Uncovering the Devil's Strategy

[MatthewG]

yes satan the adversary is still running around and is angry and getting angrier as his time is almost up.

Event	Scripture Reference	Timing/Description
Devil bound	Revelation 20:1–3	At the start of the thousand years (millennium)
Devil released	Revelation 20:7–8	After the thousand years, for a short time
Devil finally destroyed	Revelation 20:10	After the final rebellion, cast into the lake of fire forever

I believe these things have happened. There is not use in telling it to me.

In my opinion it just a choice that people make to believe that these things have yet to happen.

I choose to believe they came to fruition, faithfully.

That is how it is with subjective christianity. I can accept those being true, and I accept faithfully they had come to be done.

Not many people do... I don't know why.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I believe these things have happened. There is not use in telling it to me.

In my opinion it just a choice that people make to believe that these things have yet to happen.

I choose to believe they came to fruition, faithfully.

That is how it is with subjective christianity. I can accept those being true, and I accept faithfully they had come to be done.

Not many people do... I don't know why.

Can you show me evidence of what you say that the events listed happened? you are not the first one who say this but I do not understand why. Do you not see evil still prevails in our society but things are getting worse?

 

[MatthewG]

Can you show me evidence of what you say that the events listed happened? you are not the first one who say this but I do not understand why. Do you not see evil still prevails in our society but things are getting worse?

I believe society is getting better. Evil and Good reside with in all of us. So there is no excuse to say oh Devil!

I believe faithfully, what evidence do you want? Other than what you are given?

 

[Hepzibah]

I agree but the point is that this indicates he was sanctified in the inner man, the new man, which delighted in the law of God, while still doing battle with the old man of the flesh. Rom 7:25 says with the mind he was serving God, but the flesh was still serving the law of sin. So I was just saying I think the Gnostics were right on that particular point (even though they err in the main).


Yes I agree....I usually mean the whole package of the fallen old man flesh nature when I say flesh, which includes our bodies. The fallen nature resides in our fallen bodies of flesh...this is why our bodies need to "put on immortality" in the end...to become spiritual. (Soul and body exist as a unit...this is why Jesus said to fear Him who can destroy body and soul). The redemption of our soul means the redemption of our bodies in the end. But while we are alive in the body we need to put the old man of the flesh, including our fleshly bodies, under our feet. To walk above it all, so to speak. Render it inert, reckon it dead. I think that is what walking in the spirit means. We can still go in and out of the spirit until/unless that flesh nature (including the body) is finally and permanently put under our/Christ's feet being conquered, overcome, and ruled over by Christ in us. I think that is also the imagery in Rev. of the woman, bride of Christ/heavenly Zion, with the moon under her feet....she has overcome, is victorious, over her old nature and flesh . I hope I'm making sense and expressing it properly, my brain is not terribly awake this morning.

Apologies again.

This is a suitable day for my reply - the Pentecostal feast day according to the Old Calendar (Julian) used by the Roman Empire and replaced apart from the Orthodoxy Church, (for liturgical purposes). The following is from the daily readings for today.

We are told in Numbers 11:16-17,24-29, that the Lord, took of the Spirit that was on Him, and put Him onto the 70 elders of Israel, and in Joel 2:23-39 that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten whereby they would know that God was with them.

Referring to the same event we read in Ezekiel 36:24-27,

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So this is the day, Pentecost, that the pure heart and the new spirit are given, the day that the church began.

I have been a bit unsure of what exactly happened on the day that Jesus breathed on the disciples but from my readings today, I see that the day was when the disciples who were going to lead the church and preach the full gospel to the thousands who have believed and followed Jesus during His time on the earth, who were there including Jews from other nations, were baptized in the Spirit and were of one accord. They had been many divisions previously. Although many hearing Peter preach were backslidden (fell away from the hard teachings) they were still believers in Christ when the Holy Spirit fell to begin the church.

So the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who came as a mighty wind on that day (connected to Jesus breathed) to the whole church gathered, resulted in the pure heart and the new man. Peter describes what occurs in 1 Peter 3:21:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So he is clearly not speaking of water baptism though in the early years both usually occurred together when men were laid hands on when coming forth from the waters.

We have up till now, that Spirit baptism saves us and we are given a pure heart so that we can obey and a renewed spirit at our individual Pentecost. St Gregory of Nazianzus says we are deified (made like God) by baptism.

Paul only says that it was the inner man (his spirit) which delighted in the word of God while he was seeking to be entirely sanctified and walking in the flesh in Romans chapter 7. Indeed when we have had an encounter with the living God we do delight in His law, but that is it, we do not find the ability to be as obedient as we know we should be unless we have fallen away.

There is nowhere the idea that a man who had been baptized in the Holy Spirit would struggle with sin. It has been read into this verse and contradicts many other places and especially 1 John where we are told that the man who sins is of the devil.

In the readings for today there is a quote from C. I. Schofield which is interesting as he says:

"Every believer is born of the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit whose presence makes the believers body the temple of the Holy Spirit and baptized in the Spirit thus sealing him for God. (Notes on Malachi 2:15)"

Well I know that I do not believe this and understand you don't either. A quick trip into any local church confirms it when you look at the 70 and 80 year olds who have been serving for 50 years or more and have no better control over their appetites, unhealthy diets, or the inner sins that have plagued them for all of that time. They are still in Romans 7.

I believe that this teaching from Schofield has poisoned the western church and is also in the other churches including Orthodoxy to this day even for those who have never heard of him Their preachers have been taught it and it is not scriptural.

And neither is Calvinism that says we are baptised in the Holy Spirit when we first come to Christ nor the Pentecostal churches that say we receive 'power' when the Spirit falls as a second blessing. Holiness teaching has gone out of the door and nothing but error and mixed up theologies remain.

Where are all the holy men from the early years? Wrong teaching led them away.

 

[Episkopos]

Apologies again.

This is a suitable day for my reply - the Pentecostal feast day according to the Old Calendar (Julian) used by the Roman Empire and replaced apart from the Orthodoxy Church, (for liturgical purposes). The following is from the daily readings for today.

We are told in Numbers 11:16-17,24-29, that the Lord, took of the Spirit that was on Him, and put Him onto the 70 elders of Israel, and in Joel 2:23-39 that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten whereby they would know that God was with them.

Referring to the same event we read in Ezekiel 36:24-27,

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So this is the day, Pentecost, that the pure heart and the new spirit are given, the day that the church began.

I have been a bit unsure of what exactly happened on the day that Jesus breathed on the disciples but from my readings today, I see that the day was when the disciples who were going to lead the church and preach the full gospel to the thousands who have believed and followed Jesus during His time on the earth, who were there including Jews from other nations, were baptized in the Spirit and were of one accord. They had been many divisions previously. Although many hearing Peter preach were backslidden (fell away from the hard teachings) they were still believers in Christ when the Holy Spirit fell to begin the church.

So the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who came as a mighty wind on that day (connected to Jesus breathed) to the whole church gathered, resulted in the pure heart and the new man. Peter describes what occurs in 1 Peter 3:21:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So he is clearly not speaking of water baptism though in the early years both usually occurred together when men were laid hands on when coming forth from the waters.

We have up till now, that Spirit baptism saves us and we are given a pure heart so that we can obey and a renewed spirit at our individual Pentecost. St Gregory of Nazianzus says we are deified (made like God) by baptism.

Paul only says that it was the inner man (his spirit) which delighted in the word of God while he was seeking to be entirely sanctified and walking in the flesh in Romans chapter 7. Indeed when we have had an encounter with the living God we do delight in His law, but that is it, we do not find the ability to be as obedient as we know we should be unless we have fallen away.

There is nowhere the idea that a man who had been baptized in the Holy Spirit would struggle with sin. It has been read into this verse and contradicts many other places and especially 1 John where we are told that the man who sins is of the devil.

In the readings for today there is a quote from C. I. Schofield which is interesting as he says:

"Every believer is born of the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit whose presence makes the believers body the temple of the Holy Spirit and baptized in the Spirit thus sealing him for God. (Notes on Malachi 2:15)"

Well I know that I do not believe this and understand you don't either. A quick trip into any local church confirms it when you look at the 70 and 80 year olds who have been serving for 50 years or more and have no better control over their appetites, unhealthy diets, or the inner sins that have plagued them for all of that time. They are still in Romans 7.

I believe that this teaching from Schofield has poisoned the western church and is also in the other churches including Orthodoxy to this day even for those who have never heard of him Their preachers have been taught it and it is not scriptural.

And neither is Calvinism that says we are baptised in the Holy Spirit when we first come to Christ nor the Pentecostal churches that say we receive 'power' when the Spirit falls as a second blessing. Holiness teaching has gone out of the door and nothing but error and mixed up theologies remain.

Where are all the holy men from the early years? Wrong teaching led them away.

Amen. The gospel has been reduced to a low standard that doesn't require deep repentance and discipleship. Those who seek for true discipleship in the system churches will never find it. People can't help you if they are as poor as you are. And those who look to make disciples in the system will be very disappointed.

Holiness is a lonely pursuit. As Paul said, one must look heavenward to the great cloud of witnesses that spur us on to greater glory.

What I see is the mixing of standards...with the lowest always winning out. Jesus said to gather in guests both good and bad. Very low standard indeed. What the devil has done is indoctrinate these low standard guests into thinking they are the Bride...having all they need to be chosen of God without the cost of discipleship....thus ruining them even as guests. We are in the time of the Laodicean church. Today a Christian is not seen as humble and God-fearing by the world. It's about indoctrination now. There is no conviction of sin coming from the church anymore. No holiness, no eternal life, no eternal reality...just religious platitudes that deceive and bring a spirit of deep sleep (rouach tardemah).

 

[Lizbeth]

Apologies again.

This is a suitable day for my reply - the Pentecostal feast day according to the Old Calendar (Julian) used by the Roman Empire and replaced apart from the Orthodoxy Church, (for liturgical purposes). The following is from the daily readings for today.

We are told in Numbers 11:16-17,24-29, that the Lord, took of the Spirit that was on Him, and put Him onto the 70 elders of Israel, and in Joel 2:23-39 that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten whereby they would know that God was with them.

Referring to the same event we read in Ezekiel 36:24-27,

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So this is the day, Pentecost, that the pure heart and the new spirit are given, the day that the church began.

I have been a bit unsure of what exactly happened on the day that Jesus breathed on the disciples but from my readings today, I see that the day was when the disciples who were going to lead the church and preach the full gospel to the thousands who have believed and followed Jesus during His time on the earth, who were there including Jews from other nations, were baptized in the Spirit and were of one accord. They had been many divisions previously. Although many hearing Peter preach were backslidden (fell away from the hard teachings) they were still believers in Christ when the Holy Spirit fell to begin the church.

So the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who came as a mighty wind on that day (connected to Jesus breathed) to the whole church gathered, resulted in the pure heart and the new man. Peter describes what occurs in 1 Peter 3:21:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So he is clearly not speaking of water baptism though in the early years both usually occurred together when men were laid hands on when coming forth from the waters.

We have up till now, that Spirit baptism saves us and we are given a pure heart so that we can obey and a renewed spirit at our individual Pentecost. St Gregory of Nazianzus says we are deified (made like God) by baptism.

Paul only says that it was the inner man (his spirit) which delighted in the word of God while he was seeking to be entirely sanctified and walking in the flesh in Romans chapter 7. Indeed when we have had an encounter with the living God we do delight in His law, but that is it, we do not find the ability to be as obedient as we know we should be unless we have fallen away.

There is nowhere the idea that a man who had been baptized in the Holy Spirit would struggle with sin. It has been read into this verse and contradicts many other places and especially 1 John where we are told that the man who sins is of the devil.

In the readings for today there is a quote from C. I. Schofield which is interesting as he says:

"Every believer is born of the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit whose presence makes the believers body the temple of the Holy Spirit and baptized in the Spirit thus sealing him for God. (Notes on Malachi 2:15)"

Well I know that I do not believe this and understand you don't either. A quick trip into any local church confirms it when you look at the 70 and 80 year olds who have been serving for 50 years or more and have no better control over their appetites, unhealthy diets, or the inner sins that have plagued them for all of that time. They are still in Romans 7.

I believe that this teaching from Schofield has poisoned the western church and is also in the other churches including Orthodoxy to this day even for those who have never heard of him Their preachers have been taught it and it is not scriptural.

And neither is Calvinism that says we are baptised in the Holy Spirit when we first come to Christ nor the Pentecostal churches that say we receive 'power' when the Spirit falls as a second blessing. Holiness teaching has gone out of the door and nothing but error and mixed up theologies remain.

Where are all the holy men from the early years? Wrong teaching led them away.

I'm the one who needs to apologize for taking so long to respond to your questions. A relative passed away and I've been busy and the subject we were talking about is of a kind that needs me to catch up with myself to be able to assemble and organize my thoughts. It has been percolating in the background, but slowly. I hope to get to it soon, Lord willing.

Good question. Where are all the holy men? The modern church is very far from resembling the early church when you compare the two. My impression of the modern church is that of so much worldliness in general.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm the one who needs to apologize for taking so long to respond to your questions. A relative passed away and I've been busy and the subject we were talking about is of a kind that needs me to catch up with myself to be able to assemble and organize my thoughts. It has been percolating in the background, but slowly. I hope to get to it soon, Lord willing.

Good question. Where are all the holy men? The modern church is very far from resembling the early church when you compare the two. My impression of the modern church is that of so much worldliness in general.

If you can see that much, then why do you defend the doctrines of men that have brought worldliness into the church....now become a refuge for the unbroken outer man sin nature? And why are you against the higher walk and the calling into the kingdom reality of the Spirit?

Honesty works if it is applied without agenda.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, before I get into a reply, would you say exactly what the inner man - the new man is? Do you agree that man is spirit soul and body?

Well, I’ll make an attempt to explain my understanding on this sister, and see what you think, whether you see anything that contradicts other scriptures or not. I’ve heard it said that man IS a spirit, which HAS a body and a soul, and I used to accept that, but in more recent times am not sure that is right. What I seem to see in scripture is more along the lines that man IS a soul that has a spirit and a body.



Gen 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (spirit) and man became a living soul.



Zec 12:1

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.



Jas 2:26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Ecc 12:6-7

Remember him—before the silver cord is severed, and the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the wheel broken at the well,

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.



An inert/dead body needs a spirit to be alive, to BE a living soul. And at death the spirit leaves the body and returns to God, as it were….the spirit having left the body is what makes the body dead. Body and spirit together equals a living soul. This is reflected where Jesus said to fear God who can destroy body and soul in hades, because the body and soul are one…without a body for one’s spirit to dwell in you don’t really have a soul, the soul is dead and there is just a disembodied spirit. Man can only kill the body, not the soul because for believers the body can be resurrected (corruption put on incorruption) and the spirit return to the glorified body, thus SAVING the soul. (and we know God can also make the spirit return to an unglorified body as of course there are testimonies of scripture and in life.) But this is why resurrection and redemption of the body is necessary for the saving of the soul. The soul is the whole person, his/her consciousness, will, uniqueness, personality, heart attitudes etc……body and spirit together.



The body includes the natural mind/brain, emotions (body chemistry) and will (fleshly desires and instincts fed by the old man/fallen spirit) - scripture says who knows the mind of a man except his spirit within him.



I believe where scripture refers to the heart it is usually referring to the spirit. And the inner man scripture speaks of which is to be strengthened with might (Eph 3) I believe is talking about the renewed heart/spirit. Receiving a new heart under the new covenant I believe speaks to a renewing and resurrection of our spirit that had become dead to God….cut off from His life because of sin and because our old man/spirit was in Adam so Adam’s death reigned in it. When we come to faith our spirit is renewed and reconnected and reconciled to God, so we can now perceive Him for real and be in a joint relationship with Him.



We need to have our renewed spirit reigning over our soul and body, not the old one. They both exist at the same time in the body….like the two trees in the Garden exist there at the same time. But one bears fruit unto death, while the other bears fruit unto life. So we need to learn to eat only of the Tree of Life, no longer the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Crossing the Jordan, as it were, cuts off the fallen fleshly flow of death that comes from our Adamic old man fleshly nature/spirit…...the river was at flood stage when the Israelites were commanded to cross it, but God held it back going all the way back upriver to a town called Adam!



The carnal mind/soul is fed by the old man’s Adamic fallen fleshly spirit, whereas the mind of Christ is our mind/soul fed by Christ, being in His vine/tree. One leads to death…..the way that seemeth right to the carnal mind of man leads to death. Whereas the Tree of Life, abiding and being fed by it, having His spiritual mind (which is not fleshly) leads to life, and IS life.



And just to add a tidbit….when after His resurrection, Jesus breathed on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit, I believe it renewed and made alive their heart/spirit that had hitherto been dead in Adam and sin, and it was the same thing that happens we come to faith in Christ. It mirrored when God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life (spirit), but which later had fallen/died. So it needed renewing as it were, which is what Jesus did/does.

 

[Behold]

Amen. The gospel has been reduced to a low standard that doesn't require deep repentance and discipleship.

The Discipleship, begins once the person is born again......as Salvaiton has to happen, before the Dicipleship is started.

Any 5 yr old Sunday School Child , understand this...and you dont.

In Fact, you falsely stated that "The Gospel" is about discipleship, so, again you have produced a FALSE GOSPEL.....as The Gospel, is that Jesus died ont the Cross, so that your sins can be forgiven, so that God can give you the new birth in Christ... so that you become a Son-Daughter of God, a "Christian"... @Episkopos

Your false "gospel" of "discipleship, is : Galatians 1:8..........same as always.

 

[Lizbeth]

I believe the soul is the heart and mind of man and the spirit, the part that communicates with the spirit world including the Holy Spirit. But Lizbeth, would you say when baptism of the Spirit occurs? Is this the second blessing?

Subject to confirmation or correction, I tentatively see the Red Sea crossing, when we come to faith in Christ, as showing water baptism and spirit baptism together. There is a first spirit baptism that belongs to the whole package of when we come to faith at the first....we receive gifts of the Spirit and the earnest of the Spirit. But the second blessing I tentatively see that as having a second baptism of the Spirit associated with it.....a baptism of fire when God consumes the sacrifice laid on the altar....when we cross the Jordan. I've heard the second blessing described and testified of as a baptism of fire that burns up, as it were, the remaining iniquities a person has. It sounds to me like the old fleshly nature as a whole is vanquished/conquered at that point, and put under our/Christ's feet. Crossing two bodies of water seems to signify two baptisms.

 

[Lizbeth]

If you can see that much, then why do you defend the doctrines of men that have brought worldliness into the church....now become a refuge for the unbroken outer man sin nature? And why are you against the higher walk and the calling into the kingdom reality of the Spirit?

Honesty works if it is applied without agenda.

I don't defend false doctrines, but I search the scriptures for myself without any agenda, and just let them speak to me and teach me in spirit and by the Spirit. I don't try to tell the scriptures what I think they should be saying.

As I've said so many times I'm not against those things, but insist that we need the foundation in order to build and complete the building. Christ in us IS the foundation, the hope of glory......our perfect renewed inner man is created after His image - that means it must be perfect and righteous and holy - and that is why it delights in His laws. Christ IS both the Author and Finisher of our faith, no? Or is He only the Finisher? I believe the danger for those who don't grow and seek righteousness, to overcome the old man, is that they can be in danger of losing that foundation. If the Spirit of God left Israel's temple it is certainly possible for Him to leave ours. We are to take warning from them.

And my only agenda is the truth. What's yours?

 

[Hepzibah]

And just to add a tidbit….when after His resurrection, Jesus breathed on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit, I believe it renewed and made alive their heart/spirit that had hitherto been dead in Adam and sin, and it was the same thing that happens we come to faith in Christ. It mirrored when God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life (spirit), but which later had fallen/died. So it needed renewing as it were, which is what Jesus did/does.

Sister, the disciples had met with Jesus previously who said 'Follow Me' and they did. They accepted as former Jews that He was who He said He was, but struggled with deep understanding and with sins. They were known as disciples during this time.

When Jesus breathed on them, it seems clear to me that they were at that point Spirit baptised and would need to be for the day the church started at Pentecost as the many people who were saved by baptism needed guiding which the now apostles were able to do after the 10 days they waited in the upper room.

Question, how could men who were not yet in the kingdom remain so after the transfiguration?

 

[Hepzibah]

Subject to confirmation or correction, I tentatively see the Red Sea crossing, when we come to faith in Christ, as showing water baptism and spirit baptism together. There is a first spirit baptism that belongs to the whole package of when we come to faith at the first....we receive gifts of the Spirit and the earnest of the Spirit. But the second blessing I tentatively see that as having a second baptism of the Spirit associated with it.....a baptism of fire when God consumes the sacrifice laid on the altar....when we cross the Jordan. I've heard the second blessing described and testified of as a baptism of fire that burns up, as it were, the remaining iniquities a person has. It sounds to me like the old fleshly nature as a whole is vanquished/conquered at that point, and put under our/Christ's feet. Crossing two bodies of water seems to signify two baptisms.

Sis what do you do with this verse:

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:5?

Yes Spirit baptism is one of fire to burn up the offering I agree.

The children of Israel did not go through the water, it was held back.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is a suitable day for my reply - the Pentecostal feast day according to the Old Calendar (Julian) used by the Roman Empire and replaced apart from the Orthodoxy Church, (for liturgical purposes). The following is from the daily readings for today.

We are told in Numbers 11:16-17,24-29, that the Lord, took of the Spirit that was on Him, and put Him onto the 70 elders of Israel, and in Joel 2:23-39 that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten whereby they would know that God was with them.

Referring to the same event we read in Ezekiel 36:24-27,

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So this is the day, Pentecost, that the pure heart and the new spirit are given, the day that the church began.

I'm not sure we need to nail down when the church began, in the sense that we don't need to worry about it or make it into a doctrine. Strictly speaking we might say it began with the first advent of Christ. He was the Head of it and began bringing in "members" as soon as He began preaching. And maybe we might even consider that His mother was the first member since she was seen having faith in Him at the wedding of Cana before Jesus had begun His ministry as such.

Jesus, before His crucifixion, told his disciples that they were clean through the word He had spoken to them (John 15:3) and at the last supper He told them that they were every whit clean having had the bath, but only needed to have their feet cleaned from that point. This was before His crucifixion/resurrection and before the Spirit was poured out in the manner we see at Pentecost. I believe that outpouring was for power ("ye shall be indued with power"), not for cleansing per se...? Power for preaching, evangelizing, operating in the gifts of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. We typically need to have already been cleansed and blood washed through receiving Christ before being filled with the Spirit. Or on more rare occasions it might all happen at the same time, as we've heard testimonies.

Will stop here for now, but just want to point out where Paul said "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" ( I assume he was talking to genuine believers, not just nominal mental belief folks or he would have preached the gospel to them rather than the Holy Spirit). There is no indication that they needed to be as yet "perfected" or fully consecrated (as I think of it) for that infilling...? It just seems to belong to the package of receiving Christ and being born again.......it seems that any new believer that desired it could receive that first baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sis what do you do with this verse:

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:5?

Yes Spirit baptism is one of fire to burn up the offering I agree.

The children of Israel did not go through the water, it was held back.

Yes I thought of that verse too. There is one baptism in coming to Christ. Yet we know there is more than one baptism in another sense. There is water baptism, as well as there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit........and John said Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire. And from experience and observation it seems that people can be filled with the Holy Spirit more than once in their life (not speaking of the second blessing). But all these baptisms are of the one Holy Spirit, so can be said to be one baptism in that sense, maybe.

You know, it occurs to me that since some people can be born again and be filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time, it's possible that the disciples received the first and second blessing both at the same time at Pentecost....? Because of their particular calling as the first apostles and the grace/power needed to fulfill it. The bible says "great" grace was upon the early church....perhaps for a purpose, like a rocket boost to get them started. Just a thought there.

 

[Lizbeth]

I believe society is getting better.

I'm guessing you don't keep up with the news and current events much...? God said transgression would come to the full.......and the epistles say men would wax worse, not better.

 

[Hepzibah]

There is water baptism, as well as there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.....

1 Peter 3:21:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

One baptism is salvific, the other is not, it is a symbol. Therefore there is one baptism.

 

[Hepzibah]

Jesus, before His crucifixion, told his disciples that they were clean through the word He had spoken to them (John 15:3) and at the last supper He told them that they were every whit clean having had the bath, but only needed to have their feet cleaned from that point. This was before His crucifixion/resurrection and before the Spirit was poured out in the manner we see at Pentecost.

Yes there is a sort of cleansing when coming to Christ due to meeting with the Holy One. Just being near Him is cleansing but that is not the same as being made holy. It is more a case of being made aware of sin.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amen. The gospel has been reduced to a low standard that doesn't require deep repentance and discipleship. Those who seek for true discipleship in the system churches will never find it. People can't help you if they are as poor as you are. And those who look to make disciples in the system will be very disappointed.

Holiness is a lonely pursuit. As Paul said, one must look heavenward to the great cloud of witnesses that spur us on to greater glory.

What I see is the mixing of standards...with the lowest always winning out. Jesus said to gather in guests both good and bad. Very low standard indeed. What the devil has done is indoctrinate these low standard guests into thinking they are the Bride...having all they need to be chosen of God without the cost of discipleship....thus ruining them even as guests. We are in the time of the Laodicean church. Today a Christian is not seen as humble and God-fearing by the world. It's about indoctrination now. There is no conviction of sin coming from the church anymore. No holiness, no eternal life, no eternal reality...just religious platitudes that deceive and bring a spirit of deep sleep (rouach tardemah).

How does that fit the context of that parable? It was a prophetic warning. Those who were invited wouldn't come...that's a veiled reference to those who were His own, the Jews/Israel, and supposedly they were "good" because they had the Law. So then His servants were going to be instructed to throw the net out further so to speak, beyond the nation of Jews and go into the highways and byways and bring in whoever would come, Gentiles who had not yet been invited, both good and bad (whether living honestly and decently, or sinning unrestrainedly). The idea of wedding guests and a wedding feast is just another allegory/parable for the kingdom of heaven and those who would enter it by faith in Jesus as opposed to those who would not come because they were choosing this world (seek the Lord while He may be found.)

 

[MatthewG]

I'm guessing you don't keep up with the news and current events much...? God said transgression would come to the full.......and the epistles say men would wax worse, not better.

It really just comes from what you may desire... All of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


There are many areas in States and stuff that can be worked on to be improved and I believe a lot of things have already improved...

I believe we live in the greatest country in the World. But we wait to go on to the New one, Heavenly Jeruslaem to be with God.

Living through the ups and downs and falling apart of relationships, or falling part of our own bodies. Etc.

I don't wait in anticipation for things falling apart but really for them to get better over time.