Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

[marks]

Which passage? I assume you mean Revelation 20?

Yes.

Why not post the passage, and highlight the parts you find the Bible to show being symbolic, and quote where the Bible shows this. And quote where the Bible tells us the meanings of the symbols. You seem unwilling to do this, diverting into any number of other topics.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I find it amusing that until I asked you several times, you didn't bother addressing one single passage that I brought up in the original posts.

Perhaps you've not read my posts?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:34-39 KJV
34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This doesn't actually say heaven and earth would pass away at the same time Jesus returns. There is a parallel passage:

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The context of what He said is in relation to His second coming and the fact that no one knows the day or hour. He was saying that no one knows the day or hour of His coming when heaven and earth pass away and all unbelievers are killed like all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day. I'm interpreting the text very literally. Why are you not interpreting Matthew 24:35-39 as literally as you interpret Revelation 20?

 

[marks]

LOL. You are the one who came here and tried to dictate everything in the thread that I created.

We've not even left the starting gate. You asked that I respond to one thing in your posts, and I did, and I've asked you to reply to my response, about where the Bible shows these things to be symbols, and where the Bible shows the meanings of those symbols, and you've not done this.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.

Why not post the passage, and highlight the parts you find the Bible to show being symbolic, and quote where the Bible shows this. And quote where the Bible tells us the meanings of the symbols. You seem unwilling to do this, diverting into any number of other topics.

LOL. Here you are again trying to tell me how to go about proving my doctrine. If you want to know how I interpret Revelation 20 and why then just read the second post in this thread. Let me know if you have any questions. You want me to interpret the passage in isolation from the rest of scripture, but I won't do that. That is not a wise approach to interpreting scripture. How about you show how your interpretation of Revelation 20 lines up with the passages I referenced in the second post? Just pick one and show me how your interpretation of Revelation 20 can be reconciled with that passage.

 

[marks]

The context of what He said is in relation to His second coming and the fact that no one knows the day or hour. He was saying that no one knows the day or hour of His coming when heaven and earth pass away and all unbelievers are killed like all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day. I'm interpreting the text very literally. Why are you not interpreting Matthew 24:35-39 as literally as you interpret Revelation 20?

Jesus did not say it would be at that time. And after Jesus returns, He gathers Israel, and then He gathers the nations, and this is upon the earth. Joel is exceedingly clear about this.

So in fact I'm not adding anything to the passage, while it appears you are, that it happens at that time, contrary to the parallel passage.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

or

Heaven and earth shall pass away when I return, but my words shall not pass away.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We've not even left the starting gate. You asked that I respond to one thing in your posts, and I did, and I've asked you to reply to my response, about where the Bible shows these things to be symbols, and where the Bible shows the meanings of those symbols, and you've not done this.

This discussion is over. You clearly have no interest in addressing what I said in the original posts and I'm looking for someone who is willing to do that. That person is clearly not you. You are clearly afraid to even attempt to show how your interpretation of Revelation 20 can be reconciled with any of the scriptures I referenced in the second post. I think you know it can't be done or else you would have done it by now.

 

[marks]

Here you are again trying to tell me how to go about proving my doctrine.

I'm not asking you to prove your doctrine. I'm asking for Scripture to authenticate your assertions. If you don't want to do that, and it seems you do not, it remains your opinion, and we all have opinions of things, right? So that's OK to have opinions, only, we should be clear about what is actually stated, and what is our opinion.

But if intend to convince me, it won't be by opinions, rather, you'll have to show it in the Scriptures.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are clearly afraid to even attempt to show how your interpretation of Revelation 20

That comes next. I've challenged your opening statement, and you refuse to support it. I'm holding you to the exact wordings of these texts.

But OK, I'm not going to argue about it, like you said, it's over.

And I agree.

You are telling me I'm afraid to show my interpretations, what a crock! Yes, it's over.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did not say it would be at that time. And after Jesus returns, He gathers Israel, and then He gathers the nations, and this is upon the earth. Joel is exceedingly clear about this.

So in fact I'm not adding anything to the passage, while it appears you are, that it happens at that time, contrary to the parallel passage.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

or

Heaven and earth shall pass away when I return, but my words shall not pass away.

You're not looking at the context. Peter also taught that heaven and earth will pass away when Jesus returns, so what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-39 lines up perfectly with what Peter said here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not asking you to prove your doctrine. I'm asking for Scripture to authenticate your assertions.

Did you not read the second post in this thread. I clearly explained what I believe and why there using clear, straightforward scripture. Let me know if there's anything I wrote in that post that you don't understand and I'll try to clarify that.

If you don't want to do that, and it seems you do not, it remains your opinion, and we all have opinions of things, right? So that's OK to have opinions, only, we should be clear about what is actually stated, and what is our opinion.

LOL. If I don't want to do that? I've already done it! Is this some kind of prank that you're playing here? I don't get the feeling that you read my second post in this thread or else you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. Unlike you, I have clearly explained what I believe and why and I have shown why I interpret Revelation 20 the way I do. If you interpreted the passages I referenced in the second post as literally as you interprete Revelation 20 then you'd be an Amil like me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you thinking that the burning up happens immediately after Jesus' return? That the moment Jesus arrives, the earth is slagged?

Yes, of course. That is what the text indicates. Paul wrote about the same event here...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Paul said that the destruction that accompanies the Lord's return will happen suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night and he said "they will not escape". Do you think the destruction Paul wrote about here will happen right after Jesus arrives? If so, then why would you not think the same of what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12 about the same event? It's no wonder that Paul said "they will not escape" since the sudden destruction will be caused by fire coming down on the entire earth.

@marks Do you have any thoughts on what I said here? I'd love to know how you reconcile 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 with your Premil doctrine. If you interpret them literally and straightforwardly as I do, then I don't see any way to reconcile them with Premil. But, feel free to show me how you think that can be done.

 

[Taken]

I don't know why you're saying this. I'm simply asking you to tell me how you interpret Matthew 24:35-39 and how do you reconcile what it says with your Premil doctrine? If you read it as straightforwardly as you read Revelation 20, you should see that Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away when He returns, so how can there be a thousand year earthly kingdom at that point in that case?

Matt 24:
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till …all these things be fulfilled.
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them.

Scripture does NOT say …

@Spiritual Israelite..”Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away when He returns,”

Scripture Does say…
As in the days of Noe…so shall be the coming of the Son of man…

In Noah’s day, Noah was Lifted Up above the Earth. While those left on Earth were unprepared and Subject to Wraths sent down from heaven.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Those IN Christ shall be lifted Up Above the Earth…and Return With The Son of man to Earth, to occupy his Earthy Kingdom.

1 Thes 4:
“Those IN Christ”…
“Forever be With the Lord.”

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive ( in CHRIST) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caught up… is the Rapture.
Caught up… at this time, ONLY Applies to those “IN Christ”.

The Terms… Believer, Christian, True Believer, True / Real Christian… Are Not the Terms which Scripturally specifically identify an individual “IN Christ.”

An individual “IN Christ” IS Wholly … body, soul, spirit PREPARED to be Redeemed and NOT subject to…
The wrath of the Lamb
The Devils Wrath
Gods Wrath…
Which Shall commence AFTER the Rapture
AND
BEFORE The Son of man Returns to Earth WITH His Angels and His Saints “IN Christ”.
To reign over the His Kingdom on the Earth AND the Nations of MORTALS… for 1,000 years.

If you are NOT prepared IN CHRIST…you Should have zero expectation to be Raptured / lift up from the face of the Earth, as You reject that Offering.
No need to be awkwardly huffy toward others who ARE prepared for their Lords Hour of Redemption.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matt 24:
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till …all these things be fulfilled.
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them.

Scripture does NOT say …

@Spiritual Israelite..”Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away when He returns,”

It does say that and Peter taught the same thing here...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Scripture Does say…
As in the days of Noe…so shall be the coming of the Son of man…

In Noah’s day, Noah was Lifted Up above the Earth. While those left on Earth were unprepared and Subject to Wraths sent down from heaven.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Right. So, those who belong to Christ will be changed and have immortal bodies while those left on the earth will all be killed just as those who were outside the ark were all killed in Noah's day. So, what mortals does this leave to populate the earth after that? None. Premill cannot be reconciled with scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. Those are very clear, straightforward passages and they do not support the idea of any mortals surviving Christ's return and then populating the earth for a thousand years.

Those IN Christ shall be lifted Up Above the Earth…and Return With The Son of man to Earth, to occupy his Earthy Kingdom.

1 Thes 4:
“Those IN Christ”…
“Forever be With the Lord.”

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive ( in CHRIST and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caught up… is the Rapture.
Caught up… at this time, ONLY Applies to those “IN Christ”.

The Terms… Believer, Christian, True Believer, True / Real Christian… Are Not the Terms which Scripturally specifically identify an individual “IN Christ.”

An individual “IN Christ” IS Wholly … body, soul, spirit PREPARED to be Redeemed and NOT subject to…
The wrath of the Lamb
The Devils Wrath
Gods Wrath…
Which Shall commence AFTER the Rapture
AND
BEFORE The Son of man Returns to Earth WITH His Angels and His Saints “IN Christ”.
To reign over the His Kingdom o
n the Earth AND the Nations of MORTALS… for 1,000 years.

If you are NOT prepared IN CHRIST…you Should have zero expectation to be Raptured / lift up from the face of the Earth, as You reject that Offering.
No need to be awkwardly huffy toward others who ARE prepared for their Lords Hour of Redemption.

There is no need to make things so complicated. Jesus made things simple to understand by saying this...

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

So, when Jesus comes, those who are with Him, which are those who are in Christ (Christians) will be changed to put on bodily immortality and caught up to Him in the air while those who are against Him (unbelievers) will all be killed just like all unbelievers were killed in Noah's day. What mortals does that leave to populate the earth for 1,000 years? None. It's not surprising that you would have to invent this convoluted, indecipherable nonsense to get around that.

 

[Zao is life]

The foundation of the Premillennialism doctrine is based on some of the most highly debatable scriptures in the entire Bible and not on any clear, straightforward scriptures.

The foundation of the Amillennialist doctrine is based on some of the most highly debatable assertions capable of being produced by intelligent human beings (such as the above assertion), but never on any logical interpretation of a great number of clear, straightforward scriptures, and it begins with:

1. Flatly ignoring the fact that in Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind; and that Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world; and flatly ignoring the fact that the reason given in Revelation 20:1-3 for Satan being bound is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired, instead introducing other interpretations of "how" or in what sense Satan "was" bound.

2. Flatly ignoring the fact that scripture (Ephesians 2:2) informs us that Satan is even now still "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13), and flatly ignoring the fact that the saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7).

3. Flatly Ignoring the fact that the only power Satan's lies have to deceive human beings is the power that human beings give to his lies (and hence, to Satan to deceive the nations through their belief in his lies).

4.. Re-interpreting the clear, straightforward statement about the binding of Satan in terms of his deception of the nations to mean that the coming of the gospel "has had the effect of completely withdrawing God's permission for him to introduce lies which oppose the Word of God".

5. Conflating the destruction of Satan's power over death which is something which the death and resurrection of Christ has accomplished forever and ever, with the binding of Satan for a thousand years in terms of his deception of the nations.

6. Conflating Jesus' parable regarding binding the strong man before his house (the demon-possessed man) can be broken into and his goods spoiled, with the ruler of the demons being bound for a thousand years in terms of what God allows him to do as he introduces lies in order to deceive human beings.

7. Flatly ignoring the fact that those who are said to reign with Christ for a thousand years had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast which had ascended from the abyss, and instead asserting that it's referring to billions of Christians who reigned with Christ over a period of over 1,900 years before the beast had even ascended from the abyss.

etc etc.

The list of highly debatable and illogical readings of scripture so as to attempt to get biblical scripture to comply with the Amillennialist assertions, is very long.

It seems that the two main pillars of Premillennialism are Revelation 20 and Zechariah 14.

It seems that Amillennialists illogically and nonsensically ignore the fact that Amillennialism is the name given to the an interpretation of the thousand years written about only in Revelation 20, as well as the fact that Amillennialism is the name given to an interpretation of what it means for Satan to be bound in terms of his deception of the nations, which is also written about only in Revelation 20, and if there were no Revelation 20, there would be no reference to a millennium in any theological "ism".

Any honest person will acknowledge that those are difficult passages to interpret.

Any honest person wouldn't find dozens of reasons to assert that:

(i) even though there are no scriptures in the New Testament written before the Revelation that suggest that Satan was bound in terms of his deception of the nations; and

(ii) even though there is nothing in Revelation chapter 12 to suggest that Satan was bound after having been cast down to the earth or before he gives power to the beast,

Any honest person wouldn't find dozens of dubious reasons concocted only by corrupting the meaning of many other parts of the New Testament to assert that Revelation 20:1-3 is not implying by its use of the metaphors of chains, a key to the abyss, and a seal set on him, that its talking about the complete incapacitation of his ability to deceive the nations for a thousand years.

Any honest person wouldn't assert that Amillennialism isn't all about attempting to "prove" that what Revelation 20 and many other New Testament texts plainly say, is not what they "actually" mean.

Premills assume that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically.

Amils assume that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically, and Amils divide the cycles present in the Revelation where Amillennialist theology demands the cycles must be divided, instead of where the Revelation itself places those divisions - because Amils assume that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically.

I believe that they manipulate the rest of the book and the rest of prophetic scripture to fit that assumption.

I believe that they (Amillennialists) manipulate the rest of the book and the rest of prophetic scripture to fit that assumption.

I shouldn't have to convince anyone that the book of Revelation is not all chronological from beginning to end.

What's bizarre about this is the fact that you and many Amils besides yourself attempt to convince those who are convinced that the book of Revelation is not all chronogical from beginning to end (most Premillennialists) that the book of Revelation is not all chronological from beginning to end, simply because you assume that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically.

What's also bizarre is that you cannot see how the last three chapters of the Bible are the conclusion of the first three chapters of the Bible, and you remain completely blinded through your assumption which you yourself brought up, to the fact that the third-last chapter of the Bible is the conclusion of what began in the third chapter of the Bible.

Revelation 11 and 12 is the most obvious example where it is not written in chronological order. So, to make that assumption about Revelation 19 and 20 is not wise.

To make the assumption based on your assumption that the last cycle of sevens in the Revelation ends not at the close of chapter 19 but at the close of chapter 20, and then believe that the fact that Revelation 11 and 12 are not chronological somehow proves your assumption, is the most obvious example of the above kind of bizarre false assertions based on logical fallacies that Amils tend to make.

Not all Premills interpret Zechariah 14 the same way, but almost all of them use Zechariah 14 as one of their main support passages.

Not all Amils use the same passages of scripture as their main support passages either. Indeed, your appeal to the way some Premils interpret Zechariah 14 as though this = proof that your assumptions about what the words in Revelation 20:1-6 tell us about when the thousand years commences, is another one of those silly logical fallacies Amils are so good at producing.

Another problem with interpreting Zechariah 14 as relating to a future thousand year earthly millennial kingdom ..

.. is that it produces the logical fallacy Amils have that just because many Premils can be worng about their interpretation of a portion of Old Testmant prophetic scripture, this somehow proves that

(a) all the false assumptions that Amils make; as well as
(b) the way they change (corrupt) the meaning of many New Testament passages of scripture (in the way they interpret them) in order to make them all comply with Amil theology,

is valid just because Premillennialists have a false interpretation of a portion of Old Testament prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The foundation of the Amillennialist doctrine is based on some of the most highly debatable assertions capable of being produced by intelligent human beings (such as the above assertion), but never on any logical interpretation of a great number of clear, straightforward scriptures, and it begins with:

1. Flatly ignoring the fact that in Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind; and that Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world; and flatly ignoring the fact that the reason given in Revelation 20:1-3 for Satan being bound is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired, instead introducing other interpretations of "how" or in what sense Satan "was" bound.

2. Flatly ignoring the fact that scripture (Ephesians 2:2) informs us that Satan is even now still "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13), and flatly ignoring the fact that the saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7).

3. Flatly Ignoring the fact that the only power Satan's lies have to deceive human beings is the power that human beings give to his lies (and hence, to Satan to deceive the nations through their belief in his lies).

4.. Re-interpreting the clear, straightforward statement about the binding of Satan in terms of his deception of the nations to mean that the coming of the gospel "has had the effect of completely withdrawing God's permission for him to introduce lies which oppose the Word of God".

5. Conflating the destruction of Satan's power over death which is something which the death and resurrection of Christ has accomplished forever and ever, with the binding of Satan for a thousand years in terms of his deception of the nations.

6. Conflating Jesus' parable regarding binding the strong man before his house (the demon-possessed man) can be broken into and his goods spoiled, with the ruler of the demons being bound for a thousand years in terms of what God allows him to do as he introduces lies in order to deceive human beings.

7. Flatly ignoring the fact that those who are said to reign with Christ for a thousand years had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast which had ascended from the abyss, and instead asserting that it's referring to billions of Christians who reigned with Christ over a period of over 1,900 years before the beast had even ascended from the abyss.

etc etc.

The list of highly debatable and illogical readings of scripture so as to attempt to get biblical scripture to comply with the Amillennialist assertions, is very long.



It seems that Amillennialists illogically and nonsensically ignore the fact that Amillennialism is the name given to the an interpretation of the thousand years written about only in Revelation 20, as well as the fact that Amillennialism is the name given to the an interpretation of what it means for Satan to be bound in terms of his deception of the nations, which is also written about only in Revelation 20, and if there were no Revelation 20, there would be no reference to a millennium in any theological "ism".



Any honest person wouldn't find dozens of reasons to assert that:

(i) even though there are no scriptures in the New Testament written before the Revelation that suggest that Satan was bound in terms of his deception of the nations; and

(ii) even though there is nothing in Revelation chapter 12 to suggest that Satan was bound after having been cast down to the earth or before he gives power to the beast,

Any honest person wouldn't find dozens of dubious reasons concocted only by corrupting the meaning of many other parts of the New Testament to assert that Revelation 20:1-3 is not implying by its use of the metaphors of chains, a key to the abyss, and a seal set on him, that its talking about the complete incapacitation of his ability to deceive the nations for a thousand years.

Any honest person wouldn't assert that Amillennialism isn't all about attempting to disprove what Revelation 20 and many other New Testament plainly say, is not what they "actually" mean.



Amils assume that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically, and Amils divide the cycles present in the Revelation where Amillennialist theology demans the cycles must be divided instead of where the Revelaiton itself places those divisions because Amils assume that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically,



I believe that they (Amillennialists) manipulate the rest of the book and the rest of prophetic scripture to fit that assumption.



What's bizarre about this is the fact that you and many Amils besides yourself attempt to convince those who are convinced that the book of Revelation is not all chronogical from beginning to end (most Premillennialists) that the book of Revelation is not all chronological from beginning to end, simply because you assume that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically.

What's also bizarre is that you cannot see how the last three chapters of the Bible are the conclusion of the first three chapters of the Bible, and you remain completely blinded through your assumption which you yourself brought up, to the fact that the third-last chapter of the Bible is the conclusion of what began in the third chapter of the Bible.



To make the assumption based on your assumption that the last cycle of sevens in the Revelation ends not at the close of chapter 19 but at the close of chapter 20, and then believe that the fact that Revelation 11 and 12 are not chronogical somehow proves your assumption, is the most obvious example of the above kind of bizarre false assertions Amils tend to make.



Not all Amils use the same passages of scripture as their main support passages either. Indeed, your appeal to the way some Premils interpret Zechariah 14 as though this = proof that your assumptions about what the words in Revelation 20:1-6 tell us about when the thousand years commences, is another one of those silly logical fallacies Amils are so good at producing.



.. is that it produces the logical fallacy Amils have that just because many Premils can be worng about their interpretation of a portion of Old Testmant prophetic scripture, this somehow proves that

(a) all the false assumptions that Amils make; as well as
(b) the way they change (corrupt) the meaning of many New Testament passages of scripture (in the way they interpret them) in order to make them all comply with Amil theology,

is valid just because Premillennialists have a false interpretation of a portion of Old Testament prophecy.

Great job of not addressing anything I said in my original posts. You know you can't refute anything I said in those posts, so I'm not surprised that you didn't even try. But, don't feel too bad. No other Premill is really trying to do so, either, so you're not alone in that.

 

[Zao is life]

Great job of not addressing anything I said in my original posts. You know you can't refute anything I said in those posts, so I'm not surprised that you didn't even try. But, don't feel too bad. No other Premill is really trying to do so, either, so you're not alone in that.

Great job of pointing at yourself in a mirror in your original post.

You proved nothing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Great job of pointing at yourself in a mirror in your original post.

You proved nothing.

Yet, you are completely incapable of refuting even one of the points I made in the second post where I showed clear, straightforward scriptures that my Amill doctrine is based on. At least, I assume that is the case since you are not even attempting to do so.

 

[jeffweeder]

Right. So, those who belong to Christ will be changed and have immortal bodies while those left on the earth will all be killed just as those who were outside the ark were all killed in Noah's day.

Yep. As it was in Noah day, so it will be when Jesus comes.

So, what mortals does this leave to populate the earth after that?

None.

Luke 17
26 And just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the time of [the second coming of] the Son of Man: 27 the people were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, [they were indifferent to God] until the day that Noah went into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

As the ungodly are perishing we are still rising to meet him in the air.

Paul puts it this way...,

2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

Zero population on the day we are glorified = premill is dead

Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

=GLORIFICATION DAY.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why don't you mention scriptures talking about Satan being bound so that he is unable to go about as "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", deceiving the nations, etc etc?

Why don't you mention how the beast has been rising from the abyss and some saints have been beheaded for their refusal to worship him since the first century until now and so they have been reigning with Christ a thousand years every time they got beheaded?

Why do you post all the above scriptures instead of the scriptures that talk about the millennium if you want to provide support for Amilennialism?

Believing that the above scriptures you posted support Amillennialism is just another one of the logical fallacies you always boast about maintaining in your understanding of Revelation 20 - 22.

Do you not listen? I based my doctrine on what I believe to be clear, straightforward scriptures that I then use to interpret more difficult scriptures. Why are you avoiding addressing anything I said in my original posts? For example, scripture explicitly teaches that Jesus began to reign after His resurrection. Should we not use those scriptures to help understand Revelation 20 when it talks about Jesus reigning? I believe so and that's the point of this thread.