Was judas Iscariot used by Satan ??

[Hiddenthings]

Gotta question the thought process here. If the original target audience already believed the Devil existed, why would the authors bother to write an origin story?

More questions to consider:

Does the Bible clearly describe the attributes of our mortal nature along with its lusts and desires? If such a being truly existed and played a central role in this struggle, why would it be hidden? What kind of God would conceal the enemy?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You just have no answers that's all...

I told you Jesus said the devil was real and you continue to believe Jesus is a liar.

Hell is hot an d permanent so you might want to repent before it's too late for you.

You believe in a false god, one you cannot prove exists. What this means is your input is extremely weak because as we have shown you have no Big Boy Stories about this creature devouring people.

You're not offending me at all. I feel sorry for you because you are not only spiritually blind, but on top of that you claim Jesus is a liar.

Go ahead, laugh it up while you can

6 Times Jesus Talked About Satan

Matthew 4:10
In Matthew 4:10 it states: “Then Jesus said to him, ‘Be gone, Satan! For it is written that you shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.’” This verse teaches us about the authority that Jesus has over the devil. During this time Satan was trying to switch Jesus to the dark side. Jesus had to pass the test that Adam failed in the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:16–17; 3:1–6). Jesus refused to believe the devil’s lies and instead obeyed His Father. Jesus was tempted but did not sin (Heb. 4:15). Satan has power, but Jesus has ultimate power over all creation. When Jesus said, “Be gone, Satan!” the devil had to obey him (Matt. 4:11). We can be confident in the midst of any trial that God is in control.

John 8:44
Speaking to a group of Jews, Jesus says, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44). Satan is the “father of lies” in that he is the original liar. Satan told the first lie in recorded history to Eve, in the Garden of Eden. Lying is Satan’s primary weapon against God’s children. He uses the tactic of deceit to separate people from their heavenly Father. Jesus knew this, and wanted us to understand the tricks the devil might use so we could arm ourselves with knowledge. Some of his more common lies are “there is no God,” “God doesn’t care about you,” “the Bible cannot be trusted,” and “your good works will get you into heaven.”

Mark 5:7-8
Not everyone believes in demonic procession, but Jesus talked about it in the Bible on several occasions. Mark 5 tells the story of Jesus removing Satan’s evil spirits from a suffering man. Mark 5:7-8 says “[C]rying out with a loud voice, [the demoniac] said, ‘What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.’ For he had said to him, “’Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!’” This, again, shows us that Jesus has the ultimate authority over the devil and his group of angels. Jesus can cleanse us of evil spirits and feel rejuvenated once again.

Luke 10:17-19
Luke 10:17-19 says "The seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!' And He said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.'” The context of these words is the return of the 70 disciples that Jesus had sent out to evangelize and prepare His way to Jerusalem. The group was so impressed that Satan and his demons had bowed down to the name of Jesus, but Jesus already knew they were well protected. The fall of Satan that Jesus saw happened after Lucifer’s sin. In his pride, Lucifer had lifted himself up, but God had cast him down out of his original place in heaven. Jesus’ statement in Luke 10:18 speaks on the back story of Satan and the Lord’s defeat over the power of Satan.

Matthew 4:7
This piece of scripture says: “Jesus said to him, 'Again it is written, You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” In this situation, the devil was citing Psalm 91:11-12 to entice Jesus to jump off the roof of a temple to test God’s love for His Son. Jesus quickly fought back, but it this passage shows us that Satan does have power. If Satan can do terrible things to try and manipulate our Savior, we should never underestimate his power here on earth. He was able to twist scripture to be used for evil purposes, and it’s a major way that Satan attacks Christians even today. Christians must be equipped with God’s Word like Jesus was so they can stand strong against the devil.

Matthew 25:41
When Jesus sits on His thrown in Heaven, He will separate those who were true believers by those who were not. Matthew 25:41 says: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’” Those who did not follow Jesus will be sent to Satan’s kingdom, where they will suffer for eternity. It also shares with us that Satan has fellow fallen angels that work under him, committing to doing his evil wrongdoings.

Jesus was very clear on the evil power that Satan holds, and wanted to ensure that we as Christian understood everything we could about the fallen angel. The Bible is filled with information on Satan and how Jesus sees the enemy. The more knowledge we have on Satan, the easier it will be to fight and resist him and his temptations.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I told you Jesus said the devil was real and you continue to believe Jesus is a liar.

What’s interesting is that others, perhaps more willing to question can see that it’s not nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

Hell is hot an d permanent so you might want to repent before it's too late for you.

This is another subject which needs unpacking as well. You have a word and clearly many notions but as we will find they have no foundation in the Word of God.

You're not offending me at all. I feel sorry for you because you are not only spiritually blind, but on top of that you claim Jesus is a liar.

I think the questions will mount up and in the end your conduct will appear overwhelmed.

Go ahead, laugh it up while you can

6 Times Jesus Talked About Satan

Matthew 4:10
In Matthew 4:10 it states: “Then Jesus said to him, ‘Be gone, Satan! For it is written that you shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.’” This verse teaches us about the authority that Jesus has over the devil. During this time Satan was trying to switch Jesus to the dark side. Jesus had to pass the test that Adam failed in the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:16–17; 3:1–6). Jesus refused to believe the devil’s lies and instead obeyed His Father. Jesus was tempted but did not sin (Heb. 4:15). Satan has power, but Jesus has ultimate power over all creation. When Jesus said, “Be gone, Satan!” the devil had to obey him (Matt. 4:11). We can be confident in the midst of any trial that God is in control.

False accuser is not identified

John 8:44
Speaking to a group of Jews, Jesus says, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44). Satan is the “father of lies” in that he is the original liar. Satan told the first lie in recorded history to Eve, in the Garden of Eden. Lying is Satan’s primary weapon against God’s children. He uses the tactic of deceit to separate people from their heavenly Father. Jesus knew this, and wanted us to understand the tricks the devil might use so we could arm ourselves with knowledge. Some of his more common lies are “there is no God,” “God doesn’t care about you,” “the Bible cannot be trusted,” and “your good works will get you into heaven.”

Clearly has man as the sinner from the beginning! That was a really easy one to prove, you can do this yourself rather easily

Mark 5:7-8
Not everyone believes in demonic procession, but Jesus talked about it in the Bible on several occasions. Mark 5 tells the story of Jesus removing Satan’s evil spirits from a suffering man. Mark 5:7-8 says “[C]rying out with a loud voice, [the demoniac] said, ‘What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.’ For he had said to him, “’Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!’” This, again, shows us that Jesus has the ultimate authority over the devil and his group of angels. Jesus can cleanse us of evil spirits and feel rejuvenated once again.

Illnesses are often referred to as unclean as they did not know the medical terms you do today.

Luke 10:17-19
Luke 10:17-19 says "The seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!' And He said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.'” The context of these words is the return of the 70 disciples that Jesus had sent out to evangelize and prepare His way to Jerusalem. The group was so impressed that Satan and his demons had bowed down to the name of Jesus, but Jesus already knew they were well protected. The fall of Satan that Jesus saw happened after Lucifer’s sin. In his pride, Lucifer had lifted himself up, but God had cast him down out of his original place in heaven. Jesus’ statement in Luke 10:18 speaks on the back story of Satan and the Lord’s defeat over the power of Satan.

Do you know what a simile is Big Boy? Do you know how Luke using them in his writings? Bet you don't!

Here is a list

• “So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a hut in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city” (Isa. 1:8).
• “All we like sheep have gone astray” (Isa. 53:6).
• “For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap” (Mal. 3:2).
• “They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts” (Judges 6:5).
• “For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night” (1 Thessalonians 5:2).
• “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field” (Matthew 13:44).
• “His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow” (Matthew 28:3).
• “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness” (Matthew 23:27).
• “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old” (Matthew 13:52).
• “Like vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes, so is the sluggard to those who send him” (Proverbs 10:26).
• “A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting of silver” (Proverbs 25:11).

The word LIKE is the key!

Now go back to this record and tell me what was the adversary which fell LIKE lightening?

This will take more work - if you're having issues come back to me and I can show you!

Matthew 4:7
This piece of scripture says: “Jesus said to him, 'Again it is written, You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” In this situation, the devil was citing Psalm 91:11-12 to entice Jesus to jump off the roof of a temple to test God’s love for His Son. Jesus quickly fought back, but it this passage shows us that Satan does have power. If Satan can do terrible things to try and manipulate our Savior, we should never underestimate his power here on earth. He was able to twist scripture to be used for evil purposes, and it’s a major way that Satan attacks Christians even today. Christians must be equipped with God’s Word like Jesus was so they can stand strong against the devil.

Already referenced that one above...I wonder where you got this list from?

Matthew 25:41
When Jesus sits on His thrown in Heaven, He will separate those who were true believers by those who were not. Matthew 25:41 says: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’” Those who did not follow Jesus will be sent to Satan’s kingdom, where they will suffer for eternity. It also shares with us that Satan has fellow fallen angels that work under him, committing to doing his evil wrongdoings.

Jesus was very clear on the evil power that Satan holds, and wanted to ensure that we as Christian understood everything we could about the fallen angel. The Bible is filled with information on Satan and how Jesus sees the enemy. The more knowledge we have on Satan, the easier it will be to fight and resist him and his temptations.

False accuser and his messengers" - that’s right, all referring to people.

It might be more helpful to focus on one section at a time, though, as jumping between contexts can make it difficult to clearly understand how these terms are being used.

 

[Lambano]

"Now the works of the flesh are evident:..."

It's most unfortunate that Paul appropriated the Gnostic world-view of human flesh being intrinsically evil in his writings. The Jewish view of "flesh" as expressed in the Hebrew OT language had much more positive connotations. "I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekiel 36:26) That sounds like a good thing. How many neuroses and how much body shame have been caused by the Platonic-dualistic world-view that Paul brings into play here?

Do we really believe that our proclivity to sin is caused by our literal skin?

 

[Lambano]

But Paul, perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, began crying out in the Council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. - Acts 23:6-8

So, we've established that a part of the culture in which the NT was written, and in particular the world-view of some of the NT writers such as Paul, that culture believed in the existence of supernatural entities such as angels and spirits. The next logical question would be, did they believe angels and spirits were good or evil? All? Or just some?

 

[Lambano]

Think about it:

...

• We’re told about angels - their role as messengers, ministers, and their appearances throughout both Old and New Testaments.

But when it comes to “the devil” as a literal supernatural being, there’s no clear origin, no development, no consistent identity, just scattered references, often symbolic, and always open to interpretation.

Angels are a good comp. What are we REALLY told about angels? We don't know their origin. We know they deliver messages ("angelos" means "messenger") and generally run errands for God. And that's about it. No real character development. (And the character some sects have developed for Michael the Archangel is appalling.) Plus, we seem to conflate them with "the sons of God" in Job and Genesis 6, the Nephalim origin story.

Similarly, we know devils and "the Devil" are involved in temptation, mental illness, slander, accusation, deceit, and other obnoxious hobbies, and are generally considered to be our enemies. That's almost more than we know about angels.

 

[Lambano]

More questions to consider:

Does the Bible clearly describe the attributes of our mortal nature along with its lusts and desires? If such a being truly existed and played a central role in this struggle, why would it be hidden? What kind of God would conceal the enemy?

Still more questions to consider: What preconceptions about what the Bible is and "should be" are we bringing to the text, and how does that affect our interpretation?

Both sides of this discussion should ask themselves that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It's most unfortunate that Paul appropriated the Gnostic world-view of human flesh being intrinsically evil in his writings. The Jewish view of "flesh" as expressed in the Hebrew OT language had much more positive connotations. "I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekiel 36:26) That sounds like a good thing. How many neuroses and how much body shame have been caused by the Platonic-dualistic world-view that Paul brings into play here?

Do we really believe that our proclivity to sin is caused by our literal skin?

Not to sound oppositional but the OT is far more focused on the evils of the flesh.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9

Have you ever looked at that verse?

Who can know it Lambano? It's a valid question don't you think?

Jeremiah 17:10 gives the answer: "I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.

I think Paul's inspired view of flesh is accurate - in fact the Lord himself never once attributes anything at all to a supernatural being but states clearly:

Mark 7:20–23 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

Did you notice was he did there? it's easy to miss!

He tells us it begins with thoughts which lead to actions.

Wouldn't this section be perfect to talk about such a being as the one many here believe but no, he only ever attributes it to you and I.

These principles cannot be ignored. Jesus, Paul and Jeremiah are in complete unity on this matter.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Angels are a good comp. What are we REALLY told about angels? We don't know their origin. We know they deliver messages ("angelos" means "messenger") and generally run errands for God. And that's about it. No real character development. (And the character some sects have developed for Michael the Archangel is appalling.) Plus, we seem to conflate them with "the sons of God" in Job and Genesis 6, the Nephalim origin story.

Similarly, we know devils and "the Devil" are involved in temptation, mental illness, slander, accusation, deceit, and other obnoxious hobbies, and are generally considered to be our enemies. That's almost more than we know about angels.

It's remarkable how much Scripture tells us about angels, yet many overlook their involvement throughout nearly every page. While they’re sometimes hidden, their presence and ultimately God’s signature is woven all through the biblical record.

Let’s put this to the test.

I’ll start by pointing out the first mention of angels, and you can show me the first clear reference to this evil being. From there, we can continue by examining each subsequent mention of angels and how the contrast unfolds.

Here’s my prediction: by the time we reach the book of Job, it will become clear that there’s very little concrete or clear information about this creature. Meanwhile, I will have already established a detailed and consistent profile of the angels.

 

[Lambano]

And modern Judaism does NOT conceive of "Satan" as Christianity does. From Chabad's website:

• Unlike Christianity, Judaism doesn’t believe in the devil or that evil has any independent power whatsoever. Instead, the Hebrew word satan means one who turns people astray.... (In the examples of Adam and Eve, Abraham and Isaac, David and Bathsheba), among many more, the satan appears to those in the midst of existential or spiritual struggles and tries to lead them astray.
• However, it is essential to note that, according to Judaism, the satan is not an independent entity with its own agenda; rather, it is a G‑dly force that is deployed to seduce people to sin.
• Another way the Talmud describes the satan is as one’s yetzer haRa, the negative inclination—an internal counterbalance to one’s good inclination, both of which are under a person’s control. Rather than someone or something external to us, the satan, when understood this way, is part and parcel of our psycho-spiritual makeup.
• he obvious question is: Why? Why does the satan exist? Why would G‑d create and employ a force in the fabric of creation to lead us astray? ...G‑d is never absent from our affairs, and even people or circumstances that seem “bad” or “evil” issue forth from G‑d for a purpose—namely, the fulfillment of our ultimate potential. From this perspective, the satan does not lay traps for us to fall into; rather, it administers tests for us to overcome and learn from.

Interesting how the metanarrative has changed from what we see in the NT writings.

So, temporarily switching sides in this discussion (often a good practice)...

In this world-view, "Satan" or "The Devil" is a personification of the process of temptation. "Personification" is common literary technique, the most notable biblical example being the personification of God's חָכְמָה ( chochma, "Wisdom") in Proverbs 8:

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

So, using this Jewish perspective, in the Temptation narratives, "the Devil" is the personification of Jesus's own internal struggle with the temptation to abandon His calling for personal gain, or self-aggrandizement or for worldly power. His discussions with "the Devil" give us a glimpse into the internal workings of His mind.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Still more questions to consider: What preconceptions about what the Bible is and "should be" are we bringing to the text, and how does that affect our interpretation?

Both sides of this discussion should ask themselves that.

That’s quite an insightful question. As we’ve seen in this thread, there are individuals like @David Lamb, who seems to be senior in years. His approach has been to quote a verse and infer its meaning, a method I don’t think he would disagree with. However, from what I’ve observed, it appears he hasn’t studied the subject in depth for himself. As a result, his preconceptions may actually be misconceptions.

Then there's @Big Boy Johnson. He seems to be one of those believers who hasn’t yet developed a clear understanding of the topic. It appears this doctrine may have been something he was introduced to early on, perhaps without much personal investigation. Force fed.

Then there's you, @Lambano. You’ve been playing it safe, occasionally dropping in to check the direction of the thread and offering a reposte here and there, often, it seems, to test whether what I’m saying holds any weight. I actually appreciate your style. While you do have your own preconceptions, you don’t seem quick to nail your colors to the mast, and I respect that. The only question is whether you hold firm convictions or prefer to cast a wide net, gathering as much knowledge as possible.

Time will tell.

 

[Hiddenthings]

So, temporarily switching sides in this discussion (often a good practice)...

In this world-view, "Satan" or "The Devil" is a personification of the process of temptation. "Personification" is common literary technique, the most notable biblical example being the personification of God's חָכְמָה ( chochma, "Wisdom") in Proverbs 8:

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

So, using this Jewish perspective, in the Temptation narratives, "the Devil" is the personification of Jesus's own internal struggle with the temptation to abandon His calling for personal gain, or self-aggrandizement or for worldly power. His discussions with "the Devil" give us a glimpse into the internal workings of His mind.

You might say it fits the profile of a delirious man who hasn’t eaten for 40 days and is having his Sonship tested.

His baptism, receiving power, only to be driven by the Spirit of God (God) into the wilderness to be tested...let me ask you this.

Did Peter know? 1 Peter 4:1

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.

And yes, personification is an extremely important subject if you want to understand false accuser and adversary.

 

[Lambano]

So, using this Jewish perspective, in the Temptation narratives, "the Devil" is the personification of Jesus's own internal struggle with the temptation to abandon His calling for personal gain, or self-aggrandizement or for worldly power. His discussions with "the Devil" give us a glimpse into the internal workings of His mind.

Applying the same perspective: Demon possession is the personification of mental illness. As an example, let's look at Jesus's interaction with the Gerasene in Mark 5 and its synoptic parallel in Luke 8: This incident can be viewed as Jesus talking to (like a psychiatrist) and healing a very mentally ill young man. I'm not sure how you transfer schizophrenia or Dissociative Identity Disorder to a herd of pigs, but that's beside the point. As a rationalistic friend on another forum commented that in his view, healing schizophrenia or DID in one 5 minute session (and not covered by health insurance) is a far more impressive feat than simply wrestling a few (well, a legion of) demons to the mat. I almost have to agree with him.