PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[David in NJ]

Right. That occurs at the 6th seal not the 7th trumpets.

Can you find, in the OT, a prophecy of more then two Advents of MESSIAH

 

[The Light]

You make it up as you go.

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

Pretribs suggest that “keep thee from the hour of temptation” is referring to the catching away of the saints from the earth at the coming of Christ. However, there is not the slightest mention of the Lord’s appearing in the wording of this expression nor is there even a hint of a rapture of the saints.

Behold I come quickly.

In fact, there is also no mention or inference of an end-time 7-year tribulation in the verse.

Have you noticed there is no mention of Jesus changing water into wine in that verse either.

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

You logic is so flawed.

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You add that unto the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

There is no mention of a pretribulation rapture on any specific day followed by a 7 year tribulation, with Jesus changing water into wine, in the midst of a 3rd coming as we can see by the text.

Pretribulationalists render this promise irrelevant, meaningless and pointless, as none of the 7 churches went through your so-called end-time tribulation and none of them were raptured. In your rational, every single church in history apart from your supposed 7-year tribulation period will automatically be rewarded by not being on earth for this period (regardless of their faithfulness or unfaithfulness). That is ridiculous. In reality, according to your argument, the Philadelphian church was not rewarded.

From this I have to ask your qualified opinion.

Who are the foolish virgins?

 

[The Light]

There is a reason why you continually avoid. There is a reason why you have no rebuttal to it.

Deny, Deny, Deny.

Back on your game. The only game you have.

 

[The Light]

Can you find, in the OT, a prophecy of more then two Advents of MESSIAH

No, not a prophecy. Which is the prophecy of two Advents of Messiah?

 

[WPM]

Behold I come quickly.



Have you noticed there is no mention of Jesus changing water into wine in that verse either.


You logic is so flawed.


There is no mention of a pretribulation rapture on any specific day followed by a 7 year tribulation, with Jesus changing water into wine, in the midst of a 3rd coming as we can see by the text.


From this I have to ask your qualified opinion.

Who are the foolish virgins?

Once again, as is your pattern, you totally avoided every single argument. You have to! That's because your doctrine is an invented Jesuit myth.

 

[WPM]

Deny, Deny, Deny.

Back on your game. The only game you have.

LOL. You are simply exposing yourself and your faulty doctrine by your avoidance. This is the story of every single discussion with pretribs.

 

[WPM]

Behold I come quickly.



Have you noticed there is no mention of Jesus changing water into wine in that verse either.


You logic is so flawed.


There is no mention of a pretribulation rapture on any specific day followed by a 7 year tribulation, with Jesus changing water into wine, in the midst of a 3rd coming as we can see by the text.


From this I have to ask your qualified opinion.

Who are the foolish virgins?

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No their souls are not sleeping. Read the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-26. The implication is that there is some place where the souls of the wicked go, until the Great White Throne Judgment takes place.

No, you take a Parable where Jesus KNOWS THEIR HEARTS, and tells you what their hearts would say, you do realize that was a parable right? Jesus is God the Redeemer he knows every thought of their being. In Rev. 6 Seal #5 is Jesus telling you the thought of Martyrs who can not even be Martyrs unto the Rev. 8 events bring the DOTL, and only after the DOTL starts can or DOES the Anti-Christ go forth conquering. So, like all the Seals save Seal #7 which open the Trumpet Scrolls, the Seals are Jesus foretelling us about coming events.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you cannot produce a chapter and verse that your rapture occurs in?

You obviously didn't even read his post 138. He refers to the rapture there in Revelation 14:14-17 where it talks about the Son of Man reaping His harvest and in Revelation 19 where it talks about the bride being ready for the marriage of the Lamb. If you actually read his posts then you wouldn't ask questions that he already answered.

 

[David in NJ]

No, not a prophecy. Which is the prophecy of two Advents of Messiah?

Joseph

Please read the story of Joseph in Genesis

Rejoice in the Holy Scriptures of Truth for they Speak of Christ

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you take a Parable where Jesus KNOWS THEIR HEARTS, and tells you what their hearts would say, you do realize that was a parable right? Jesus is God the Redeemer he knows every thought of their being. In Rev. 6 Seal #5 is Jesus telling you the thought of Martyrs who can not even be Martyrs unto the Rev. 8 events bring the DOTL, and only after the DOTL starts can or DOES the Anti-Christ go forth conquering. So, like all the Seals save Seal #7 which open the Trumpet Scrolls, the Seals are Jesus foretelling us about coming events.

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. Jesus refers to real people and places there, which He never does in His parables. Soul sleep is a doctrine of demons.

 

[The Light]

You obviously didn't even read his post 138. He refers to the rapture there in Revelation 14:14-17 where it talks about the Son of Man reaping His harvest and in Revelation 19 where it talks about the bride being ready for the marriage of the Lamb. If you actually read his posts then you wouldn't ask questions that he already answered.

Correct I did not read his post. It was a simple question and I got a book in response that I have read in the past. I have wasted too much time as it is.

 

[Douggg]

No, you take a Parable where Jesus KNOWS THEIR HEARTS, and tells you what their hearts would say, you do realize that was a parable right?

Hi Ronald, we were discussing the concept of soul sleep of the wicked, legitimate or not. I don't think it is legitimate.

Let's look at Revelation 20:11-14. Verse 13 indicates currently there is a place called hell, a place of dead persons that have souls in it. So I think that is where the souls of the wicked are, their souls, not sleeping. What do you think ?

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Correct I did not read his post. It was a simple question and I got a book in response that I have read in the past. I have wasted too much time as it is.

A book? LOL. Hardly. Regardless, you should never ask that question again. You also should stop claiming that the church isn't referenced in Revelation 6-19 anymore because that is possibly the most ludicrous claim I've ever seen. And I know that's a typical pre-trib claim which is why pre-trib can't be taken seriously at all.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Hi Ronald, we were discussing the concept of soul sleep of the wicked, legitimate or not. I don't think it is legitimate.

Let's look at Revelation 20:11-14. Verse 13 indicates currently there is a place called hell, a place of dead persons that have souls in it. So I think that is where the souls of the wicked are, their souls, not sleeping. What do you think ?

No there is a place called Hades (The Grave) which people all too often translate to mean hell.

There is also a place called hell, I think currently its the core of our earth and one day this whole universe will be set on fire and will be hell, a time trap no demon/human spirit can escape from. Only the AC & False Prophet are cast ALIVE (Meaning no SOUL SLEEP) into hell, because we know Dan. 7:11 says the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and then cast into hellfire.

Death and Hades (The Grave) is cast into the Lake of Fire (Pur).

The AC and False Prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire 1000 years earlier.

Of course the soul sleeps, until Judgment. This is why there are two Resurrections, the Righteous over a period of 7 years, Pre Trib. Rapture until the 2nd coming, and the 2nd Resurrection happens 1000 years later on.

 

[David in NJ]

No there is a place called Hades (The Grave) which people all too often translate to mean hell.

There is also a place called hell, I think currently its the core of our earth and one day this whole universe will be set on fire and will be hell, a time trap no demon/human spirit can escape from. Only the AC & False Prophet are cast ALIVE (Meaning no SOUL SLEEP) into hell, because we know Dan. 7:11 says the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and then cast into hellfire.

Death and Hades (The Grave) is cast into the Lake of Fire (Pur).

The AC and False Prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire 1000 years earlier.

Of course the soul sleeps, until Judgment. This is why there are two Resurrections, the Righteous over a period of 7 years, Pre Trib. Rapture until the 2nd coming, and the 2nd Resurrection happens 1000 years later on.

There will be no rapture until the Resurrection takes place at His 2nd Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

This will not take 7 years but will be rapid = at His Coming = 1 Corinthians chapter 15

When the last soul is saved and secure in Christ, then the FATHER will tell the LORD Jesus Christ to Return with the Angels

 

[The Light]

A book? LOL. Hardly. Regardless, you should never ask that question again.

So what chapter and verse is WPM's rapture?

You also should stop claiming that the church isn't referenced in Revelation 6-19 anymore because that is possibly the most ludicrous claim I've ever seen.

FACT. The Church is not mentioned from Revelation 6-19. The saints that are mentioned sing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes across the earth. Today's Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

And I know that's a typical pre-trib claim which is why pre-trib can't be taken seriously at all.

Once two raptures come into play, every argument against a pretrib rapture goes up in smoke.

 

[WPM]

Correct I did not read his post. It was a simple question and I got a book in response that I have read in the past. I have wasted too much time as it is.

Lol

 

[WPM]

So what chapter and verse is WPM's rapture?


FACT. The Church is not mentioned from Revelation 6-19. The saints that are mentioned sing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes across the earth. Today's Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.


Once two raptures come into play, every argument against a pretrib rapture goes up in smoke.

Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 4?

 

[WPM]

Fake News Check

Pretrib has been totally debunked once again. The fake history presented in the video reference the early Church fathers has been debunked. The Pretrib advocate in the video has been debunked. This is another own goal for Pretrib.