Was judas Iscariot used by Satan ??

[David Lamb]

Yes, I saw that, but the burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate how the term "satan" can be used in a positive context, and how "devil" or "false accuser" consistently refers to human beings.

I have supplied the evidence and no doubt you have fact checked all references.

The others are deep in their deception but maybe you are slightly open to truth?

Time will tell

First, it was you, not me, who said that the word translated "Satan" means "adversary" and is sometimes used in a positive way in the bible. I agreed with you. so why does the burden of proof lie with me? For example:

“Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants [were] with him.” (Nu 22:22 NKJV)

I never said that the devil or false accuser consistently refers to human beings. I don't believe it does. It wasn't a human being that tempted the Saviour in the wilderness, and when James wrote, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you," he certainly wasn't encouraging his readers to drive human adversaries away.

 

[David Lamb]

So your supernatural evil being is not a monster?
The burden of proof is still with you to show this being from Scripture.
Will you try or retreat?

Well, all I can say is that he is not (as far as I am aware) ever referred to in the bible as a monster.

 

[David Lamb]

What also is astounding is David Lamb knows and understands this truth about the word Satan and yet he stills maintains this mosters existence even though not once has he provided any evidence to support his belief.

This is what you would expect when false notions are held about the Word of God.

No David Lamb (in other words, I) does not maintain that the devil is a monster. I do believe that the Scriptures teach the existence of God's arch-enemy, known as the devil, Satan, the evil one, the serpent, etc.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I never said that the devil or false accuser consistently refers to human beings. I don't believe it does. It wasn't a human being that tempted the Saviour in the wilderness, and when James wrote, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you," he certainly wasn't encouraging his readers to drive human adversaries away.

Proof?

Where in James does he mention the false accuser is superhuman?

 

[Hiddenthings]

No David Lamb (in other words, I) does not maintain that the devil is a monster. I do believe that the Scriptures teach the existence of God's arch-enemy, known as the devil, Satan, the evil one, the serpent, etc.

This is funny - your devil is pure evil, but not a monster. Maybe you don't understand the deifintion of monster!

So many names? and you know it exists in God's nature?

I can tell you have not thoguht this through.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Well, all I can say is that he is not (as far as I am aware) ever referred to in the bible as a monster.

Okay well this is a start!

- Satan can be good
- Devil is always spoken of in a negative context
- While your devil is pure evil he or it is not a monster

 

[Hiddenthings]

First, it was you, not me, who said that the word translated "Satan" means "adversary" and is sometimes used in a positive way in the bible. I agreed with you. so why does the burden of proof lie with me? For example:

“Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants [were] with him.” (Nu 22:22 NKJV)

What this shows me is that you understand the etymology of the word and how it applies within its context—well done.

Now, take that same skill and apply it consistently throughout the Word of God.

What you’ll discover is that the idea of a fallen angel or a purely evil being isn’t actually taught anywhere in Scripture. It’s a concept imported from pagan traditions and layered onto this and many other biblical terms.

 

[Hiddenthings]

David, the context for your James reference is given in the previous verse!

But he gives greater grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble Jas 4:6.

Humans are proud!
Humans are false accusers!
Humans will visably flee from you when you cling to God because they will see your good works.

Can you see?

 

[David Lamb]

Proof?

Proof of what? That I never said that the devil or false accuser consistently refers to human beings? If so just re-read my posts. Proof that it wasn't a human being that tempted the Saviour in the wilderness? What human being could do the things that the devil did to tempt Jesus? Proof that James wasn't encouraging his readers to drive human adversaries away? Simply that if he was referring to some human being, he would have needed to explain to his readers which human being he meant.

Where in James does he mention the false accuser is superhuman?

He doesn't, but we don't rely on one verse from James for the bible's teaching about the devil.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Proof of what? That I never said that the devil or false accuser consistently refers to human beings?

Proof in your supernatural being - you believe don't you? Evidence?

If so just re-read my posts.

Don't need to David as I already have!

Proof that it wasn't a human being that tempted the Saviour in the wilderness? What human being could do the things that the devil did to tempt Jesus? Proof that James wasn't encouraging his readers to drive human adversaries away?

Evidence David - you don't have any...even to consider the alternative interpratations...surely you are not that closed minded?

Simply that if he was referring to some human being, he would have needed to explain to his readers which human being he meant.

He doesn't, but we don't rely on one verse from James for the bible's teaching about the devil.

There are several possible ways the temptation of Christ could have unfolded:

1. In his own mind
2. Through a representative of the High Priest or the Council
3. Via an obedient angel
4. Or, as you claim, through some "evil angel"

For you to be so closed-minded insisting that your interpretation is the only valid one shows a refusal to even entertain the possibility that you might be wrong.

Take your quote from James, for example: the surrounding verses clearly speak of human behavior. There's no mention of a demonic angel anywhere in the context.

The burden of proof is on you. I've presented my case many times, and the evidence is clear and overwhelming.

From your side, all I see is: “See, the word is here, so it must mean what I say it means.”

That simply doesn’t hold up.

 

[Hiddenthings]

He doesn't, but we don't rely on one verse from James for the bible's teaching about the devil.

Another interesting admission.

You’ve acknowledged that satan (meaning “adversary”) is mentioned only once in John’s Gospel and even there, the being is never clearly defined.

Now you’ve also admitted that the book of James is silent on the true nature of this so-called being.

What you’ll begin to realise, if you keep thinking critically about devil and satan, is that their meaning is always shaped by the context in which they appear.

For example, Judas’ adversary was the conception of his own sinful plan to betray the Lord. (Entering his mind and acting on this sin)
In James, the warning is clearly directed toward proud and arrogant people, and those false accusers will flee when one submits fully to God.

You're starting to learn... slowly, but surely.

 

[David Lamb]

What this shows me is that you understand the etymology of the word and how it applies within its context—well done.

Now, take that same skill and apply it consistently throughout the Word of God.

What you’ll discover is that the idea of a fallen angel or a purely evil being isn’t actually taught anywhere in Scripture. It’s a concept imported from pagan traditions and layered onto this and many other biblical terms.

I don't think I have mentioned "fallen angel" anywhere in this thread. (I may be mistaken, as I have written a number of posts here). I have said the the Scriptures teach that the devil is not merely some sinful human being. As an example, Jesus said to some hearers:

“"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” (Joh 8:44 NKJV)

As He was addressing a number of Jews, He clearly wasn't suggesting that they all had the same male parent!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't think I have mentioned "fallen angel" anywhere in this thread. (I may be mistaken, as I have written a number of posts here). I have said the the Scriptures teach that the devil is not merely some sinful human being. As an example, Jesus said to some hearers:

“"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” (Joh 8:44 NKJV)

As He was addressing a number of Jews, He clearly wasn't suggesting that they all had the same male parent!

I believe your evasiveness is starting to reveal several weaknesses in your belief.

It’s particularly notable that you haven’t acknowledged misquoting James 4, nor have you addressed the many well known interpretations of Matthew 4.

And now, as expected, you are attempting to misrepresent John 8.

In this context, Jesus is asking, “Who is your father?” They claimed Abraham, but Jesus goes on to reveal exactly whose father they truly belonged to, and it wasn’t some superhuman evil being, as you are trying to suggest.

Your assumption lacks a clear definition of who or what the “false accuser” actually is, leaving your ideas purely inferred. This only strengthens my position and weakens yours.

Let me ask you this:

If the Pharisees and Sadducees claimed Abraham as their father, but Jesus taught that they belonged to a different father, then whose “seed” were they really, and why?

Let me help you.

From whose "seed" came the first murderer?

Think David, think about what was in Christ's mind when explaining to them who their father was!

Two seeds!

Seed of the Woman
Seed of the __??????__(carnal minded)

Who came to be of this Seed?

Use your Bible to answer for its all revealed in the Scriptures and you don't need to use pagan gods to answer it!

 

[David Lamb]

I believe your evasiveness is starting to reveal several weaknesses in your belief.

I assure you I am not being evasive. I don't claim to be the world's best debater, so any weaknesses are in the way I express my beliefs, rather than in the beliefs themselves.

It’s particularly notable that you haven’t acknowledged misquoting James 4,

But I didn't misquote James 4. I quoted a verse from James 4 verbatim.

nor have you addressed the many well known interpretations of Matthew 4.

And now, as expected, you are attempting to misrepresent John 8.

In this context, Jesus is asking, “Who is your father?” They claimed Abraham, but Jesus goes on to reveal exactly whose father they truly belonged to, and it wasn’t some superhuman evil being, as you are trying to suggest.

Why not? I know that we cannot always say that the majority is always correct, but it seems strange to me that you are the only person I have ever come across who has put forward the notion that the devil is not a supernatural evil being.

Your assumption lacks a clear definition of who or what the “false accuser” actually is, leaving your ideas purely inferred. This only strengthens my position and weakens yours.

Let me ask you this:

If the Pharisees and Sadducees claimed Abraham as their father, but Jesus taught that they belonged to a different father, then whose “seed” were they really, and why?

Let me help you.

From whose "seed" came the first murderer?

Think David, think about what was in Christ's mind when explaining to them who their father was!

Two seeds!

Seed of the Woman
Seed of the __??????__(carnal minded)

Who came to be of this Seed?

Use your Bible to answer for its all revealed in the Scriptures and you don't need to use pagan gods to answer it!

Well, if we go back to the beginning of the bible, we have Adam and Eve, the first people, falling to temptation from "the serpent." In case we start thinking of talking snakes, in the last book of the bible we are told who the serpent is:

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Re 12:9 NKJV)

I haven't resorted to pagan gods, and I would not do so.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I assure you I am not being evasive. I don't claim to be the world's best debater, so any weaknesses are in the way I express my beliefs, rather than in the beliefs themselves.

But I didn't misquote James 4. I quoted a verse from James 4 verbatim.

No, you inferred your being on the text, where there was none - are you now being dishonest?

Why not? I know that we cannot always say that the majority is always correct, but it seems strange to me that you are the only person I have ever come across who has put forward the notion that the devil is not a supernatural evil being.

the devil in its context is many things - it takes careful reading of the Word as you are finding to discover the truth of that text.

Well, if we go back to the beginning of the bible, we have Adam and Eve, the first people, falling to temptation from "the serpent." In case we start thinking of talking snakes, in the last book of the bible we are told who the serpent is:

Well you would be in the right track. I've sent you a personal study to assist you - I'm certain the supporting references will suffice.

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Re 12:9 NKJV)

I haven't resorted to pagan gods, and I would not do so.

It really comes down to how you interpret Revelation 12:9.

I actually appreciate your caution it suggests you're still examining your beliefs, and perhaps finding it harder to defend them as clearly as before.

As you continue to examine the Scriptures such as James 4, Judas in John 13, and the Lord’s temptations in Matthew 4 you are beginning to see the correct understanding come into focus. Now we can add Revelation 12:9 to that list, because you already recognize that there is no literal woman clothed with the sun. Likewise, the symbol of the serpent and what it truly represents remains, for now, hidden from your understanding.

 

[David Lamb]

No, you inferred your being on the text, where there was none - are you now being dishonest?

I am sorry but I don;t understand what you mean by inferring my being on the text where there was none. Certainly I am not being dishonest.

the devil in its context is many things - it takes careful reading of the Word as you are finding to discover the truth of that text.

Well you would be in the right track. I've sent you a personal study to assist you - I'm certain the supporting references will suffice.

It really comes down to how you interpret Revelation 12:9.

I actually appreciate your caution it suggests you're still examining your beliefs, and perhaps finding it harder to defend them as clearly as before.

As you continue to examine the Scriptures such as James 4, Judas in John 13, and the Lord’s temptations in Matthew 4 you are beginning to see the correct understanding come into focus. Now we can add Revelation 12:9 to that list, because you already recognize that there is no literal woman clothed with the sun. Likewise, the symbol of the serpent and what it truly represents remains, for now, hidden from your understanding.

I think we have spent rather too long debating back and forth with each other. I must say I find your beliefs very unusual, particularly your beliefs about the devil, and your belief, which came up in another thread, that Jesus Christ is not God. I am going to leave this thread now. Thank you for the interaction.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I am sorry but I don;t understand what you mean by inferring my being on the text where there was none. Certainly I am not being dishonest.

I think we have spent rather too long debating back and forth with each other. I must say I find your beliefs very unusual, particularly your beliefs about the devil, and your belief, which came up in another thread, that Jesus Christ is not God. I am going to leave this thread now. Thank you for the interaction.

I understand.

As you've likely realised, it's difficult to defend a false teaching. I also noticed you quoted a Scripture without offering any real explanation. It seems you hold to a traditional view of the devil, but in a somewhat non-committal way.

I trust you'll take the time to read the private study on John 8 it will help bring clarity to its true meaning.

Keep reading the Bible, but more importantly, be sure to ask the right questions and don’t stop asking until you find the answers grounded in the Word of God.

God bless.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The thread has offered several thought-provoking insights that deserve careful consideration.

Those attempting to present evidence for this so-called evil being have seen various alternative possibilities such as, God, obedient angels, or people in general. Yet, no consistent context can be found that clearly supports the idea of a supernatural evil god.

In fact, the Bible also speaks of nations and religous entities being satan or the devil, but in highly figrative and symbolic language there is no descriptor to an evil angelic being.

Belief in Satan as a Real Being

A 2020 survey revealed that 56% of Americans believe Satan is a real spiritual being who influences human lives, while 30% view Satan as merely symbolic, and 14% are unsure.

Beliefs Among Christians

Among self-identified Christians, nearly 60% believe Satan is not a living being but a symbol of evil. In contrast, about 35% believe Satan is real, and the remaining 8% are unsure

With the work of the NET Bible the first fully electronic Bible, it's become increasingly clear that translators are growing more curious by key verses traditionally used to support belief in an evil supernatural being. Notably, they all agree that the Old Testament is silent on any such teaching.

How would it change you life if you were shown conclusive evidence that this being did not exist?

 

[Scott Downey]

Proof?

Where in James does he mention the false accuser is superhuman?

Not read the entire thread, but yes, Satan, a celestial fallen creature, not a human, is the accuser of God's people

Revelation 12

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

David Lamb has opened a door for you should you wish to enter.

Meh, Jesus opened the door for me.

Other can play with devils if they want.

Jesus set me free from devils so they are all under my feet!

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:19-23
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.