but you will not be judged by your faith. You will not be judged by your claims to understanding perfect doctrine. You will not be judged by your 'resting' in Christ. None of those are the tests for your loyalty. And you will be tested. Even now you are being tested. Every day you are tested. The question is asked of Peter 3 times. Do you love Me? Do you love Jesus? How does He know this? How does He demonstrate to the angels in heaven that you are fit company for holy beings and not liable to rebel and set up another revolution? How safe is heaven with you in it? What makes you different? What makes you a loyal trusted child of the kingdom, and not prone to continuing the worldly ways of this planet that would bring compromise and sin back into play?
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:31-36, 45-46 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

The above aren't for rewards. They are tests of loyalty to see if you are fit for the kingdom. They are salvational. And you guys are thinking that the keeping God specific Ten Commandments in spirit and in letter aren't salvational? Like Barney said earlier, you think that so long as you don't lust after any women, it's okay to sleep with them. So long as you rest in Christ spiritually, it's okay to profane holy things... Like the Sabbath. That's not resting in Christ. That's presumption.

This may come as a surprise to many, but you will not be judged by your faith.

False teaching as it is contrary to the words of God.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6

You will not be judged by your claims to understanding perfect doctrine.

False teaching as it is contrary to the words of God

Give ear, O you heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: - Deuteronomy 32:2
Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”
the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You will not be judged by your 'resting' in Christ.

False teaching as it is contrary to the words of God

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His Rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them;
but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
For we who have believed do enter that rest,

Take Notice how your statements directly oppose the words of God = same practice as RCC

You say we are not judged by our faith - God Says we are now and will be = GOSPEL, Romans & Hebrews ch11
You say we will not be judged by our doctrine - God Says we are now and will be = GOSPEL & 2 Timothy 3:15
You say we will not be judged by Resting in Christ - God Says we are now and will be = GOSPEL & Hebrews ch4

There is even more in your post which i will later share with you from the LOVE of God in Christ Jesus our Lord

For now please review your statements to God's words that are outlined herein.

This Post is His love and mine for you @Brakelite and @BarneyFife

 

[Lizbeth]

I may bring this up in the Babylon thread, but it's really strange you know, as you have a big growing city next to the ancient Babylon and part of the ancient Babylon was reconstructed along with the Ishtar Gate.

Whether if it's to do with anything with the Babylon in Revelation I do not know, it's just a thought, I just found it interesting, but yes no one lives in the original ancient city of Babylon itself, but there are many people living nearby it, the ancient city of Babylon is a tourist attraction now.

But I believe the Babylon in Revelation is most likely spiritual, I just don't think it has anything to do with any Christian church in particular and is more to do with paganism.

I believe we are to understand "Babylon" as being the spirit or prince of the world that tries to take the people of God captive. And if we grieve Him enough He would even give us over to it, like He did with Israel of old. It is a harlot, spiritually adulterous spirit.....Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. Her "merchants" trade in false doctrine and souls of men. Does that sound familiar, with all the filthy rich ministries we see nowadays? Merchants indeed. That spirit had taken over Israel and Jerusalem in the first century, mixing worship of God with pagan worship and sins, and hence was judged by God. Those words fulfilled then....but also an example and warning to the church. To the Jew first, then the Gentile.....what has been will be again. As I understand it.

 

[Lizbeth]

Mmmm. But you have decided that the 4th commandment in the Decalogue written by Jesus own finger in stone is one bridge too far.

Not at all....just that it is fulfilled in the new way of the spirit now, not in the old way of the letter and 'beggardly' elements of this world and flesh. If believers were commanded to keep the Sabbath physically, Paul would have simply said so instead of judging that Gentiles are not to be burdened with anything except to avoid fornication and eating of blood. And he ruled and instructed elsewhere it is up to the individual whether to keep sabbaths or not in the physical sense. Its' ok to just discuss the subject, whether or not and why or why not....but we are instructed not to let anyone judge,ie, govern and rule over us in this matter. Trying to impose sabbath-keeping on others violates Paul's instructions as an apostle, who had the Spirit of God and was speaking/writing by the Spirit of God.

 

[Josho]

The problem is, "we" are not suppose to interpret.

Just as there is only One true God, there is also only One true interpretation of God's word. Meaning, most of what we now see and consider as interpretations of God's truth, are actually only guesses and opinion; and yet those guesses and opinions are given and taken as authoritative. But that is not how this works--everyone does not get to take a shot at it. Which is not to say that only leaders in the church do--because they too are mostly appointed by men of opinion.

This is the result of God's spirit being poured out upon all flesh--both the good and the evil. It's no more than a shotgun blast of anything goes.

Why is it that after all this time of studying the scriptures, that people do not know and yield to the established method of God Himself revealing true interpretation? And I am not talking about the scriptures interpreting themselves--for they are just as confused as all other language, even stated as purposely obscured in parables and spirit. I am talking about God Himself speaking to people--directly or through His servants the prophets...as it has always been, specifically by the Spirit.

I tell you--it is because the same opinionated people have overrated egos and think of themselves as more than they are.

Now Scott, I do believe in prophets, and I do believe God can speak directly to His people. From what I have seen though, it's usually words from God about a specific person, or group of people, or for the whole Body of Christ in general, or for the future of a nation.

I do not know if this still is the case, but they used to teach the 3 differing views on the tribulation at Bible colleges....

Why is it that so many different denominations claim to hear this or that from God, and get several different views on the book of Revelation???

Perhaps we are just not meant to know who the Beast of the Land or who the Beast of the Sea is, or who is the Great Harlot, until the time is right? And as for the tribulation, I don't think anyone was ever meant to know exactly when that is going to happen, as no one knows the day when Jesus is coming back... But there are still differing views like pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, mid-tribulation, we are in the tribulation? Who is hearing right?

This is why these things are open for discussion.

Perhaps the time is not right for us to know these things yet.

Or

We could also just all copy and paste the whole book of Revelation here and say nothing else, then everyone would be right.

The original purpose of this thread though was to see where the SDAs are coming from.

 

[MatthewG]

Now Scott, I do believe in prophets, and I do believe God can speak directly to His people. From what I have seen though, it's usually words from God about a specific person, or group of people, or for the whole Body of Christ in general, or for the future of a nation.

I do not know if this still is the case, but they used to teach the 3 differing views on the tribulation at Bible colleges....

Why is it that so many different denominations claim to hear this or that from God, and get several different views on the book of Revelation???

Perhaps we are just not meant to know who the Beast of the Land or who the Beast of the Sea is, or who is the Great Harlot, until the time is right? And as for the tribulation, I don't think anyone was ever meant to know exactly when that is going to happen, as no one knows the day when Jesus is coming back... But there are still differing views like pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, mid-tribulation, we are in the tribulation? Who is hearing right?

This is why these things are open for discussion.

Perhaps the time is not right for us to know these things yet.

Or

We could also just all copy and paste the whole book of Revelation here and say nothing else, then everyone would be right.

I’m not the only guy on the board that believes Revelation has come to pass already, I get some of the nuances you shared already but let me know, lol…

Land and Sea is supposedly figurative of Jewish and Gentiles.

Then you have no more sea (when all was completed Brazen Sea) show casing no more material religion.

Gotta kind of look at the words and see for yourself.

You actually will have to go and look and see other studies done or how Hebrew thought process is cause revelation is Jewish by nature of the language within it.

It’s a lot of hard excoriating work.

 

[Josho]

The problem is, "we" are not suppose to interpret.

Just as there is only One true God, there is also only One true interpretation of God's word. Meaning, most of what we now see and consider as interpretations of God's truth, are actually only guesses and opinion; and yet those guesses and opinions are given and taken as authoritative. But that is not how this works--everyone does not get to take a shot at it. Which is not to say that only leaders in the church do--because they too are mostly appointed by men of opinion.

This is the result of God's spirit being poured out upon all flesh--both the good and the evil. It's no more than a shotgun blast of anything goes.

Why is it that after all this time of studying the scriptures, that people do not know and yield to the established method of God Himself revealing true interpretation? And I am not talking about the scriptures interpreting themselves--for they are just as confused as all other language, even stated as purposely obscured in parables and spirit. I am talking about God Himself speaking to people--directly or through His servants the prophets...as it has always been, specifically by the Spirit.

I tell you--it is because the same opinionated people have overrated egos and think of themselves as more than they are.

Going over this post again, I do say I can't disagree with this though. There is only 1 true God and 1 true interpretation of God's word and a lot of what we see now are indeed opinions and guesses.

 

[MatthewG]

Going over this post again, I do say I can't disagree with this though. There is only 1 true God and 1 true interpretation of God's word and a lot of what we see now are indeed opinions and guesses.

I personally believe, that there far extremes on left and right side of it all together.

There are people out there who literally want to watch everything become obliterated.

In 70Ad, with the nation of Israel going up in smoke, was a time so great it would never happen again.

Yet, the other side states, America is drenched in it's sins and Jesus is gonna show up over here (not over there in Israel) and that God's wrath is gonna fall out on America, and and people literally want to see these things come about.

The only problem, Jesus stated a generation (40 years worth of time since he stated those things) would see those things come about which would never be so great again.

It's a real problem when you aren't able to put those things together, and all you are left with guesses and opinions.

You can see the angst of those in Eschatology all the time with one person or another.

I believe that Jesus did come, and the wrath was poured out among them in that day, for what they had done and it wraps the whole age up. However it so far left a field to that majority of beliefs out there talked about whom are waiting for it all to happen over again when Jesus said it would never be so great again.

That is why I do believe we have some historical writers which document the destruction of Jerusalem/Israel, at that point in time, which actually back up the Words of Yeshua in what they would see, and what Yahavah himself stated concerning their destruction in the old testament.

Again though, these are much harder topics to touch on and even walking in to a church you're hardly ever going to hear them because it so drab and boring to the audiences, you'll not make any money, let alone have anyone left in the seats.

 

[MatthewG]

I personally believe, that there far extremes on left and right side of it all together.

There are people out there who literally want to watch everything become obliterated.

In 70Ad, with the nation of Israel going up in smoke, was a time so great it would never happen again.

Yet, the other side states, America is drenched in it's sins and Jesus is gonna show up over here (not over there in Israel) and that God's wrath is gonna fall out on America, and and people literally want to see these things come about.

The only problem, Jesus stated a generation (40 years worth of time since he stated those things) would see those things come about which would never be so great again.

It's a real problem when you aren't able to put those things together, and all you are left with guesses and opinions.

You can see the angst of those in Eschatology all the time with one person or another.

I believe that Jesus did come, and the wrath was poured out among them in that day, for what they had done and it wraps the whole age up. However it so far left a field to that majority of beliefs out there talked about whom are waiting for it all to happen over again when Jesus said it would never be so great again.

That is why I do believe we have some historical writers which document the destruction of Jerusalem/Israel, at that point in time, which actually back up the Words of Yeshua in what they would see, and what Yahavah himself stated concerning their destruction in the old testament.

Again though, these are much harder topics to touch on and even walking in to a church you're hardly ever going to hear them because it so drab and boring to the audiences, you'll not make any money, let alone have anyone left in the seats.

Just 2 more cents, my view of believing in fulfilment prevents all this wanting. All this destruction having been done. Jesus coming back. The question left: what is the hope? That is the mountain diving factor.

What is the hope in a place now we live where all things are completed by Jesus and now we live in the new heavens and new earth (spiritually)?

The hope? To have peace, and contentment with God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. To live your life, by worshiping God in spirit and in truth. To make your decisions freely, and live your life in accountability to yourself before Yahavah, whom gives the holy spirit in the hearts of those whom seek out him.


The response? Thats just to much freedom,, so lets digress backwards in needing something, to hope for in the other realm of possibilities, or we need someone else to hold our hand, or we need someone to dictate what we should do.