HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[WPM]

Duplicity refers to dishonest behavior, particularly acting in bad faith and pretending to have one set of intentions while acting under the influence of another. It implies a hidden agenda or double-dealing, with a contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. Essentially, it means being deceptive or disingenuous.

DUPLICITY Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
May 22, 2025 — : contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. ... especially : the belying of one's true intentions by dec...
Merriam-Webster

Duplicity - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms - Vocabulary.com
Definitions of duplicity. noun. acting in bad faith; deception by pretending to entertain one set of intentions while acting under...
Vocabulary.com
Word of the Day: Duplicity - Merriam-Webster
Aug 23, 2023 — Duplicity is a formal word that refers to dishonest behavior meant to trick or deceive someone. //Essentially, it means being deceptive or disingenuous.

Merriam-Webster

I think you picked the perfect word to describe what he is doing to a T. He could prove us all wrong by showing how his position is still true in light of what I argued. But he can't do that unless he takes on my post first and then proves that if a Gentile gets graffed into the good olive, that since this equals saved, but if this same Gentile were to get cutoff from the good olive tree, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with, thus NOSAS is not Biblical, only OSAS is Biblical. Only an obvious plain as day deceiver could or would possibly argue that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree means saved. But if this same Gentile is ever cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with. That this then means only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

More name-calling and more avoidance. You have to! That is what you do when you have nothing.

 

[WPM]

Assuming one of us is right, that means the one that is right, no counter arguments can trump it. Assuming you think you are the one correct here, prove to the rest of us that the post I submitted does not trump what you submitted.

LOL. Practice what you preach! Address what you initially responded to, avoided and diverted from.

 

[Zao is life]

Checkmate!

This is why Amil is growing on these forums. Premil has no answer to the facts! Keep it up! You are doing more to promote Amil than I can do.

LOL. Amil is growing on these forums because most Premils have realized that debating with an Amil is as bad as Paul (Premil) trying to get the Pharisees (Amil) to understand that a fisherman (Peter) understood what they misunderstood and could correctly interpret the scriptures that they misinterpreted - and hence, could and did and was correcting them.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. Practice what you preach! Address what you initially responded, avoided and diverted from.

I think it's time you learned to address the refutations others bring against all your many assertions based on your own misinterpretations of the scriptures you post, and to practice what you preach :) because you never do address any of said refutations of your erroneous interpretations, i.e misinterpretations. But you expect others to just continue reading your long posts because "that's fair".

 

[WPM]

LOL. Amil is growing on these forums because most Premils have realized that debating with an Amil is as bad as Paul (Premil) trying to get the Pharisees (Amil) to understand that a fisherman (Peter) understood what they misunderstood and could correctly interpret the scriptures that they misinterpreted - and hence, could and did and was correcting them.

You talk some nonsense. You're truly on the ropes. You have no answer to the truth. That is why you avoid it. If you had a rebuttal you would give it.

 

[WPM]

I think it's time you learned to address the refutations others bring against all your many assertions based on your own misinterpretations of the scriptures you post, and to practice what you preach :) because you never do address any of said refutations of your erroneous interpretations, i.e misinterpretations. But you expect others to just continue reading your long posts because "that's fair".

Both of you avoided my posts. You have to. They expose your position.

 

[Zao is life]

Only an obvious plain as day deceiver could or would possibly argue that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree means saved. But if this same Gentile is ever cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with. That this then means only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

Is your position that if someone is grafted into the olive tree but is cut off after being grafted in, that he wasn't saved to begin with?

If so, I disagree. Jesus did not say that the seed sown on stony ground did not believe in Him. He said His Word was immediately received with joy but the seed did not take deep enough root in the person's soul.

How deep an individual ensures the Word of God takes root in his soul is a matter of individual choice (abiding in the Vine), not a matter of whether or not the death and resurrection of Christ is powerful enough to save anyone and everyone who believes in Him.

 

[Zao is life]

You talk some nonsense. You're truly on the ropes. You have no answer to the truth. That is why you avoid it. If you had a rebuttal you would give it.

Why do you always flood threads with posts containing the above type of gibberish and your lists of false statements, implications, self-back-patting and ..

It's not the way grown ups discuss the Bible, you know?

 

[Davidpt]

Is your position that if someone is grafted into the olive tree but is cut off after being grafted in, that he wasn't saved to begin with?

No, that is not my position. I am arguing that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals saved. Therefore. just like Jews that were cutoff from the good olive tree equals no salvation for them, the same is true for when and if it happens to a Gentile. The Jews have an apparent advantage though, but not really when you think about it. They can be graffed back in, only if they choose to believe that Christ is who He said He is.

As to Gentiles it's a bit different. In order to be graffed into the good olive tree to begin with, they have to be believers first. But if they get cutoff after having already believed, they can't get graffed in again since they were already believers to begin with. IOW, they can't get graffed into the good olive tree twice for the same reasons. The Jews that were cutoff were cutoff because of disbelief. They were never believers to begin with. The same can't be said about Gentiles that get cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, that they were never believers to begin with. Ummm...Explain how they initially got graffed in by bypassing having to be believers first, is what those OSAS proponents need to explain then.

The only way to be part of the good olive tree at this point is through belief in Christ. A Gentile already has belief in Christ if he or she is graffed into the good olive tree. But if that same Gentile gets cutoff, does that then equal this Gentile no longer believes Christ is who He says is is? Of course not. How do they get graffed back into the good olive tree if they are cutoff? They can't. It's impossible since the only way to be graffed into the good olive tree is through belief, something they already did initially. Therefore, for a Gentile to be cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in does not equal they were never saved to begin with. Nor does it equal OSAS in their case. It equals NOSAS in their case, where deceivers who place some of their doctrines above the truth, such as @WPM, would have us believe that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

I do not want to be right about any of this, yet how can I not be, or how can you not be since you and I are pretty much on the same page in regards to some of this since your position also is that NOSAS is Biblical?

Where we are not entirely on the same page, at least not yet anyway, is how you are applying some of this to Revelation 20:7-9.

 

[Zao is life]

No, that is not my position. I am arguing that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals saved. Therefore. just like Jews that were cutoff from the good olive tree equals no salvation for them, the same is true for when and if it happens to a Gentile. The Jews have an apparent advantage though, but not really when you think about it. They can be graffed back in, only if they choose to believe that Christ is who He said He is.

As to Gentiles it's a bit different. In order to be graffed into the good olive tree to begin with, they have to be believers first. But if they get cutoff after having already believed, they can't get graffed in again since they were already believers to begin with. IOW, they can't get graffed into the good olive tree twice for the same reasons. The Jews that were cutoff were cutoff because of disbelief. They were never believers to begin with. The same can't be said about Gentiles that get cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, that they were never believers to begin with. Ummm...Explain how they initially got graffed in by bypassing having to be believers first, is what those OSAS proponents need to explain then.

The only way to be part of the good olive tree at this point is through belief in Christ. A Gentile already has belief in Christ if he or she is graffed into the good olive tree. But if that same Gentile gets cutoff, does that then equal this Gentile no longer believes Christ is who He says is is? Of course not. How do they get graffed back into the good olive tree if they are cutoff? They can't. It's impossible since the only way to be graffed into the good olive tree is through belief, something they already did initially. Therefore, for a Gentile to be cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in does not equal they were never saved to begin with. Nor does it equal OSAS in their case. It equals NOSAS in their case, where deceivers who place some of their doctrines above the truth, such as @WPM, would have us believe that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

I do not want to be right about any of this, yet how can I not be, or how can you not be since you and I are pretty much on the same page in regards to some of this since your position also is that NOSAS is Biblical?

Where we are not entirely on the same page, at least not yet anyway, is how you are applying some of this to Revelation 20:7-9.

So this is what I see, which I see both because of what Adam did, AND because of knowing how - given the 'right' motive - people who know the truth can choose to believe a lie despite knowing the truth (and act according to their choice).

Let's say it's post-return of Christ and post-the resurrection. I do not believe in the notion of "OSAS because now I'm IMMORTAL". This is why:

Adam was also immortal, and when he chose to believe the lie despite knowing the truth, his body that had until then been immortal began to decay - he lost his immortality.

(Bear in mind that the lie began with the words, "You will NOT surely die").

It was easy for someone who was still immortal (living in a body that did not decay at the time), to believe the lie. Adam only sinned once he believed the lie, not before - and he sinned BECAUSE he believed the lie. Had he NOT believed the lie, he would not have felt 'comfotable' with going ahead with eating the fruit forbidden him, because if he had NOT believed the lie, he would have known that despite his immortality, he would die if he ate of the forbidden fruit.

I don't believe it will ever be any different. Why?

- because the immortality of the created human being (to be alive [zao] forever) will still be dependent on the Spirit of Christ in him giving him eternal life [zoe].

The Spirit is the river of life [zoe] - the source of eternal life - the tree of life, which is the Word of God.

In other words, the source of life [zoe] (the Spirit) will still be the supply of eternal life [zoe] to the person who is experiencing being alive [zao] forever in a created body that does not decay and therefore will not die - the immortal body does not decay and die because it has the eternal life-supply of the Spirit abiding in it (i.e in the soul of the created person abiding in the body).

Only God possesses eternal life in Himself. Only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself and this is why scripture tells us He alone possesses immortality (in Himself).

Our bodies decay and die now even though we have the Spirit of Christ in us giving us eternal life IN Christ, because we have not yet experienced the resurrection of our bodies (which is already ours in Christ but is the hope that it still not seen / experienced, though we know it will be).

I do not have immortality for a created human being (us) conflated with the eternal life given by God IN Christ which is the life-supply needed for a created human being to experience being alive forever in a body that does not decay. Adam's body began to decay because he sinned and lost his access to the tree of life / river of life that was the life-supply of his immortality.

The third-last chapter of the Bible is the conclusion of what began then, which we read about in the third chapter of the Bible; and it began when Satan was permitted to declare to Adam: "You will NOT surely die."

Adam chose to believe the lie though he knew the truth, and so it was rebellion against God on the part of a human being who until then, was immortal.

It also ended the sabbath-rest of God.

A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FIRST TIME AND THE LAST TIME

The first time mankind rebelled against God, God caused mercy to be introduced in the announcement of a Savior who would undo all that was done - through his own sacrifice for the sin, His death and resurrection, and the power of His resurrection - deliverance FOR US not only from sin, but also from the first death that came upon all mankind,

and that fist death is the death of the body. Amil doctrine has the death of the body conflated with 'spiritual death' which it sees as OUR loss of the eternal life-supply of the Spirit - but spiritual death is not something that happened to anyone born after Adam's death. What Amil calls 'our' spiritual 'death' is actually just the absence of eternal life.

But the second time (and last time) that Satan will be permitted to deceive immortals, the sin committed by those who rebel will result in a different death - a permnant death called "the lake of fire" and "the second death" - which is also the destruction of death.

I believe immortals - not those who overcame when faced with martyrdom, but many immortals - out of the total population of humans who will be resurrected (1 Thess 4:16 together with those seen in verse 17) will be deceived by Satan into believing that because they are immortal, they will not surely die - just like happened to Adam - but there will be the remnant in "the camp of the saints". The rest will find themselves being destroyed soul and body - immortal body and all - by the fire coming down from God out of heaven - because they chose to believe the lie even though they knew the truth. The second death will receive its second installment at that point - the beast and false prophet had already been thrown alive into the lake of fire.

God is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna, He created us.

 

[WPM]

Why do you always flood threads with posts containing the above type of gibberish and your lists of false statements, implications, self-back-patting and ..

It's not the way grown ups discuss the Bible, you know?

More projection. More avoidance. More insults. That is all we get in response to the truth.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Probably most Christians know that your interpretation of the verses you post above is just false. And you base the rest of your post upon a false assumption about the the saints being raptured before the tribulation

So there's not much anyone can to to help you to see your fallacy. You have to see it yourself.

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do, you just dodged all the points about how those people in Rev. 4:4 has all the gifts PROMISED to those in Rev; 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21, and whereas when you cited other scriptures to point out what this fact meant, NOW because it mandates a Pre Trib. Rapture, you have to back track LOL, I see this every day.

No. This is you mocking God and asserting that God will mock "those who were left behind after the rapture".

Need to back track brother. If you can't argue a point solidly, just skip all the drama.

 

[WPM]

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do, you just dodged all the points about how those people in Rev. 4:4 has all the gifts PROMISED to those in Rev; 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21, and whereas when you cited other scriptures to point out what this fact meant, NOW because it mandates a Pre Trib. Rapture, you have to back track LOL, I see this every day.


Need to back track brother. If you can't argue a point solidly, just skip all the drama.

Where is your rapture in Rev 4?

 

[Davidpt]

So this is what I see, which I see both because of what Adam did, AND because of knowing how - given the 'right' motive - people who know the truth can choose to believe a lie despite knowing the truth (and act according to their choice).

Let's say it's post-return of Christ and post-the resurrection. I do not believe in the notion of "OSAS because now I'm IMMORTAL". This is why:

Adam was also immortal, and when he chose to believe the lie despite knowing the truth, his body that had until then been immortal began to decay - he lost his immortality.

(Bear in mind that the lie began with the words, "You will NOT surely die").

It was easy for someone who was still immortal (living in a body that did not decay at the time), to believe the lie. Adam only sinned once he believed the lie, not before - and he sinned BECAUSE he believed the lie. Had he NOT believed the lie, he would not have felt 'comfotable' with going ahead with eating the fruit forbidden him, because if he had NOT believed the lie, he would have known that despite his immortality, he would die if he ate of the forbidden fruit.

I don't believe it will ever be any different. Why?

- because the immortality of the created human being (to be alive [zao] forever) will still be dependent on the Spirit of Christ in him giving him eternal life [zoe].

The Spirit is the river of life [zoe] - the source of eternal life - the tree of life, which is the Word of God.

In other words, the source of life [zoe] (the Spirit) will still be the supply of eternal life [zoe] to the person who is experiencing being alive [zao] forever in a created body that does not decay and therefore will not die - the immortal body does not decay and die because it has the eternal life-supply of the Spirit abiding in it (i.e in the soul of the created person abiding in the body).

Only God possesses eternal life in Himself. Only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself and this is why scripture tells us He alone possesses immortality (in Himself).

Our bodies decay and die now even though we have the Spirit of Christ in us giving us eternal life IN Christ, because we have not yet experienced the resurrection of our bodies (which is already ours in Christ but is the hope that it still not seen / experienced, though we know it will be).

I do not have immortality for a created human being (us) conflated with the eternal life given by God IN Christ which is the life-supply needed for a created human being to experience being alive forever in a body that does not decay. Adam's body began to decay because he sinned and lost his access to the tree of life / river of life that was the life-supply of his immortality.

The third-last chapter of the Bible is the conclusion of what began then, which we read about in the third chapter of the Bible; and it began when Satan was permitted to declare to Adam: "You will NOT surely die."

Adam chose to believe the lie though he knew the truth, and so it was rebellion against God on the part of a human being who until then, was immortal.

It also ended the sabbath-rest of God.

A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FIRST TIME AND THE LAST TIME

The first time mankind rebelled against God, God caused mercy to be introduced in the announcement of a Savior who would undo all that was done - through his own sacrifice for the sin, His death and resurrection, and the power of His resurrection - deliverance FOR US not only from sin, but also from the first death that came upon all mankind,

and that fist death is the death of the body. Amil doctrine has the death of the body conflated with 'spiritual death' which it sees as OUR loss of the eternal life-supply of the Spirit - but spiritual death is not something that happened to anyone born after Adam's death. What Amil calls 'our' spiritual 'death' is actually just the absence of eternal life.

But the second time (and last time) that Satan will be permitted to deceive immortals, the sin committed by those who rebel will result in a different death - a permnant death called "the lake of fire" and "the second death" - which is also the destruction of death.

I believe immortals - not those who overcame when faced with martyrdom, but many immortals - out of the total population of humans who will be resurrected (1 Thess 4:16 together with those seen in verse 17) will be deceived by Satan into believing that because they are immortal, they will not surely die - just like happened to Adam - but there will be the remnant in "the camp of the saints". The rest will find themselves being destroyed soul and body - immortal body and all - by the fire coming down from God out of heaven - because they chose to believe the lie even though they knew the truth. The second death will receive its second installment at that point - the beast and false prophet had already been thrown alive into the lake of fire.

God is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna, He created us.

and so shall we ever be with the Lord(meaning the dead in Christ that rise first and those still alive and remaining when He returns)1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Can you show how your view does not contradict this part--and so shall we ever be with the Lord? Ever is a long time, it literally means forever. You of course already know it means that. Except, logically, some of them in verse 16 and 17 can't be with Him forever if after they are raised Revelation 20:9 is their fate.

Something else I have to wonder, the fact you keep saying Adam did what he did because he believed the lie. If he believed the lie that should mean he was deceived then. Which then contradicts 1 Timothy 2:14 if so.

Maybe the reason Adam did what he did was not because he too believed the lie, but maybe because he loved his wife so much that, in his mind at the time, if she's going down, he's going down with her?

In my mind, if Adam believed the lie that ye shall not die, that means he too was deceived. Except he wasn't deceived, yet he did what he did, regardless. Maybe it had something to do with love in his case rather than he too believing the lie? Think about it like this maybe. Christ gave up His life for His bride, the church. Adam gave up his life for his bride, Eve. Neither Adam nor Christ were deceived when they did these things. Christ then restores what Adam gave up, meaning He restores his life. Not only his life but his wife's life as well, plus everyone else since the beginning of time that ends up saved in the end.

 

[Davidpt]

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do

How do you see that working out, for example, if there is also another preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, except this preacher is concluding post trib not pretrib? Now all of a sudden years of experience is not that relevant after all. Because if things like that prove things, everyone with all these years of experience would at least be coming to the same conclusions about these things, not polar opposite conclusions instead.