The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

[Davidpt]

AI can be useful for some things, but he seems to think that whatever feedback he gets from ChatGPT is true, which is not the case. It is AI, so it just returns information that it finds on the Internet which may or may not be true.

You seem to think you can speak for me even though you are not even me.

So now I think whatever feedback I get from chatgpt is true, when I don't even remotely think that is the case every single time? I'm basically using chatgpt as a research tool, except it has an added feature, it can actually reason with you via these things. I know that for a fact since I have submitted things to it where it entirely disagreed with what I submitted, where I then submitted some of my arguments as to why I am correct but it isn't. It then actually considered my arguments and then went in an entirely different direction, where it was eventually admitting that my arguments are supporting what I was alleging.

Initially it was basing it's opinions on what all it gleaned from the web. But once I started providing arguments, it then went into it's own thinking rather than countering my arguments via what it was gleaning from the web. It even said my arguments were compelling and convincing. Imagine an Amil saying that to me? Well it aint gonna happen ever. Meaning in regards to Premil vs Amil. Therefore, it's refreshing to know that at least something finds my arguments compelling and convincing.

 

[WPM]

You seem to think you can speak for me even though you are not even me.

So now I think whatever feedback I get from chatgpt is true, when I don't even remotely think that is the case every single time? I'm basically using chatgpt as a research tool, except it has an added feature, it can actually reason with you via these things. I know that for a fact since I have submitted things to it where it entirely disagreed with what I submitted, where I then submitted some of my arguments as to why I am correct but it isn't. It then actually considered my arguments and then went in an entirely different direction, where it was eventually admitting that my arguments are supporting what I was alleging.

Initially it was basing it's opinions on what all it gleaned from the web. But once I started providing arguments, it then went into it's own thinking rather than countering my arguments via what it was gleaning from the web. It even said my arguments were compelling and convincing. Imagine an Amil saying that to me? Well it aint gonna happen ever. Meaning in regards to Premil vs Amil. Therefore, it's refreshing to know that at least something finds my arguments compelling and convincing.

But this is another reason why we cannot trust it. Because there's no absolutes with it. It is all back and forth with a computer.

It cannot truly reason. Only a human can do that. A human has ultimately fed this information to a website or websites. They're taking that from a website or websites.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem to think you can speak for me even though you are not even me.

I said how it seems to me, so it was just an opinion and not an attempt to speak for you.

So now I think whatever feedback I get from chatgpt is true, when I don't even remotely think that is the case every single time? I'm basically using chatgpt as a research tool, except it has an added feature, it can actually reason with you via these things. I know that for a fact since I have submitted things to it where it entirely disagreed with what I submitted, where I then submitted some of my arguments as to why I am correct but it isn't. It then actually considered my arguments and then went in an entirely different direction, where it was eventually admitting that my arguments are supporting what I was alleging.

Initially it was basing it's opinions on what all it gleaned from the web. But once I started providing arguments, it then went into it's own thinking rather than countering my arguments via what it was gleaning from the web. It even said my arguments were compelling and convincing. Imagine an Amil saying that to me? Well it aint gonna happen ever. Meaning in regards to Premil vs Amil. Therefore, it's refreshing to know that at least something finds my arguments compelling and convincing.

If you find ChatGPT to be useful, so be it. I don't find it to be of any use in debates like we have on this forum and I certainly am not going to be convinced by any arguments that are based on info retrieved by ChatGPT. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether AI is useful in these discussions. I don't believe so.

 

[WPM]

Early Amils and Chiliasts believed Satan would be destroyed at the Second Advent

Barnabus Palestine (AD 70-120)

It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]. The Lord is near, and His reward (Chapter XXI).​

The Ascension of Isaiah Palestine (late 1st century AD to 2nd half of the 2nd century AD)

​

And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed] (Chapter 4:14-15).​

The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Israel, (107)

The writer depicts Old Testament Judah looking forward and testifying of the resurrection of God’s people. He locates this at the second coming of Christ and links it with the destruction of Satan and the wicked.

And after these things shall Abraham and Isaac and Jacob arise unto life, and I and my brethren will be chiefs, even your sceptre in Israel: Levi first, I the second, Joseph third, Benjamin fourth, Simeon fifth, Issachar sixth, and so all in order. And the Lord blessed Levi; the Angel of the Presence, me; the powers of glory, Simeon; the heaven, Reuben; the earth, Issachar; the sea, Zebulun; the mountains, Joseph; the tabernacle, Benjamin; the lights of heaven, Dan; the fatness of earth, Naphtali; the sun, Gad; the olive, Asher: and there shall be one people of the Lord, and one tongue; and there shall no more be a spirit of deceit of Beliar, for he shall be cast into the fire for ever. And they who have died in grief shall arise in joy, and they who have lived in poverty for the Lord’s sake shall be made rich, and they who have been in want shall be filled, and they who have been weak shall be made strong, and they who have been put to death for the Lord’s sake shall awake in life. And the harts of Jacob shall run in joyfulness, and the eagles of Israel shall fly in gladness; but the ungodly shall lament, and sinners all weep, and all the people shall glorify the Lord for ever (Chapter 4:25).​

Justin Martyr Asia Minor (now Turkey) (AD 100-166)

It was prophesied that, after the ascent of Christ to heaven, He would deliver us from error and give us gifts. The words are these: 'He ascended up on high; He led captivity captive; He gave gifts to men.' Accordingly, we who have received gifts from Christ, who has ascended up on high, prove from the words of prophecy that you, 'the wise in yourselves, and the men of understanding in your own eyes,' are foolish, and honour God and His Christ by lip only. But we, who are instructed in the whole truth, honour Them both in acts, and in knowledge, and in heart, even unto death. But you hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).​

​

Justin believed that Satan would be destroyed at the Second Coming: [T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XLV).​

​

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).​

​

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born (1st Apology of Justin, Chapter 28).​

Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France), (AD 150)

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.)​

​

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter 10:1).​

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236)

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chapter 7:22).​

​

And multitudes of men will run from the east even to the west, and from the north even to the sea, saying, Where is Christ here? Where is Christ there? … For these things must first be; and thus the son of perdition — that is to say, the devil— must be seen … For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … Then shall the son of perdition be brought forward, to wit, the accuser, with his demons and with his servants, by angels stern and inexorable. And they shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness … They shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and there shall be none to help them or to pity them, because they repented not, neither turned aside from the wicked way. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment with the demons and the accuser (On the End of the World, 9:39-40).​

​

You have heard of the ceaseless joy, you have heard of the immoveable kingdom, you have heard of the feast of blessings without end. Learn now, then, also the address of anguish with which the just Judge and the benignant God shall speak to those on the left hand in unmeasured anger and wrath, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... you vexed me, and set me at nought with your wicked words, and opened the door to the passions. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I know you not, I recognise you not: you made yourselves the workmen of another lord — namely, the devil. With him inherit the darkness, and the fire that is not quenched, and the worm that sleeps not, and the gnashing of teeth (On the End of the World, Chapter 45).​

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[Davidpt]

​

And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed] (Chapter 4:14-15).​

Why are you bringing this up? That is not involving anyone's interpretation of anything as far as I can tell.. IOW, assuming one takes any of that to be holy writ, they still have to interpret it themselves.

 

[Davidpt]

Early Amils and Chiliasts believed Satan would be destroyed at Second Advent

Barnabus Palestine (AD 70-120)

It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]. The Lord is near, and His reward (Chapter XXI).​

The Ascension of Isaiah Palestine (late 1st century AD to 2nd half of the 2nd century AD)

​

And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed] (Chapter 4:14-15).​

The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Israel, (107)

The writer depicts Old Testament Judah looking forward and testifying of the resurrection of God’s people. He locates this at the second coming of Christ and links it with the destruction of Satan and the wicked.

And after these things shall Abraham and Isaac and Jacob arise unto life, and I and my brethren will be chiefs, even your sceptre in Israel: Levi first, I the second, Joseph third, Benjamin fourth, Simeon fifth, Issachar sixth, and so all in order. And the Lord blessed Levi; the Angel of the Presence, me; the powers of glory, Simeon; the heaven, Reuben; the earth, Issachar; the sea, Zebulun; the mountains, Joseph; the tabernacle, Benjamin; the lights of heaven, Dan; the fatness of earth, Naphtali; the sun, Gad; the olive, Asher: and there shall be one people of the Lord, and one tongue; and there shall no more be a spirit of deceit of Beliar, for he shall be cast into the fire for ever. And they who have died in grief shall arise in joy, and they who have lived in poverty for the Lord’s sake shall be made rich, and they who have been in want shall be filled, and they who have been weak shall be made strong, and they who have been put to death for the Lord’s sake shall awake in life. And the harts of Jacob shall run in joyfulness, and the eagles of Israel shall fly in gladness; but the ungodly shall lament, and sinners all weep, and all the people shall glorify the Lord for ever (Chapter 4:25).​

Justin Martyr Asia Minor (now Turkey) (AD 100-166)

It was prophesied that, after the ascent of Christ to heaven, He would deliver us from error and give us gifts. The words are these: 'He ascended up on high; He led captivity captive; He gave gifts to men.' Accordingly, we who have received gifts from Christ, who has ascended up on high, prove from the words of prophecy that you, 'the wise in yourselves, and the men of understanding in your own eyes,' are foolish, and honour God and His Christ by lip only. But we, who are instructed in the whole truth, honour Them both in acts, and in knowledge, and in heart, even unto death. But you hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).​

​

Justin believed that Satan would be destroyed at the Second Coming: [T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XLV).​

​

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).​

​

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born (1st Apology of Justin, Chapter 28).​

Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France), (AD 150)

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.)​

​

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter 10:1).​

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236)

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chapter 7:22).​

​

And multitudes of men will run from the east even to the west, and from the north even to the sea, saying, Where is Christ here? Where is Christ there? … For these things must first be; and thus the son of perdition — that is to say, the devil— must be seen … For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … Then shall the son of perdition be brought forward, to wit, the accuser, with his demons and with his servants, by angels stern and inexorable. And they shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness … They shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and there shall be none to help them or to pity them, because they repented not, neither turned aside from the wicked way. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment with the demons and the accuser (On the End of the World, 9:39-40).​

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BTW, it would be nice, but not that I think you are misquoting anyone, to also provide the links to where those quotes can be found.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why are you bringing this up? That is not involving anyone's interpretation of anything as far as I can tell.. IOW, assuming one takes any of that to be holy writ, they still have to interpret it themselves.

Is that your only takeaway from that post? Do you have any thoughts about the point being made in that post? Do you agree or disagree with it?

Yes, you're right that his statement has to be interpreted, but I'm not sure what else he could've been talking about than Satan and his armies of angels and followers being cast into the lake of fire when Jesus comes.

The name "Beliar" is a variant of "Belial", which I believe is a name for Satan. Christ is the leader of righteousness and Satan is the leader of unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

So, the statement "the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies." makes me think of Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10-15. Yes, I understand that requires an interpretation of what he said, but I think it was worth including.

 

[WPM]

BTW, it would be nice, but not that I think you are misquoting anyone, to also provide the links to where those quotes can be found.

Copy in quotes to Google and you should be taken to the manuscripts.

 

[WPM]

Cyprian, Carthage, North Africa, (AD 200-258)

Oh, what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognise the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! What will be the glory and how great the joy to be admitted to see God, to be honoured to receive with Christ, thy Lord God, the joy of eternal salvation and light-to greet Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the patriarchs, and prophets, and apostles, and martyrs-to rejoice with the righteous and the friends of God in the kingdom of heaven, with the pleasure of immortality given to us-to receive there what neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man! For the apostle announces that we shall receive greater things than anything that we here either do or suffer, saying, "The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come hereafter which shall be revealed in us." When that revelation shall come, when that glory of God shall shine upon us, we shall be as happy and joyful, honoured with the condescension of God, as they will remain guilty and wretched, who, either as deserters from God or rebels against Him, have done the will of the devil, so that it is necessary for them to be tormented with the devil himself in unquenchable fire (Epistle 55, Chapter 10).​

Commodianus, Africa (wrote between AD 251 and 258)

The Almighty Christ descends to His elect … The creation rejoices to see the heavenly people. Here, however, they hasten to defend the captive matron. But the wicked king who possesses her, when he hears, flies into the parts of the north, and collects all his followers. Moreover, when the tyrant shall dash himself against the army of God, his soldiery are overthrown by the celestial terror; the false prophet himself is seized with the wicked one, by the decree of the Lord; they are handed over alive to Gehenna (The Instructor, Chapter (42) – Of the Hidden and Holy People of the Almighty Christ, the Living God).​

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, (Syria?) (Before AD 325)

Through the abounding of iniquity the love of many shall wax cold. For men shall hate, and persecute, and betray one another. And then shall appear the deceiver of the world, the enemy of the truth, the prince of lies, whom the Lord Jesus "shall destroy with the Spirit of His mouth,” who takes away the wicked with His lips; and many shall be offended at Him. But they that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and afterwards shall be the voice of a trumpet by the archangel; and in that interval shall be the revival of those that were asleep. And then shall the Lord come, and all the saints with Him, with a great concussion above the clouds, with the angels of His power, in the throne of His kingdom, to condemn the devil, the deceiver of the world, and to render to every one according to his deeds. “Then shall the wicked go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous shall go into life eternal,” to inherit those things "which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man, such things as God hath prepared for them that love Him" (Book 7, Chapter 32).​

Ephrem of Syria (AD 306-373)

In these three years and a half … in the time of the very fierce dragon … Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord; and indeed the unjust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil, and, as God beholds the human race in danger and being tossed about by the breath of the horrible dragon (On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World, Section 8 and 9).​

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Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever (On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World, Section 10).​

John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, Turkey, (AD 349–407)

Chrysostom quotes 1 Corinthians 15:23-24: “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” But what “rule,” then doth he here say, that Christ “putteth down?” … What rule then? That of the devils, concerning which he saith, “Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness:” For now it is not as yet “put down” perfectly, they working in many places, but then shall they cease (Homily XXXIX).​

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Since then in the last day the enemies of God shall be destroyed, together with death and the devil and the evil spirits, let us not be dejected at the prosperity of the enemies of God. For the enemies of the Lord in the moment of their glory and exaltation fail; “yea, like smoke have they failed away” [13.]​

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“because thou hast heard that He will abolish all rule, and authority and power,” to wit, the devil, and the bands of demons, (many as there are,) and the multitudes of unbelievers, and the tyranny of death, and all evils (Homily XXXIX).​

Jerome Working from Rome, Italy (AD 331-420)

… when the thousand years are finished he is loosed, so the number of the perfect saints being completed, in whom there is the glory of virginity in body and mind, by the approaching advent of the kingdom of the hateful one, many, seduced by that love of earthly things, shall be overthrown, and together with him shall enter the lake of fire (Commentary of Victorinus)​

Augustine (Hippo Regius, Numidia (now Algeria) (AD 354-430)

After this mention of the closing persecution, he summarily indicates all that the devil, and the city of which he is the prince, shall suffer in the last judgment. For he says, “And the devil who seduced them is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, in which are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (The City of God, Book 20, Chapter 14).​

 

[Taken]

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.


Premillennialism is the belief that after a period of severe tribulation of the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ will visibly and bodily return to earth (His Second Coming/Advent or Parousia) and will then rule and reign on the earth for a period of one thousand years (millennium) of peace and prosperity.

OP - @WPM
@Spiritual Israelite

Aside from OP’s irrelevant long list of dead mens personal Opinions…
Do YOU Disagree with the meaning of Premillennialism ?

If so… specifically WHAT points is YOUR disagreement?

 

[WPM]

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.


Premillennialism is the belief that after a period of severe tribulation of the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ will visibly and bodily return to earth (His Second Coming/Advent or Parousia) and will then rule and reign on the earth for a period of one thousand years (millennium) of peace and prosperity.

OP - @WPM
@Spiritual Israelite

Aside from OP’s irrelevant long list of dead mens personal Opinions…
Do YOU Disagree with the meaning of Premillennialism ?

If so… specifically WHAT points is YOUR disagreement?

Premillennialism is indeed a complex multi-faceted belief system. It is complicated in its detail, and controversial (at times) in some of its proposals. While there are variations and extremes within the doctrine, there are broad fundamentals in Premillennialism that can be found right across the board.

• Premils believe that Satan will be bound at the second coming and will be placed in a literal physical pit for 1,000 years. He will only be destroyed after a future 1,000 years/Satan’s little season.
• Premillennialists of all shades believe that a significant number of mortal humans survive the Lord’s return and join the glorified saints in populating a millennial earth. Who this supposed company is that is clearly too righteous to be destroyed, yet too wicked to be rescued, is not always obvious. It varies from group to group within the Millennialist camp. They hold that the millennial inhabitants include millions of unregenerate rebels.
• They believe that Christ does not assume David’s throne and his Messianic authority until the second coming.
• They believe that our Lord will reign over His enemies for the millennial period with a rod of iron from the city of Jerusalem.
• They believe the bondage of corruption continues to blight their future millennial earth. They see sin and sinners, decay and disease, crying and dying, war and terror, continuing unabated after Christ’s coming.
• They expect an earthly millennial where its inhabitants continue to gratify their fleshly desires in earthly pleasures, which involves the widespread enjoyment of that which nourishes or delights the body. They believe that the mortal millennial inhabitants continue to eat, drink, marry and have sexual relations. As a result, they produce offspring who enjoy uniquely long life-expectancies. They see this as a time of abundant fertility for nature, beyond anything that is possible today. The inheritors of this age then partake of the bountiful provision with perpetual feasting.
• They believe that this future earth is filled with countless unregenerate mortal rebels who end up turning on Christ after (amazingly) living under His righteous kingship for a thousand years. They hold that there will possibly be billions of religious phonies (as the sand of the sea) that turn on Christ and surround Him and His people at the end of this millennium.
• They believe in two future resurrection days and two future resurrection days. The righteous are said to be judged at Christ’s return, the wicked are judged 1000 years+ later at the great white throne.
• Premillennialists of all shapes and sizes tend to distinguish between God’s dealings with Israel and the New Testament Church, this is especially the case in Dispensational circles. They believe that Israel still holds a favored place in the heart of God and that many old covenant promises are still to be literally fulfilled on the millennial earth.
• Premillennialists promote a national restoration of natural Israel to a place of international prominence and authority over all other nations on a future millennial earth. They advocate the restoring of Israel back to her ancient borders. They see this fulfilling multiple old covenant promises to that nation. With this, they see the reemergence of Jerusalem as the global center of worship to our Lord.
• Most Premillennialists advocate the restoration of the Jewish ceremonial system on a future millennial earth. They anticipate the full restoration of all the old covenant feasts and festivals and the widespread observance of Jewish customs. They promote the reintroduction of the old abolished old covenant Judaic blood animal sacrifice system, including the restarting of fresh sin offerings and trespass offerings (whether real or memorial) after the second coming. They promote the rebuilding of the demolished Jewish temple in Jerusalem to accommodate this. They reinstate circumcision as a meritorious act in the eyes of God. They see a restoration of the Old Testament priesthood.
• They see Satan being released from any restraints operating unimpeded on the future earth deceiving billions who lived under the righteous and glorious reign of Christ.
• They believe in the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium.
• Premils believe the removal of the bondage of corruption (all the result of the fall – including sin and sickness, death and decay) only occurs 1,000 years after the second coming after Satan has been unhinged to do his evil on the millennial earth for a short season.
• The vast majority of Premillennialists of our day hold to 2 “last days” periods and 2 new heavens and new earths ages. The first “last days” period relates to the intra-Advent period, the second to a future millennium. Last days passages like Isaiah 2:2 and Micah 4:1 are placed in a future millennium. They identify the first “new heaven and new earth” period with a future millennium, the second with the period following Satan’s little season. The first is imperfect and the second perfect. Premillennialists carefully relate a passage like Isaiah 65:17-19 to the first millennial new heaven and new earth.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

I have presented concrete evidence, not false claims like many Pseudo Premil historians do.

"Concrete evidence" of what? Of what some men believed in the past? Who cares? I did not bother reading even a single word of it because my belief is based upon scripture.

 

[WPM]

"Concrete evidence" of what? Of what some men believed in the past? Who cares? I did not bother reading even a single word of it because my belief is based upon scripture.

Do you believe in biblical corroboration?

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Do you believe in biblical corroboration?

I don't even know what that means. Post scripture. This is a Christian forum. Premillennialism is biblical. Let's see you prove otherwise FROM SCRIPTURE. You won't be able to.

 

[Taken]

Premillennialism is indeed a complex multi-faceted belief system. While there are variations and extremes within the doctrine, there are broad fundamentals in Premillennialism that can be found right across the board.

• Premils believe that Satan will be bound at the second coming and will be placed in a literal physical (bottomless) pit for 1,000 years.

• 
  
  Yes, According to Gods Word.
  
  Rev 20:
  [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
  [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  
  

  He will only be destroyed after a future 1,000 years/Satan’s little season.

  
  False.
  Satan is a Spirit.
  Spirits live Forever.
  
  Luke 20:
  [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;
  
  
  

  [*]Premillennialists of all shades believe that a significant number of mortal humans survive the Lord’s return and join the glorified saints in populating a millennial earth.

  
  No.
  Glorified saints estate is the Lords Kingdom.
  They do NOT marry, reproduce, die.
  
  Mortals estates are Nations occupying the Lands outside of the Lords Kingdom.
  Yes, they Mortally live, mortally repopulate, mortally die.
  
  
  No need to continue your “further” step by step false narrative of premillennialist beliefs…
  
  Why are YOU “dictating” what “you determine others Believe and then disagreeing with your own claims”?

 

[WPM]

I don't even know what that means. Post scripture. This is a Christian forum. Premillennialism is biblical. Let's see you prove otherwise FROM SCRIPTURE. You won't be able to.

You could quickly check a dictionary or google it. This is an absolute in Christian hermeneutics. It means other biblical support. Do you have other Scripture that teaches this 1000 years and all the tenets you attach to your position?

 

[WPM]

• 
  
  Yes, According to Gods Word.
  
  Rev 20:
  [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
  [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  
  
  
  False.
  Satan is a Spirit.
  Spirits live Forever.
  
  Luke 20:
  [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;
  
  
  
  
  No.
  Glorified saints estate is the Lords Kingdom.
  They do NOT marry, reproduce, die.
  
  Mortals estates are Nations occupying the Lands outside of the Lords Kingdom.
  Yes, they Mortally live, mortally repopulate, mortally die.
  
  
  No need to continue your “further” step by step false narrative of premillennialist beliefs…
  
  Why are YOU “dictating” what “you determine others Believe and then disagreeing with your own claims”?

Why did you not address all the points i presented?

So, this is just a re-run of this current age with all the bondage of corruption continuing, thriving and growing. Your whole millennium ends up in a debacle, with billions of Satanists overrunning it. So much for the perfect pristine environment Premils like to portray. So much for restored paradise.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

You could quickly check a dictionary or google it. This is an absolute in Christian hermeneutics. It means other biblical support. Do you have other Scripture that teaches this 1000 years and all the tenets you attach to your position?

Where are your scriptures to back your faulty position?

I just got to work, so I will check back later tonight.

 

[WPM]

I don't even know what that means. Post scripture. This is a Christian forum. Premillennialism is biblical. Let's see you prove otherwise FROM SCRIPTURE. You won't be able to.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed at Christ’s return, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21 and Revelation 20:9).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

 

[Taken]

Why did you not address all the points i presented?

Too convoluted.


Why not respond why you reject the Word of God in Rev 20: 2-3?