My mind is not at all set on those things, and I do not entertain such things at all. I don't think about or dwell on the subject, other than that I have prayed off and on for the Lord to raise up people to do deliverance because of seeing the need for it. It just happened that I saw those things a few times over the years. Completely unsolicited, spontaneous and with no hype, and not in any kind of church service. I'm far from the only one who can testify about such things.
Uncovering the Devil's Strategy
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Amen, and I believe that word quickly can mean suddenly too. At at time when we do not expect, as the scripture says.
Yep, last time I checked anyway, lol.Isn't the due a lady?
Shouldn't that be dudette?
Amen...we would have to ignore so many scriptures or consider that they no longer apply. (Maybe Matthew is a cessationist too..?)Then you must be befuddled as to WHY there is so much darkness and evil going on in the world.
You don't reckon the Lord is running around the world spreading darkness and evil do ya?
Is Hebrews 2:8 a lie?
The natural mind of the natural man has trouble grasping certain spiritual paradoxes.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Well, in this day and age it's a good idea to check and make sure!
Yes me too.
My understanding of scripture is that, God's wrath is towards sin and the only way to escape it is for the blood of Jesus to free us from the devil's deceptions. For those who are led by the Spirit. Either the Spirit or the flesh, no mixture.
It is either feeding from the tree of life or the tree of knowing good and evil.
I wonder if by the fire is something to do with deathbed repentance over a flesh led life.
Please give me the text for 'He will not count our unwitting and inadvertent sins against us, as long our heart attitude is right and we're running the race in sincerity the best we know how.' Thanks. It is such an important thing, I wish to test my beliefs on this.
That is what I glean from the scriptures overall. Especially Romans 4, and balancing that out with other scriptures like where it says if we keep on willfully sinning there is no more sacrifice for sins, and where it says the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. James acknowledged that "we offend in many ways all". John said if we say we have no sin we lie. I have the impression that the Lord graciously longsuffers our inadvertent missteps and foibles in our immaturity along the way, as long as we are penitent and seeking to do better. Otherwise grace isn't grace. (That is different from someone who is continually sinning knowingly and deliberately without remorse...that makes a mockery of salvation, and signifies a seared conscience and falling away.) But we all err inadvertently in ways that we aren't even aware of until/unless the Lord reveals it to us. It is why we are told to bear with one another....in other words extend the same grace to others that we ourselves are receiving from the Lord......our foibles are usually apparent to others long before we become aware of them. The Lord's supper is even provision and opportunity to examine ourselves and bring anything to the cross that we find we need to. Grace is grace and it is given to us because we need it, not because we don't. As long as we don't abuse that grace by using it a license to sin deliberately and wilfully, because God is not mocked.
Sorry for the delay, which was mainly due to connection problems but also my brain was not quite online and had decided to take a day off :)
Of course, wilful sin is not acceptable and we are in a state of backsliding or even apostacy in that case. Inadvertent mishaps as you call them, are what separates the two schools of holiness theology, as we have been discussing regarding Keswick theology v early church teaching which has made an appearance at times throughout church history in the west.
I have had the feeling a few times that epi has been very much influenced by it but it has been hard for me to get him to name his sources of influence. So I wonder if you have likewise gathered that influence too.
I get that idea when he talks about there being 'three paths' ie the unsaved, the believers walking in the Spirit, and those still walking in the flesh, or carnal though known as 'righteous' according to him and includes even the non religious too which has caused confusion here. I guess saying that their intentions are good which is roughly what you said. Is that correct?
But this is what Paul is preaching in Romans 7, when he recollects his own experience of his attempts to overcome these 'mishaps' despite his struggles '18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
His intentions were good '22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
So the text is about the situation whereby he is under conviction that these inadvertent sins are not acceptable to God, and why should they be when God has the power to deliver us to be what we once were (the state of Adam before he sinned or in his case innocent in preparation for perfection from eating from the tree of life).
Here is a quote from an orthodox source. I know you don't like the word theosis but it is only the Greek for the ultimate state we are discussing which can easily be replaced by entire sanctification for us westerners.
'PARTAKERS OF DIVINITY: THE ORTHODOX DOCTRINE OF THEOSIS
Transfiguration of our nature from image to likeness we are deified, according to the words of the psalmist (Ps 82:6).65 Salvation, then, "is not possible but by the deification of the saved," writes Dionysius, and "deification is likeness and union with God."66 Irenaeus sums up the dilemma of humanity and the remedy of the incarnation as the deification of people through the movement from image to likeness: The Word of God was made man, assimilating Himself into man, and man into Himself, so that by means of his resemblance to the Son, man might become precious to the Father. For all times long past, it was said that man was created after the image of God, but it was not actually shown; for the Word was as yet invisible, after whose image man was created. Wherefore also he did lose the similitude. When, however, the Word of God became flesh, He confirmed both of these: for He showed forth the image truly, since He became Himself what was His image; and He re-established the similitude after a sure manner, by assimilating man to the invisible Father by means of the visible Word.67 In this assimilation to God, people move from nature to grace, from the divine image to the divine likeness, from sin to salvation through deification.' (JETS 37/3 (September 1994) 365-379 PARTAKERS OF DIVINITY: THE ORTHODOX DOCTRINE OF THEOSIS DANIEL B. CLENDENIN)
There is a process on getting there and it involves what you talked about that is, sinning unintentionally and coming for forgiveness, but that stage is for our carnal times and not for walking in the Spirit.
What of the carnal ones? Well I believe that they are under God's wrath because everything in scripture is simple and not mixed, so good and evil, spirit and flesh, sinner and saint etc. How God deals with those who are striving but unable to enter in, I can only say I do not know.
Jonathan Edwards brought his church into revival after preaching the well known sermon 'Sinners in the hands of an angry God' and said that they are hanging over the gates of hell by a thread. Today is the day of salvation when we hear the full gospel.
I must add that Dr Andrew Murray shows his theology to be unbalanced here and not in accordance with early teaching, though he has led many on to the pathway to holiness.
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My influence is in a direct connection to God and walk in His resurrection life and power. :) I don't follow men nor do I follow the teachings of any man. The bible will fully support my testimony as it is written by the same Spirit of God. Not many will be able to either understand the depth of what I'm teaching unless they too have walked where I have. Because of a lack of faith prevalent in these modern times....and very sad lack of Bereans who are honest and search the scriptures for the truth...I will be misunderstood and mistrusted. But I am about God's work.
There are four eternal destinies...as Jesus Himself teaches. One must pay attention in class.. ;)
All who fear God and do righteousness are accepted with God. Peter said that... Do you mistrust Peter as well? Or is it just that you have a certain doctrinal bent that you are looking to affirm? There are many such truth benders throughout church history.
Paul is testifying to the need to be broken in the outer man in order that God empower the inner man to a walk in the resurrection power of God in Christ...which is NT grace.
Jesus said to go into the highways and compel those both bad and good (carnal ones) to come is...as GUESTS. (read Mat.. 22)
I hear this all the time on this board, 'I only follow what the Spirit has taught me and my understanding of the Bible is the right one, and I will quote texts to prove it'.
LOL so now we have tens of thousands of interpretations.
Paul said: This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (KJV)2 Corinthians 13:1
So if we are a lone wolf and do not line up with the early church doctrines, we are deluded.
Oh yes, even worse, 4 paths when in Genesis we find only two: tree of life and tree of mans understanding.
I have never disputed that. Do your own homework.
Indeed but guests can be asked to leave when their sins are revealed. All man are worthy of a chance but most listen to the god of this world.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Feelings don't teach; the Holy Spirit teaches. Don't ever "feel" that the Holy Spirit is "saying" to do such and such. Too many people don't listen to the Holy Spirit, because of the pride in their hearts, and the need to control what they do. Give it to God, trust in Him completely, then listen. The Holy Spirit does speak to you. Don't worry about anything, that is trust. Proverbs 3:5-7.
Missed these two out.
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. James 3:2.
James is allowing the perfect man who not only does not offend but controls his flesh. He is using 'we' in the sense of what is known as the 'royal we'.
John said if we say we have no sin we lie:
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8.
As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4).
In the same letter we read:
He that commiteth sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.
Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him neither known Him John 3:6
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 1 John 3:9
He that abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, as even as He walked 1 John 2:6
He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4
Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
My little children, these things I write to you that you sin not. 1 John 2:1
John’s first letter was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.
The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the early or proto Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism.’ These Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.
We see that John is describing a process whereby we can test ourselves to see if we are in the true Light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, and pointing out where the early Gnostic idea has been creeping in:
1:7 if we say we have no sin (as in Gnosticism, my insert) we deceive ourselves 1:8 but if we confess our sin, He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here John shows where the deceivers depart from the truth. Their teaching was that they had no need of this cleansing, as they did not consider immoral actions as sin due to matter being evil which was escaped through having ‘special’ knowledge and not in keeping God’s law. They maintained that a child of God could still sin and continue to have fellowship with God, a concept which was known as ‘spirit salvation’.
cont'
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The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.
In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-
1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.
Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-
1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.
So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.
Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.
The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.
In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-
1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.
Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-
1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.
So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.
Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.
No worries......and I sure do know the feeling sister, lol. ;)
ok, but I believe we should keep in mind that even the teachings of the early church, after the apostles died, need to be tested.....because Paul said after he departed wolves would come in not sparing the flock. Even in his day things were going awry that he was having to correct and warn the flock about.
I don't think I know enough to really compare the different schools of thought or recognize where someone else is influenced. I've only recently become fully conscious of the fact that I have really been looking for and needing and hoping for more witnesses to things I believe the Lord has shown me in scripture.
My understanding at present is that there are only two paths...one is the broad way and the other is the narrow way. The broad way I believe includes unbelievers and believers who are using grace as a license to sin or for whatever reason are just not engaged in the race or seeking righteousness and are worldly. As babes and immature believers I believe we were placed on the right path that is leading to maturity and potentially the full stature of Christ......whether we all remain on the narrow path is another question. When the testings and trials start to come, I suspect and seem to observe that many are tempted to take the easy way out and roll off the altar/narrow path... I'm guessing the most common one these days might be to divorce one's spouse against the words of Jesus because of being "unhappy"........but this is why trials are called temptations. I don't believe the good intentions of unbelievers by themselves are enough for eternal life (though maybe in some cases it can attract the favour of God so that He gives them the gospel, like Cornelious). We need to have come to have our good intentions by the new birth and coming to faith, being enlightened and having God/Christ revealed to us, so that now our intention is that we want to obey and be pleasing to Him because of knowing this is right and true, knowing that HE is right and true. Something of eternal worth did happen to us when we came to faith.....nobody can tell me otherwise......we changed for the better....our good intentions and desire to please God I believe are the fruit of the Spirit...but just not yet fruit brought to perfection, because the flesh and carnal mind (old man) still interferes and we still need instruction and washing of the word and to have the power of the old man broken through the trials and chastisements we go through as God's children. As new believers we are or were just at the beginning of the race with good seed and all its holy potential having been planted in us. As I understand these things at present. I have in mind that maybe none of us can quite nail all this down in every detail because of seeing through a glass darkly.
I understand Romans 7 as talking about the as yet immature or carnal believer. I don't think Paul was talking about himself before he was enlightened, but for a season afterwards. I don't think unbelieving souls under the Law really "delight" in the Law of God after the inward man (only the regenerated inner man can delight in it).....they tend to see it as a drudgery and a burden and not as a beautiful light in a dark world that we are aspiring to. That is why Paul said if I do that which I don't want/will to do, it is no longer I who sin but sin living in me.......how the Lord is graciously looking at these inadvertent sins concerning His babies and little children, not condemning them.
I seemed to have observed and been experiencing that believers follow the same pattern as unbelieving Israel in the wilderness, their journey is a picture of our journey.....but we have to remember it is not literal because we as believers start out on a higher spiritual level, if I can put it that way, with the new birth. Their journey was just the shadow or type in the natural realm....ours is the spiritual substance. Part of that pattern involves being tutored in the Law leading to Christ....so we follow that pattern also, but not that we are any longer under the curse of it as they were. Similar to Israel's pattern, we need to realize our inability to fulfill the Law (Christ's commandments)in our own flesh and carnal nature so that we seek HIM to be finally and truly delivered from that old man still clinging to us. They sought it in the gospel, but we seek it in a "second blessing" and full measure of the Spirit. Anyway it is good to see Andrew Murray saying much the same thing...another witness for me. The Israelites dying those 40 years in the wilderness is a picture of believers dying to ourselves so that we can enter and receive the promise. Flesh cannot enter...it had to die. Their "children" in the natural realm represent our innocent new inner man, once it is no longer hampered and encumbered by the flesh.
No, to clarify, I don't at all believe our inadvertent sins are acceptable to God, but He graciously chooses to overlook and forgive at least some of them as we do it in ignorance, not wilfully on purpose. Like a parent not holding their little children to the same standard they would expect if their children were adults. We should hate even our inadvertent sins, when we become aware of them and repent and seek to do better. We should be starting to know ourselves better as the years go by, if we are growing, and allowing and seeking for His light to "search our hearts and see if there be any wicked way in us" and that is why we seek to be delivered from ourself, to die to ourself.....because of "seeing" in the light that we need to be.
More coming....I have to go out for a while.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Not so far.
Actually, its only the born again, who are become "the rightousness of God in Christ" , who are accepted By God.
NT Grace, is The Cross of Christ, = being offered to Sinners as : "forgiveness" and "Righteousness".
And once a believer has received God's Gift of Righteousness, being confirmed by being "born again".. now being "made righteous".......they are to do this..
= "present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable SERVICE"........ Paul Teaches.
So, we see that Discipleship, or the walk of faith, is our SERVICE.......its not Salvation.........as Jesus on The Cross is God's Salvation.
And how do you do that?....>How do you compel them?
Paul teaches..
"""""" For the PREACHING of THE CROSS.... = is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved It is the Power of God"..
Behold
Well-Known Member
Hope I'm not rambling too much, it is a lot to discuss and put in writing.
Yes I admit to being a stickler for words at times, deification and theosis seem like they might be overstating the case somewhat. I agree that Christ's transfiguration is also something we are to get hold of. I had always wondered about it... so now I know it is talking about that entire sanctification and second blessing. Glorification might be another term for it.....where it says "He comes to be glorified in His saints" - His glory in us. Jesus is our forerunner and we are to follow in His footsteps, so it stands to reason that if He experienced something on earth (like transfiguration) He did so for our sakes so that we could follow on to experience it also.
I agree. I don't think anyone is in a state of sin or sins at all when walking in the spirit, it is a state of being transported (transfigured?) above the flesh and sin.....which we can taste of at times along the way, as part of the process. "Taste and see that the Lord is good"...so that we can be inspired and encouraged to seek and eat the entire meal. I like how Andrew Murray, what I'm reading so far, has an encouraging stance, he is encouraging and inspiring and strengthening faith rather than beating us down with the truth. I have fear of the unknown with this, for those who have fear Murray has the right approach in my opinion.....we need to think of surrendering ourselves entirely to the Lord as being a good thing and a blessing, to be able to trust the Lord with our entire life, to hand ourselves entirely over to Him without conditions. Think it's good to focus on what we will be receiving, not on what we are afraid we might be losing or of what the Lord might ask of us....."for the joy that was set before Him, He endured the cross."
Under His wrath only in the sense of being judged and chastised now so that we will not be judged with the world....? Which I don't think of that as being wrath but rather discipline..God's training and discipling. The child of God is no longer under wrath in the strict sense of the word...I don't believe we are under the curse and condemnation of the Law. As born again and enlightened believers who have received His Spirit and faith that is not of our own, we differ from the world and "Israel after the flesh". We're not appointed to wrath............unless someone falls away, then they are back in the same condition as an unbeliever. I know we need to be careful of not abusing His grace though, that would be making a mockery of it and wouldn't end well....we dont' want to make it sound as though His grace is something to be taken for granted.
“Striving but not able to enter in”…….seems to refer to them running out of time, if we look at the context. And the parable of the virgins indicates this as well. We need to be accruing that extra oil by paying a price for it now as we go along, counting the cost as we go. I wonder if being cast into outer darkness speaks to the unwise virgins losing their faith in the end? That would seem to agree with another scripture about the servant who didn’t invest his talent (pay the price)….even what he had would be taken away and given to another.
The fear of the Lord is a real thing, and we certainly need it. But I also believe we need the encouragement of being reminded of His grace, too when appropriate, otherwise some of us we might be tempted to give up on ourselves at times. These things are spiritual in nature.....to my understanding He portions each of them out to each soul and reminds us of each one, if and when He knows in His wisdom we need whichever one. I can certainly understand why a complacent, lackadaisical church needs to be shaken out of complacency with holy fear, but if some souls are despairing and discouraged they might need encouragement or comforting at the right time. I think of God as being a perfect Father. I've heard a few testimonies of some being visited with His holy fear that shook them to the core....they thought they were goners.......and I just think if that's what I need then Lord please do it.
I don't think I'm cottoning on to where Andrew Murray and earlier church differ exactly, I must have missed something, foggy brain...do you mind laying out the main points they differ on for me maybe? Just if you have the time and when you're having a good day...no rush. :)
Even so, God may send us helpers to our faith from time to time, true? Witnesses to the truth. Because as Hepzibah rightly said, to let the truth be established on the strength of two or three witnesses. It doesn't mean we have to "follow" those witnesses or agree with everything they say. Heck the Lord may even choose to send an unclean bird (rraven) to feed us when necessary. We don't have to eat the whole unclean bird, just the portion of true bread they may have. And maybe we are all unclean birds really, as I'm sure we all still have things we need to learn or be corrected or tweeked on.
Been looking, but I cant seem to find that scripture...which one are you referring to here Epi? I'm just wondering if the "all who fear God" there might be referring to all within a subset of those who know Christ. (If even righteous living Jews under the Law needed the gospel to be saved, so how much more unbelieving Gentiles)
Amen, I agree that we need to be broken...."by reason of breakings they purify themselves" and "rend/break your hearts, not just your garments"......and "plough/break up your fallow ground" are a few references to this. And agree that grace is power....but that grace is also forgiveness...where Paul said in those Rom. 7 verses, "if I do that which I would not, it is no longer I who sin but sin living in me"....that is God not counting his sin against him....grace. Agrees with "Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord does not count against him."
I've taken that to mean both those who are living decently and honestly apart from God, as well as those who are living in abject sins, because we know from observation that God saves both kinds of people...... but will keep your view on a back burner just in case I see something down the road that backs it up. (or He could be saying two things at once).
Yes...BUT...how many believers are actually really truly dong that? Offering ourselves as living sacrifices in 100% consecration? We may have thought we are doing that, but are we really? The vast majority of us (including myself) are still on the throne of our lives ruling and serving God as we see fit, obeying some things but not entirely in other things. The idea here is to abdicate our self-rule and give the rule entirely to the Lord, aka die to ourselves. Our example the Israelites after being circumcised and crossing the first body of water, then had to die in the wilderness before consecrating themselves and being "circumcised a second time" as it were, in crossing a second body of water to enter and walk in the land of promise.
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