Is it possible to lose salvation?

[amigo de christo]

God saves the same way with all of mankind.
Man cannot save himself apart from Grace.

If your teaching is Scripturally correct then all the Jews that died before Christ are lost.
They all died under the Mosaical law.
You teach no grace under the old covenant.
How can anyone go to heaven if Gods grace did not save them?

Moses is the beginning of the old covenant law.
Moses was saved by Gods grace.
Faith is what saved the Jews under the old law in the old covenant.
Since God required faith from the Jews it must be that Gods grace saved all of the old testament Jews who had faith in Him.

Whenever you read about faith there will always be Gods grace.
Faith by itself cannot save anyone!!! Only if Gods grace is given.

Paul teaches Jews under the old Mosaical law were saved by Grace through faith not by perfect law keeping. This does not cancel keeping the law if you lived under the old law. It means the law keeping itself could not merit salvation because the Jews were saved by Gods grace through faith.
Just as everyone is.
We today are under the new testament law of Christ, Galatians 6:2.
Are saved by grace through faith. But this does not mean the new law is not required.
In fact keeping the law is the only way to recieve Gods grace.
Jews had to obey Gods old testament law to be saved by grace but the law itself could not save.
The only way anyone could be saved by law keeping is one would have to live a perfect sinless life by keeping Gods law perfectly.
Jesus never violated the law of Moses. He kept the old law perfectly. That is why He was free from sin.
No man can accomplish this, therefore we need Gods mercy and grace to be saved.
No one in history has been given Gods grace that rebelled against obeying His law.
Again the law itself cannot save but since grace is conditional, the condition God has always given to receive His grace is keeping His commandments. Old law and New.
God knows we cannot keep His law perfectly. That is when Grace steps in and covers our sins.

Listen to Paul teach that all the old testament saints were saved by grace and faith,
Romans 4:16,
- Therefore it is of  faith that it might be by  grace to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed not to that only which is of the law but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham who is the father of us all

So, you are mistaken when you teach the old covenant was not grace based. That is unscriptual teaching.

Every covenant God made with man, man violated his covenant with God.
A covenant is a contract made between man and God.
The only way anyone could be saved is by Gods unmerited favor.(Grace)

Noah was saved by Grace. Every jew under the old law that died before Jesus was saved just as Noah by Gods grace through their obedient faith.
Genesis 6:8,
- but Noah found  grace in the eyes of the Lord


You must know the context to know what works Paul is discussing.
Works here is the works of the law of Moses.
No one is justified during the new testament dispensation from the works of the old law.
Why, Because the old law has been replaced with Christs new testament law.
This is the letter Romans. Romans is written to CHRISTIANS.
Christianity began when the old testament, old covenant, old law ENDED.
This is why Paul says not by works we obtain the righteousness of Jesus.

James teaching the works of the new testament law of Christ teaches these works which are the works in the gospel of Jesus Christ do justify.
James 2:24,
- ye see then how by that by works(new covenant, gospel) a man is justified and not by faith alone(apart from keeping new testament law, Galatians 6:2,
- bear ye one another's burdens and so fullfil(obey) the law of Christ (new testament law, Jesus' gospel)

Yes, Jesus dying for undeserving wicked sinners is definitely grace towards us.
But Jesus Himself taught He gives eternal life to those who believe who He is but also we must believe His word, which is His gospel.
John 5:24,
- verily I say unto you he that heareth(obeys) My word and believeth on Him that sent Me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life

So Gods grace is in His sacrifice but also His instruction in His gospel.

Gods grace is conditional on what He tells us to do in His word(gospel) if we do it.
The gospel teaches we must do Gods will to be saved.
To teach man does nothing is unscriptual teaching.

Acts 2:37,
-Now when they heard this they were pricked in their heart and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren what shall we do

Peter did not tell them what men teach today. He did not tell them there is nothing Jesus requires for them to do.

Acts 9:6,
- and Saul trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do,
and the Lord said unto him, Arise and go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou must do

When God tells you, you MUST do something. Can you not do it and be saved?

Acts 10:6,
- he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner whose house is by the sea side he shall tell thee what thou oughest to do

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out and said, Sirs what  must I  do to be saved

Did the Philippian Jailer have to do something?
Paul's response was not what men today teach.
He did not tell him, he was wrong, men do nothing Jesus requires nothing of man, Jesus does everything for you even the believing.

Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words did he testify and exhort saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation

No merit in salvation.
Works do not cancel out Gods grace.

And what does grace teach us . TO DENY ALL ungodliness and wordly lusts
Will anyone please remind me again OF WHY i see rainbow jesus , koran and budda kissing jesus .
And why on earth most all of christendom is now so in love with a love IT THINKS is of GOD
but is of THE WORLD and is leading them as one to merge right into that which is of anti christ . MAN its made the road
to GOD SO SO broad , a new sin added daily it seems . Even other religoins it says are on this road .
About the only thing that road of thier so called love does not seem to love
nor embrace , IS THE TRUTH , IS THE WORDS of GOD , of CHRIST . any word that exposes what they love most
IS a word they will and do reject . And what is it they love most . THEIR SIN .

 

[amigo de christo]

I think you're mistaken in some of what you wrote. The reasons as to why I've already extensively explained in this thread.

If you think i am mistaken by all means please show me the error .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen.

works do not Cancel Grace? hmm...:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace.​

But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​

(Romans 11:6 AV)​

Grace Through faith ( Ephesians 2:8:9... Titus, etc. ) is for God's Eternal Salvation!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

works (we all should (...v 10) do) merit "rewards" within God's Eternal Salvation (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV),
eh?:

Amen.

And now for a real simple question .
How does one know if the grace they beleive is grace is TRULY OF GOD
or was it satan tricking them into a false grace .
ANY grace that offers up A LIE that calls GOD A LIAR , IT AINT GRACE , NOR IS IT TRUTH
nor is it of GOD even if the devil calls it love .
SO i have one more quickie question for us all to ponder on until it becomes so darn
PLAIN this generation has fallen in love with a lie called love , ALARMS JUST RING RING RING
and we get up and do all to help this people .
HERE it is .

WHY o why are so many now in love with a lie . a lie that calls evil good , aka certain sins good
and calls truth , as being judgemntal and hateful .
WHY o why
are so many in love with a lie that has made the road to GOD so broad indeed under the guise that it is loving and is love .
ANYONE wanna try and even answer that . Interfaith is of anti christ . ITS KEY leaders HAVE DENIED HIM
THEY HAVE DENIED HIM and sold the false relgioins and sadly much of christendom a fat lie
THAT Implies Its not necessary to have had to BELEIVE ON JESUS as it hollers we gots good muslims
good peoples in all religoins who both know and serve GOD their own way .
SORRY DUDE . a LIE . ITS A LIE . THERE IS NONE who is GOOD but GOD
and as far as serving GOD there is only one TRUE WAY TO DO SO .
HE IS THE WAY , THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH . THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER and YE MUST BELEIVE ON HIM . i rest my case
INTEFAITH IS OF THE DEVIL and we need to flee it and support it IN NO WAY but rather expose it and preach JESUS NOW .

 

[nedsk]

Yes, walking with God is a choice.

I'm not sure what you mean by "works are needed, though. They don't have the power to save anyone, right? This is what Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 all say very explicitly.

I agree that my faith is completed through corresponding action, but when James wrote that faith without this action is "dead," he didn't mean non-existent, or has been destroyed. He explained that he meant by a "dead faith" a faith that is alone, incomplete and useless. Nowhere in the entire letter by James, though, do I find the explicit statement that one must do good works in order to be saved.

James does ask if faith alone can save anyone but, as I've explained, faith has no salvific power; it only puts a person in position to be saved. So, then, the person who's thinking faith is what saves them is mistaken. But so is the one who thinks that their works save them. Only the Savior saves (Ac. 4:12; 1 Ti. 2:5; Jn. 14:6).

Not by themselves and no more or less than faith by itself.

Yes I the position to be saved and how does one get I that position. BOTH faith AND works.

 

[Dave Mac]

I sure do not think God would of told us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling if we could not loose our salvation. If we could not loose our salvation we would have no need to fear and tremble IMO

OSAS says to me get comfortable take it easy, you got this, you can loose, nothing fear and tremble about. You do not have to endure to the end.

Jesus and Jesus alone paid the price for our sins, we can do nothing to earn our way to heaven, but we sure can show how much we appreciate his sacrifice by enduring to the end, don't think those who take it from granted like OSAS suggest are going to endure to the end, hope I am wrong. We have responsibilty to show our Love and thankfulness to Jesus, we are in a battlefield while in the is earthly tent, never get comfortable as OSAS silently suggest.

 

[nedsk]

For by grace I have been saved by faith. Not if myself not if worjs

If it is grace it is no longer if works.

Now by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy

When you add works to grace you teach works

Works plus grace equals works

Your opening statement is full of pride

I rest my case again you teach works everyone sees it. I can just pray one day you see it

You are like the Jews in the desert. Yes saved by faith. That's not the same as faith alone.

I like how you think resting your case is supposed to mean anything to me

 

[amigo de christo]

You are like the Jews in the desert. Yes saved by faith. That's not the same as faith alone.

I like how you think resting your case is supposed to mean anything to me

And now for a real simple question .
How does one know if the grace they beleive is grace is TRULY OF GOD
or was it satan tricking them into a false grace .
ANY grace that offers up A LIE that calls GOD A LIAR , IT AINT GRACE , NOR IS IT TRUTH
nor is it of GOD even if the devil calls it love .
SO i have one more quickie question for us all to ponder on until it becomes so darn
PLAIN this generation has fallen in love with a lie called love , ALARMS JUST RING RING RING
and we get up and do all to help this people .
HERE it is .

WHY o why are so many now in love with a lie . a lie that calls evil good , aka certain sins good
and calls truth , as being judgemntal and hateful .
WHY o why
are so many in love with a lie that has made the road to GOD so broad indeed under the guise that it is loving and is love .
ANYONE wanna try and even answer that . Interfaith is of anti christ . ITS KEY leaders HAVE DENIED HIM
THEY HAVE DENIED HIM and sold the false relgioins and sadly much of christendom a fat lie
THAT Implies Its not necessary to have had to BELEIVE ON JESUS as it hollers we gots good muslims
good peoples in all religoins who both know and serve GOD their own way .
SORRY DUDE . a LIE . ITS A LIE . THERE IS NONE who is GOOD but GOD
and as far as serving GOD there is only one TRUE WAY TO DO SO .
HE IS THE WAY , THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH . THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER and YE MUST BELEIVE ON HIM . i rest my case
INTEFAITH IS OF THE DEVIL and we need to flee it and support it IN NO WAY but rather expose it and preach JESUS NOW .

 

[amigo de christo]

You are like the Jews in the desert. Yes saved by faith. That's not the same as faith alone.

I like how you think resting your case is supposed to mean anything to me

Folks act like paul and james contradicted each other . BUT OH NO they did not .
The only faith that saves BELEIVES what GOD has spoken .
not what men who try to twist it say .
James KNEW dead faith is DEAD
AND SO DID paul . HOW so
Watch this .
IF any provides Not for his own , A DOING action a works , Specially for those of his own household ................
wait for it .............................
wait ............
HE HAS DENIED THE FAITH . DEAD FAITH baby .
To DENY JESUS is deadly indeed only most seem to not understand
IF THEY DENY also HIS Words THEY HAVE DENIED HIM if even their lips say His name .
NOW ITS TRUE we are saved BY FAITH .
as clearly seen with the man dying on the cross next to JESUS .
BUT its very clear if that FAITH of theirs Aint producing good works but rather evil works
YEAH ITS DEAD baby . they lippers just as i once was .

 

[amigo de christo]

You are like the Jews in the desert. Yes saved by faith. That's not the same as faith alone.

I like how you think resting your case is supposed to mean anything to me

For it is HE who works in you that which is well pleasing IN HIS SIGHT .
True it is that if a man cometh to Christ on his death bed
Beleiving on HIM , faith in HIM they are saved .
But if one so called cometh and lips His name and says i do beleive
and yet day in and day out they walk in sins
their works be abominable as they hold rainbows or honor sins
Or if they even dare , dare to lip His NAME and say I beleive
BUT THEN DO as did ophrah and many and imply OH but its not necesarry for you . THEY DO THE WORK OF ANTI CHRIST
they just use his name TO DO IT .

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If you think i am mistaken by all means please show me the error

You'll get nothing but subterfuge and chicanery as the answer to that question

 

[Kokyu]

God saves the same way with all of mankind.
Man cannot save himself apart from Grace.

Under the Old Covenant, God required animal sacrifice for sin as a sort of stop-gap measure until Christ's atonement for all sin at Calvary. See Hebrews 7-10:22. So, as I said, there was no grace of the New Covenant kind available to those under the Old Covenant.

If your teaching is Scripturally correct then all the Jews that died before Christ are lost.
They all died under the Mosaical law.
You teach no grace under the old covenant.
How can anyone go to heaven if Gods grace did not save them?

It's not "my teaching," it's what Scripture says. Again, read Hebrews 7-10:22. Or Galatians 3-5.

In the quotation above, you're asserting a Strawman of what I wrote. It doesn't follow - especially in view of the sacrifices for sin God instituted under the Old Covenant - that the divine grace of the New Covenant not being extended to Old Covenant saints meant they were damned.

Moses is the beginning of the old covenant law.
Moses was saved by Gods grace.
Faith is what saved the Jews under the old law in the old covenant.
Since God required faith from the Jews it must be that Gods grace saved all of the old testament Jews who had faith in Him.

Well, if this were true, why did Jesus have to die? If salvation was possible without his sacrifice at Calvary, then his sacrifice was unnecessary.

Scripture is very clear that salvation is in, and through, only one Person: Jesus Christ. See John 14:16, Acts 4:12 and 1 Timothy 2:5. And his salvation is obtained by only one means. See Romans 10:9-10.

Paul teaches Jews under the old Mosaical law were saved by Grace through faith not by perfect law keeping. This does not cancel keeping the law if you lived under the old law. It means the law keeping itself could not merit salvation because the Jews were saved by Gods grace through faith.
Just as everyone is.

No, this is not in accord with what Scripture teaches. Paul nowhere says what you say in the quotation above that he says. He is very clear that salvation in the New Covenant sense is only in, and through, Jesus Christ. I've already posted many verses/passages in this thread that show this.

We today are under the new testament law of Christ, Galatians 6:2.

And what is the "law of Christ"? Paul explains:

Galatians 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Galatians 5:14
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Galatians 5:18
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Law of Christ is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It is the "law" that commands us to be constantly under the control of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, who leads, strengthens, teaches, convicts, comforts and changes the person in whom he dwells, causing us to be holy conduits of God's love to the world around us.

Romans 6:13
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Romans 6:19
19 ... just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 12:1
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

James 4:7
7 Submit therefore to God...

James 4:10
10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord...

And so on. Walking in the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9), the Holy Spirit, all day, every day, your will submitted to His will and way is the "Law of Christ." Are you obeying this "law"?

Are saved by grace through faith. But this does not mean the new law is not required.
In fact keeping the law is the only way to recieve Gods grace.

You're not all wrong, here - in a sense. Yes, we are saved solely by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) and this installs us "in Christ" as "new creatures" who are "temples" of the Holy Spirit (2 Co. 5:17; 1 Co. 6:19-20). Life in the Spirit is the new "law" for the born-again believer and so long as they live in accord with this "law," they will enter ever-more deeply into fellowship with God. But being made a "temple" of the Holy Spirit, being one who has been bought with a price and who is, therefore, no longer their own (1 Co. 6:19-20), is a work of God in salvation, entirely apart from a person's works (Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Tit. 3:5).

Jews had to obey Gods old testament law to be saved by grace but the law itself could not save.
The only way anyone could be saved by law keeping is one would have to live a perfect sinless life by keeping Gods law perfectly.
Jesus never violated the law of Moses. He kept the old law perfectly. That is why He was free from sin.

You're quite right that no one can perfectly keep God's law as laid out in the Mosaic Law of the OT.

But Jesus was not perfect because he kept this OT law perfectly. He was perfect and so was able to keep the law perfectly.

 

[Kokyu]

No man can accomplish this, therefore we need Gods mercy and grace to be saved.
No one in history has been given Gods grace that rebelled against obeying His law.
Again the law itself cannot save but since grace is conditional, the condition God has always given to receive His grace is keeping His commandments. Old law and New.
God knows we cannot keep His law perfectly. That is when Grace steps in and covers our sins.

I'm afraid this is a very contradictory set of statements.

You say no man can obey God's law perfectly as Jesus did, which is true. And you say we need God's grace, as a result, which is also true. But our disobeying God's law is always an expression of rebellion toward God which you say keeps us from being given God's grace. How, then, does anyone obtain God's grace? We can't live as we ought in order to be given God's grace so how does grace step in and cover our sins? It can't until we live perfectly which you've correctly pointed out no one except Christ can do. So, what you're saying above, then, is that no one can do what is necessary to be given God's grace (obey perfectly) and so no one can be saved. You seem to think at the same time that we can obtain God's grace, though, which contradicts what you've said.

Listen to Paul teach that all the old testament saints were saved by grace and faith,
Romans 4:16,
- Therefore it is of  faith that it might be by  grace to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed not to that only which is of the law but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham who is the father of us all

So, you are mistaken when you teach the old covenant was not grace based. That is unscriptual teaching.

No, you have just badly misunderstood what I wrote, making assumptions from my statements that are unwarranted.

As for Romans 4:16, you need to understand it in light of what has been said before it, in particular the following:

Romans 4:1-5
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Verse 16 is speaking of Abraham who was made a promise by God centuries before Moses was given the Law. Because Abraham believed God's promise to him, his faith was counted by God as righteousness. Abraham, then, was able to be righteous and to please God entirely apart from the Law of Moses - just as those under the New Covenant of life in Christ Jesus must do. We are to "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Co. 5:7) in the truth and promises of God to us in Christ Jesus and, when we do, God "counts it as righteousness."

Every covenant God made with man, man violated his covenant with God.
A covenant is a contract made between man and God.

A divine covenant is much more than a mere "contract."

The only way anyone could be saved is by Gods unmerited favor.(Grace)

But you wrote:

"No one in history has been given Gods grace that rebelled against obeying His law."

"God knows we cannot keep His law perfectly. That is when Grace steps in and covers our sins."

"... the condition God has always given to receive His grace is keeping His commandments. Old law and New."

Do you not see the impossible situation you've formed in these statements? Essentially, you've set up a catch-22 such that no one can obtain God's saving grace:

- We must be obey God or we can't obtain His saving grace.
- None of us can obey God.
- Therefore, none of us can obtain His saving grace.

This makes what you wrote in quotation above impossible and contradictory. There is no such thing as unmerited grace if we can only obtain it by being obedient to God's law. But by doing so, we merit God's grace which you say is unmerited! Don't you see the problems in what you're saying?

Noah was saved by Grace. Every jew under the old law that died before Jesus was saved just as Noah by Gods grace through their obedient faith.
Genesis 6:8,
- but Noah found  grace in the eyes of the Lord

Noah was saved from the destruction of the Flood, but he was not, and could not be, saved in the post-Calvary, born again sense. Such a thing was only possible after Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

 

[Kokyu]

You must know the context to know what works Paul is discussing.
Works here is the works of the law of Moses.
No one is justified during the new testament dispensation from the works of the old law.
Why, Because the old law has been replaced with Christs new testament law.
This is the letter Romans. Romans is written to CHRISTIANS.
Christianity began when the old testament, old covenant, old law ENDED.
This is why Paul says not by works we obtain the righteousness of Jesus.

I'm sorry, but I don't have any idea what all this has to do with what I wrote...

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out and said, Sirs what  must I  do to be saved

Did the Philippian Jailer have to do something?
Paul's response was not what men today teach.
He did not tell him, he was wrong, men do nothing Jesus requires nothing of man, Jesus does everything for you even the believing.

Acts 16:29-31
29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It is obvious that the jailer would have to believe the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ in order to be saved by Jesus, but it is only by so believing and confessing this belief (to God) that a person is saved. See Romans 10:9-10.

 

[Kokyu]

So JESUS was mistaken when HE too warned even his own
but he who endures TO THE END the same shall be saved .

No. But on what basis does anyone "endure to the end"? On the basis of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who imparts to the lost the saving life and persevering power of Jesus Christ. See Romans 8:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 4:13, Ephesians 3:16; 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit who enables a person to "endure to the end."

Or perhaps paul was wrong
when he wrote and told the same thing to the church in rome .

Do you think so? I hope not.

Or how about what he wrote in hebrews
FOR WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST if we HOLD our confidence
FIRM TO THE END baby .

Baby? Um... I'm not your baby.

And we "hold our confidence firm" because of what? Our own determined self-effort? No. See above. God saves us and He keeps us. See Philippians 1:6, John 10:28-29 and Hebrews 13:5.

So tell me again
where it is WRONG to tell the church YE MUST Continue in HIM to the end .

Tell you again? Where have I told you this before? I think you're losing track of who you're writing to...

We been duped . that is my point .

Uh, speak for yourself, there, fellow.

When even men who TRUST IN CHRIST and TRUST IN HIS WORDS
are told YE DONT have faith in HIM just cause WE PREACH HIS OWN WORDS
MY oh my SOMETHING has went wrong .

??? Okay...

SEEMS to me that many have put their FAITH and TRUST , their hope
INTO DOCTRINES of men . And that friend is not good .
As for me , I TRUST CHRIST , HIS words and all His warnings too .

Uh huh.