Did the Serpent deceive A&E by lying, or by telling the truth?

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St. SteVen

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The knee-jerk reaction is to claim the serpent lied.
Let's give this a closer look.

Genesis 2:15-17 NIV
The Lord God took the man and put him in
the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man,
“You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil,
for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3:1-5 NIV
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of
the wild animals the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God really say,
‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent,
“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit
from the tree that is in the middle of the garden,
and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,”
the serpent said to the woman.
5 “For God knows that when you eat from it
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,
knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said,
“The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed
to reach out his hand and take also from
the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Did the Serpent deceive A&E by lying,
or by telling the truth?


Discussion questions:
- What were the stated consequences WHEN Adam and Eve ate from the tree?
- Did Adam understand these consequences?
- What did the serpent say to A&E?
- Was there any truth in what the Serpent said?
- Why did God ban the man from the garden?

Bonus question:
- What sort of death did A&E die the day they ate thereof?

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Behold

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4 “You will not certainly die,”

What Satan actually did was question God's word, with his own interpretation, to try to induce DOUBT, which produces doubt in the hearer.

This is because the Devil is the first "bible corrector'.. He's the inventor of the deception that is "you can't trust the bible, its not the final authority, it has errors in it, ... talk to a Priest... or find a commentary and a scholar....instead.. ... or, you wont surely die... Hell isn't real..... Everyone goes to Heaven".

But they did, die.
And now, we are ALL trapped inside : "the body is dead because of sin", thanks to their Choice.

And today a lot of people who doubted the Bible, rejected The Savior , and were told that anyone who believes in Damanation and Hell, is "just kinda unsophisticated and doesn't understand Sheol or Gehenna."", died today and went to Hell and they believe it exists now, and they all Believe In Jesus now and forever, and its not going to help them,........... as you can't be born again in Hell.

the serpent said to the woman.
5 “For God knows that when you eat from it
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,
knowing good and evil.”

In your verse.... we see that the Devil is tempting someone with a Supernatural experience, and that is one of the most enticing things that Satan can offer you to pursue... Reader.
In the 60's some Pop and Rock bands wrote about "are you Experienced".. or "Break on through to the other side'.. or have a "Magic Carpet ride"...
So, this is the same tempation as "eat of the Tree and you'll"""........rebranded.
 
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MatthewG

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2 Corinthians 11:3 American Standard Version (ASV)But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.
 
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St. SteVen

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Looks like he told the truth to me. He didn't exactly explain ALL the consequences, though, did he?
Agree.
I question whether Adam understood the consequences.
What was death to him?

Like telling a toddler not to play in the road, or they will be killed.

[
 

marks

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The knee-jerk reaction is to claim the serpent lied.
Let's give this a closer look.

Genesis 2:15-17 NIV
The Lord God took the man and put him in
the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man,
“You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil,
for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3:1-5 NIV
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of
the wild animals the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God really say,
‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent,
“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit
from the tree that is in the middle of the garden,
and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,”
the serpent said to the woman.
5 “For God knows that when you eat from it
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,
knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said,
“The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed
to reach out his hand and take also from
the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Did the Serpent deceive A&E by lying,
or by telling the truth?


Discussion questions:
- What were the stated consequences WHEN Adam and Eve ate from the tree?
- Did Adam understand these consequences?
- What did the serpent say to A&E?
- Was there any truth in what the Serpent said?
- Why did God ban the man from the garden?

Bonus question:
- What sort of death did A&E die the day they ate thereof?

[
God said they would die. The serpent said they would not.

Is this really a question? Yes, the serpent lied.

Much love!
 

marks

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Agree.
I question whether Adam understood the consequences.
What was death to him?

Like telling a toddler not to play in the road, or they will be killed.
The Bible is silent concerning what Adam did and did not understand.

But let me ask you this. Would God have communicated to Adam sufficient to understand what God was telling Him? Or do you think God left Adam in ignorance with this strange and unknowable message, "you will surely die".

Much love!













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St. SteVen

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The Bible is silent concerning what Adam did and did not understand.
I agree.
The encounter with the Serpent is telling though.
If he really understood, he would have stepped in and done something to protect himself and his wife.

But let me ask you this. Would God have communicated to Adam sufficient to understand what God was telling Him? Or do you think God left Adam in ignorance with this strange and unknowable message, "you will surely die".
That's a mystery.
It seems that most Christian are still in the dark on the subject as well.


[
 

marks

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If he really understood, he would have stepped in and done something to protect himself and his wife.
Again, Scripture is silent on this.

That's a mystery.
It seems that most Christian are still in the dark on the subject as well.
It seems that way to who? You? Anyone else? Just a blanket generalization sans foundation?

Regardless, though the Bible does not say what Adam did and did not understand, I'm of the opinion that God communicates so that He is understood by the one to whom He speaks.

Much love!














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marks

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The forbidden tree placed where it had to be confronted often.
Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

placed in the center (midst) of the orchard (garden) of Eden?
Interestingly, Adam and Eve had to be deceived to "eat thereof".


1 Timothy 2:13-14 KJV
13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.







Much love!
 

Aunty Jane

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The encounter with the Serpent is telling though.
If he really understood, he would have stepped in and done something to protect himself and his wife.
If you read the account carefully, more is revealed than you think…..
The serpent approached Eve whilst she was alone….the newby with little knowledge and experience….the devil’s favorite target.

Those who favor a YEC (Young Earth) perspective, lose a lot of that detail. If the creative days were not merely 24 hour “days” but as the word in Hebrew suggests, these “days” could have been creative epochs, perhaps hundreds of thousands of earth years in length, rather than just a 24 hour period, a wider picture emerges. Science corroborates this fact….the earth itself is provably, ancient.

Yahweh is a Creator….not a magician. His creation, down to the last detail, even in the microscopic world, is carefully and thoughtfully crafted….in absolute perfection.

Humans were not created until the 6th day and it appears as if Eve was created last.…at the end of that “day”. The question is, how long did Adam have to wait for the creation of his mate?

Gen 2:8-9; 15-17….NIV…
“Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Note the order of events….man is created outside of the garden and placed there. All the fruit trees planted by God were at his disposal….except one that God had claimed as his own property….under penalty of death.
It was Adam who told Even not to “touch” that tree…..

God gave Adam an assignment, and that was to name all the animals….at that time, he had no mate.

“The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman, ’for she was taken out of man.” (Gen 2:18-23)

Considering how many creatures God made to share life with us here on planet Earth, that is not something he would have accomplished in a mere 24 hour day. He had to observe each one in order to give it an appropriate name. It wasn’t until he finished that assignment that God stated his intention to give Adam a mate. Adam’s response was one of elation because now he too had “flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones” indicating that he had been alone for some time, observing how all other creatures had a mate, but he did not.

So getting a proper fix on the timeline gives us a wider view of the events and what God’s purpose was in placing mortal human beings, “made in his image”, on planet Earth in the first place.
That's a mystery.
It seems that most Christian are still in the dark on the subject as well.
Sadly “most Christians” are in the dark about a lot of things…..mostly by choice, because when the Bible suggests things that are out of their accepted belief system, they ignore them.…or explain them away as a “mystery”…..or heresy.

From the other thread….

Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
placed in the center
(midst) of the orchard (garden) of Eden?

Interestingly, Adam and Eve had to be deceived to "eat thereof".

Yes, but it was only Eve who was deceived….Adam was not.
1 Tim 2:13-14…
”For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (NIV)

Now, how does that put a different spin on what resulted when Adam partook of the fruit. If he wasn’t deceived as Eve was, why did he do that, knowing it meant death for the both of them? He could not save her as she had already committed the crime.

Adam had waited so long for this mate and was totally besotted by her….he knew that she had committed a sin incurring death, and he knew what death was by observing it in the animal kingdom during the time he was working on his assignment. He chose to join her, rather than to lose her, so we now have a wider view of these events.

All three rebels in the garden chose their actions selfishly, but for very different reasons.
The devil knew how Adam felt about his wife and that is why he targeted her first whilst she was alone…he deceived her and used her as bait so that he could separate them both from the Creator, and then he could have them to worship him….which was his intention all along. He selfishly wanted worship, but that was reserved for the Creator alone.

Adam could have made a different choice…the human race was not the devil’s possession until he too separated himself from God through disobedience.
It is Luke who tells us what happened back then….

Luke 4:5-7….
”The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.” (NIV)

Who gave world rulership over to the devil? And why would he do so?


It seems they had no intention of eating from the forbidden tree.
They had no reason to question God’s direction until the seed of doubt was planted in the right partner, setting off a chain reaction that resulted in God handing the now defective human race over to the “god” they chose. He has been ruling them ever since, but death means he is constantly recruiting new worshippers. He has minions to help him do that……especially those ones who masquerade as dead people.

What was going on here?

Whether you take the story as literal or figurative, it begs many questions.

The questions all have answers if you read the Scriptures carefully and understand what it meant to those it was written to….Jews did not have a “Christian” view……until they came to Jesus…..who didn’t come to start a new religion…he came to clean up the old one and to lead those who believed him, out of that now corrupted one.
 

PS95

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Seems that Eve mistakenly feared that the tree was poisonous. She feared even touching it and eating it or she could die.
So Satan fed her into her fears with a comforting lie by insinuating that God had not been truthful (accuser- sewing seeds of doubt )
..and that God was just trying to keep her from special knowledge-( feeds pride)
--the false accuser-causing doubt- the tempt- pride- the lie ---

Eve then looked at the fruit and it desired it and wanted to be wise-
As James wrote- 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy-.
He went for all - tried to steal her faith in God's word with planting doubt, cause her to die, and destroy her close fellowship with God.
Satan is very much alive today and active... beware of false prophets

Satan knew the woman was the weaker vessel, so he went for her while alone- vulnerable.
Adam was not directly deceived by Satan, but he was tempted and persuaded by his beautiful wife.

1 Tim 2:14 does not mean that when Adam partook of the fruit that he was under no deception, but that he was not deceived directly by the serpent. He was not first deceived, or first in the transgression.
The context is important as always... Always read the context!!! Paul is speaking about the headship of men - He is not accusing Adam of willful sinning.

Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger and dispute. 9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive apparel, 10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. 15But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation.



We all like to point the finger at Adam and Eve, but the scriptures are clear-
Ro 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned—
Would we have done better than them? I'm glad I wasn't there. You should be glad I wasn't too.

An interesting part of this story is that they had to be tossed from the garden, so that they would not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. It's not possible to say whether they had previously eaten anything from it yet or not. It's silent. Would they have needed to eat from it it daily or just once? That tree is a picture of Jesus. -In him was LIFE.- John 1

What sort of death did they die? They lost their close intimate fellowship with God- booted from Eden so spiritual death was first and then 930 years later Adam physically died. Since a day is as a thousand years to God - same day to Him.

Best News- Jesus came to restore our broken relationship with God by forgiving our sins, giving us a new birth by His Spirit resulting in life everlasting with Him!
 
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St. SteVen

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If you read the account carefully, more is revealed than you think…..
The serpent approached Eve whilst she was alone….the newby with little knowledge and experience….the devil’s favorite target.
The text doesn't support that she was alone. The Serpent did approach her though. (rather than Adam)
And yes, that was strategic. Eve had heard about the tree from Adam. (second hand)
It seems that he added the part about not touching.

Genesis 1:14-15 NIV
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye,
and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

--- PARODY ---

Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because
I know you like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!

Indeed.

[
 

St. SteVen

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What sort of death did they die? They lost their close intimate fellowship with God- booted from Eden so spiritual death was first and then 930 years later Adam physically died. Since a day is as a thousand years to God - same day to Him.

Best News- Jesus came to restore our broken relationship with God by forgiving our sins, giving us a new birth by His Spirit resulting in life everlasting with Him!
These are points we can agree on. Thanks.
(although your math on the 1,000 years is off)
I think the Fall brought spiritual death.
A&E were created as physically mortal beings, not physically immortal.
See Genesis 3:23.

Many on the forum struggle to understand the two kinds of life and death.
- Physical life and death
- Spiritual life and death

[
 
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St. SteVen

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Those who favor a YEC (Young Earth) perspective, lose a lot of that detail. If the creative days were not merely 24 hour “days” but as the word in Hebrew suggests, these “days” could have been creative epochs, perhaps hundreds of thousands of earth years in length, rather than just a 24 hour period, a wider picture emerges. Science corroborates this fact….the earth itself is provably, ancient.
Each day in the week of creation was measured by evening and morning. Which is odd, but...
It seems that God worked the night shift. - LOL

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Aunty Jane

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Each day in the week of creation was measured by evening and morning. Which is odd, but...
It seems that God worked the night shift. - LOL
Yes…another reason to doubt the 24 hour “day”….the Jewish day began at sundown and ended at sundown the following day….for the creative days there was “evening and morning”…..a night time….not a whole day.
 
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PS95

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These are points we can agree on. Thanks.
(although your math on the 1,000 years is off)
I think the Fall brought spiritual death.
A&E were created as physically mortal beings, not physically immortal.
See Genesis 3:23.

Many on the forum struggle to understand the two kinds of life and death.
- Physical life and death
- Spiritual life and death

[
I agree that Adam & Eve were not immortal. The first man from the earth- the second man is from heaven. Adam was a man. Jesus was a life giving Spirit. We bear the image the earthly man now, but we will bear the image of the heavenly.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written: “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING PERSON.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

I was offering the point that since the Tree of Life was there to eat from that the possibility for life never ending was there.
What would have happened if they had obeyed, remained there and eaten from the tree of life? Would they have been changed from natural into spiritual bodies?
We don't know - scriptures don't say either way what would have happened other than they would have lived forever. Whatever it would have been, it was not meant to be. I don't think that for a second that God doesn't know all things from beginning to end.- foreknowledge. It is us who are learning about Him, not Him learning about us. Of course He knew what we would do. We did not mess up His plan.
What's your take?
 
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