pandaflower
Well-Known Member
I don't think you realize you are talking in circles and making contradictory assertions.
You didn't understand my post that you quoted.
Is it possible to lose salvation?
- Thread starter LoveYeshua
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You didn't understand my post that you quoted.
No, I don't bunch together the law-keeping of the OT Jew under the Old Covenant with the "works of righteousness" or "good works" mentioned in the NT. The laws of ceremony and separation (but not morality) given to Israel through Moses are done away with under the "new and living way" formed in and through Jesus Christ. See Hebrews 7-10:22, Galatians 3-5, Romans 3-5.
Are all instances in the NT ruling out good works or works of righteousness as necessary to salvation referring to Old Covenant law-keeping?
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Is there any ground in this passage, or its immediate context, to think that Old Covenant law-keeping is in view here? No. From the beginning of the chapter to the point where the above passage appears, there is no mention whatever of the Mosaic Law. What works are in view, then, in verse 9? Well, Paul leaves it all-encompassing, entailing any work that seeks to fulfill either the OT Mosaic Law, or the Moral Law God has instilled in all of us via our conscience (Ro. 2:14-15).
Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
What are the "works of righteousness" Paul rules out as necessary to salvation in verse 5? Only acts of obedience to the Law of Moses? No. Nowhere in the entire chapter are such laws mentioned. What would Paul's statement in verse 5 rule out, then? Any and all acts of obedience to God, particularly externally performed ones (as opposed to God commanded postures/attitudes of heart and mind one might adopt, like faith, humility, or joy). In the above passage, Paul is very careful to clarify that all "works of righteousness" have nothing to do with a person's salvation, locating one's salvation, instead, in the Holy Spirit (vs. 5), Jesus Christ (vs. 6), and God's grace (vs. 7).
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Here, again, Paul rules out our works as salvific, locating our salvation in God's calling, purpose, grace and Son, Jesus Christ. The Mosaic Law is not mentioned once in the entire chapter, so there is no contextual reason to think this was solely what Paul meant by "works." As in the other instances above, Paul leaves it wide open as to what "works" he means, ruling out any and all works attempting to keep the Mosaic Law or God's Moral Law written on the hearts of all human beings.
Last edited:
To all: Be very careful about taking your understanding of a particular view from the opponents of that view. ALWAYS some mischaracterization or distortion is given by those who oppose the view they're attempting to define. So, instead, ask those who espouse the view, especially those who understand it well, what the view really is.
So far, in this thread, the enemies of OSAS have not represented the view well at all and have made very cartoonish mischaracterizations of it, in fact. I say this as one who has held to and taught OSAS for many years.
So far, in this thread, the enemies of OSAS have not represented the view well at all and have made very cartoonish mischaracterizations of it, in fact. I say this as one who has held to and taught OSAS for many years.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Eternal salvation is being eternally secure in the love and protection of God. This biblical truth can be encapsulated in the acronym, OSAS, Once Saved Always Saved.
Because we are. We are saved once and we are eternally always saved.And God will never cast us out.
Enemies of that fact will claim that thinking we are eternally saved means we can sin and never lose salvation.
That's not what eternal salvation is. It isn't a license to sin. There is nothing in God's word that says it is.
Enemies of Eternal Salvation,OSAS, are then enemies of the Gospel.
Because we are. We are saved once and we are eternally always saved.And God will never cast us out.
Enemies of that fact will claim that thinking we are eternally saved means we can sin and never lose salvation.
That's not what eternal salvation is. It isn't a license to sin. There is nothing in God's word that says it is.
Enemies of Eternal Salvation,OSAS, are then enemies of the Gospel.
The old Self, the person we are apart from God, "dead in trespasses and sins," "foolish, disobedient, deceived," "at enmity with God," is pathologically self-interested (Ro. 6:6; Eph. 2:1-3; Tit. 3:3; Col. 1:21). Above and before all, the carnal old Self wants to be gratified, and lauded, and served, it wants to be under its own direction, as much as possible, following its own course without criticism or correction (Jn. 3:19; Ro. 8:5-8; Phil. 3:18-19). This self-centeredness that characterizes the old Self was what the Serpent in Eden appealed to in Eve, and it is what is expressed in every sin we commit. Our natural selfishness sometimes displays itself in peculiar ways, however, helped into a warped shape by the devil. In the case of the question of the Eternal Security of the Believer (OSAS), this is certainly the case.
On the surface, the fear-based motive underpinning the SAL (saved and lost) doctrine is held up by those holding to the doctrine as a valuable feature of it. We all need to be very careful we don't step wrong with God or He'll give us the boot, kicking us out of His family and kingdom. The threat of salvation-lost is a necessary and powerful motivator of good works, keeping us from diving headlong into the wickedness that stands at our elbow at every moment, beckoning us into sin. Only if we're afraid of God, afraid of the yawning mouth of hell on the edge of which we stand at all times, will we live as we ought to do, spurning the lure of wicked temptation.
Can we truly walk with God as joyful, love-filled children, trusting in Him, resting peacefully in His compassion, mercy and power, while He constantly waves at us the terrifying prospect of our eternal damnation? No one knows how far is too far; no one knows, exactly, where the line is between saved and lost; and so, no one can say with any confidence that they'll get into heaven. Given God's perfect holiness, perhaps any sin, no matter how small, is a deep offence to God and thus sufficient to eject a person from His family and kingdom. For the Christian who "walks with God" as the flames of hell lick at their heels there is, then, only constant uncertainty and fear. God is not a gentle, compassionate, merciful Heavenly Father, but a Terrible Threat, a cruel Warden patrolling our lives for any reason to throw us onto Death Row.
One of the huge and obvious problems with this approach to being a Christian is that it is profoundly self-centered. The Christian who believes God may at any moment expel them from His kingdom and family is occupied with self-preservation, not with the Christ. Such a believer is acting always to keep themselves from the damning wrath of God, not "dine with Jesus," as God's word invites us all to do (Rev. 3:20). How is one to enjoy intimate, daily communion with God (1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Ps. 36:7-9) while He remains the Greatest Danger to one's eternal well-being? In this dynamic with God, one's focus will always be upon oneself, upon keeping oneself safe from God's fiercesome wrath and punishment. God is merely a Danger to be avoided, not a Father to be loved and enjoyed.
Thus, the fear-motive in walking with God is a fundamentally selfish motive. The old Self delights in the attention, however negatively it is obtained, and the devil is happy, too, that the Christian's eyes are not fixed in love and joy upon Christ (He. 12:1-3; 2 Co. 3:18), but upon themselves. This is why the fear-motive cannot ever be a motive God accepts in our walk with Him. It is fundamentally self-interested, which is the very opposite of what God calls His children into in their walk with Him. We are to die to ourselves, setting aside our self-interest, our natural self-preoccupation, walking in sacrificial love and joy with God, instead (Matt. 16:24-25; Jn. 12:24-25; Ga. 2:20; Col. 3:1-3).
How does the NT describe the life of the born-again believer? Is it described in terms of fear and threat?
Romans 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ...
1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.
Ac. 13:52
52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
And so on.
Fear is conspicuously absent from these verses/passages, which it must be if love, joy and peace are to characterize Christian living. In fact, the apostle John rules out a craven fear of God entirely, saying that the one who fears God in this way, who fears Him as wrathful Judge and Punisher, has not been made perfect in God's love. The effect, too, of the indwelling Holy Spirit, who spiritually regenerates the lost person (Ro. 8:9-13; Tit. 3:5), is that his love is shed abroad in their heart (Ro. 5:5). His "fruit" in the life of the Christian is "love, joy, peace..." not fear.
The believer who is secure in their relationship with God, who understands that their acceptance by God is entirely the consequence of the perfection of Christ in whom they have been placed spiritually (Eph. 1:1-13; 2 Co. 5:21), is liberated from self-interested fear and able to truly walk with God in love, and peace, and joy.
On the surface, the fear-based motive underpinning the SAL (saved and lost) doctrine is held up by those holding to the doctrine as a valuable feature of it. We all need to be very careful we don't step wrong with God or He'll give us the boot, kicking us out of His family and kingdom. The threat of salvation-lost is a necessary and powerful motivator of good works, keeping us from diving headlong into the wickedness that stands at our elbow at every moment, beckoning us into sin. Only if we're afraid of God, afraid of the yawning mouth of hell on the edge of which we stand at all times, will we live as we ought to do, spurning the lure of wicked temptation.
Can we truly walk with God as joyful, love-filled children, trusting in Him, resting peacefully in His compassion, mercy and power, while He constantly waves at us the terrifying prospect of our eternal damnation? No one knows how far is too far; no one knows, exactly, where the line is between saved and lost; and so, no one can say with any confidence that they'll get into heaven. Given God's perfect holiness, perhaps any sin, no matter how small, is a deep offence to God and thus sufficient to eject a person from His family and kingdom. For the Christian who "walks with God" as the flames of hell lick at their heels there is, then, only constant uncertainty and fear. God is not a gentle, compassionate, merciful Heavenly Father, but a Terrible Threat, a cruel Warden patrolling our lives for any reason to throw us onto Death Row.
One of the huge and obvious problems with this approach to being a Christian is that it is profoundly self-centered. The Christian who believes God may at any moment expel them from His kingdom and family is occupied with self-preservation, not with the Christ. Such a believer is acting always to keep themselves from the damning wrath of God, not "dine with Jesus," as God's word invites us all to do (Rev. 3:20). How is one to enjoy intimate, daily communion with God (1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Ps. 36:7-9) while He remains the Greatest Danger to one's eternal well-being? In this dynamic with God, one's focus will always be upon oneself, upon keeping oneself safe from God's fiercesome wrath and punishment. God is merely a Danger to be avoided, not a Father to be loved and enjoyed.
Thus, the fear-motive in walking with God is a fundamentally selfish motive. The old Self delights in the attention, however negatively it is obtained, and the devil is happy, too, that the Christian's eyes are not fixed in love and joy upon Christ (He. 12:1-3; 2 Co. 3:18), but upon themselves. This is why the fear-motive cannot ever be a motive God accepts in our walk with Him. It is fundamentally self-interested, which is the very opposite of what God calls His children into in their walk with Him. We are to die to ourselves, setting aside our self-interest, our natural self-preoccupation, walking in sacrificial love and joy with God, instead (Matt. 16:24-25; Jn. 12:24-25; Ga. 2:20; Col. 3:1-3).
How does the NT describe the life of the born-again believer? Is it described in terms of fear and threat?
Romans 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ...
1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.
Ac. 13:52
52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
And so on.
Fear is conspicuously absent from these verses/passages, which it must be if love, joy and peace are to characterize Christian living. In fact, the apostle John rules out a craven fear of God entirely, saying that the one who fears God in this way, who fears Him as wrathful Judge and Punisher, has not been made perfect in God's love. The effect, too, of the indwelling Holy Spirit, who spiritually regenerates the lost person (Ro. 8:9-13; Tit. 3:5), is that his love is shed abroad in their heart (Ro. 5:5). His "fruit" in the life of the Christian is "love, joy, peace..." not fear.
The believer who is secure in their relationship with God, who understands that their acceptance by God is entirely the consequence of the perfection of Christ in whom they have been placed spiritually (Eph. 1:1-13; 2 Co. 5:21), is liberated from self-interested fear and able to truly walk with God in love, and peace, and joy.
From my perspective,
Through the sacrificial blood of Jesus, salvation from sin has been made available to all. However, not everyone enters the Kingdom of Heaven, as doing so requires an intentional choice to turn toward God. Many remain in spiritual darkness—or spiritual deadness—unaware or unresponsive to the light and life offered through Yeshua. This spiritual awakening occurs in those who believe, and it is through Him that good works are accomplished. He alone receives credit for them.
Entrance into the Kingdom of God is granted to those who choose faithfulness toward Yahavah—God. This is a deeply personal decision. I personally made that choice to accept Yeshua at the age of 26. And while Yahavah remains faithful, He grants each person the freedom to walk away. Our continued faithfulness is not coerced; it rests entirely on our willingness to remain in Him.
Regarding the question of losing salvation: in terms of our sins being paid for, salvation is a transition from one spiritual state to another—a deliverance. However, individuals may choose to return to spiritual darkness or deadness by stepping away from that transformed state.
I do not subscribe to the belief of “once saved, always saved.” Salvation and relationship with God are rooted in personal choices. Only Yahavah can see the true condition of the human heart. He does not force anyone to remain in one spiritual position or another—that decision lies with each of us. Yet, He consistently draws those with willing hearts, and He delights in the faith of those who seek Him diligently.
Through the sacrificial blood of Jesus, salvation from sin has been made available to all. However, not everyone enters the Kingdom of Heaven, as doing so requires an intentional choice to turn toward God. Many remain in spiritual darkness—or spiritual deadness—unaware or unresponsive to the light and life offered through Yeshua. This spiritual awakening occurs in those who believe, and it is through Him that good works are accomplished. He alone receives credit for them.
Entrance into the Kingdom of God is granted to those who choose faithfulness toward Yahavah—God. This is a deeply personal decision. I personally made that choice to accept Yeshua at the age of 26. And while Yahavah remains faithful, He grants each person the freedom to walk away. Our continued faithfulness is not coerced; it rests entirely on our willingness to remain in Him.
Regarding the question of losing salvation: in terms of our sins being paid for, salvation is a transition from one spiritual state to another—a deliverance. However, individuals may choose to return to spiritual darkness or deadness by stepping away from that transformed state.
I do not subscribe to the belief of “once saved, always saved.” Salvation and relationship with God are rooted in personal choices. Only Yahavah can see the true condition of the human heart. He does not force anyone to remain in one spiritual position or another—that decision lies with each of us. Yet, He consistently draws those with willing hearts, and He delights in the faith of those who seek Him diligently.
The idea that I always have full freedom to choose to remain a child of God is a widespread belief within the Church, but this idea has its roots in secular philosophy rather than in Scripture. The words of Christ flatly deny this notion:
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
It is, I think, the radical individualism of secular post-modernism/relativistic subjectivism that prompts Christians to add to Christ's words above their own qualification: Except myself. I am not included, these Christians think, in "anyone" or "no one," and so, I'm able to take myself out of Christ's hand. This is, of course, a glaring addition to what Christ said. "Anyone" and "no one" are blanket terms, encompassing everyone. There is not one single person, not myself or someone else, who has the power to extract me from Christ's hand. To understand this from Christ's words above requires no addition, or exaggeration, or subtraction to his words. But the alternative "I can remove myself" view does. Which understanding of Christ's words, then, handles what he said better?
We are not able to remain perfectly faithful to Christ, or perfectly obedient to God, which we must do (Jn. 5:48). This, the NT makes very clear. We are weak, vacillating, and selfish (Ro. 3:10, 23; Eph. 2:1-3; Tit: 3:3, etc.). And so, if our salvation rests in any degree upon us, our salvation is doomed. Knowing this, God has anchored our salvation in His Son, who is perfect (Jn. 14:6; Ac. 4;12; 1 Ti. 2:5; 2 Co. 5:21). With him, God is always entirely satisfied, accepting Him fully and eternally. So it is that, at the moment of conversion, the Holy Spirit places the lost person into Christ (Ro. 6:3-6), making them a new creature in him (2 Co. 5:17). As a result, they are "clothed" in Christ, they have "put on" Christ (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), and thus are totally, perfectly redeemed, justified and sanctified by him (1 Co. 1:30) - and accepted by God. Since Christ's perfection never changes, God's acceptance of Christ never changes and so, His acceptance of those "in Christ" never changes, either (Eph. 1:1-13).
This is all God's work upon us; He saves us and He transforms us and He doesn't ask us how, exactly, we'd like this to happen, nor for how long. God isn't like us; we aren't His near-equal, though many Christians act like they are. God didn't ask for our input on how He'd rescue us from ourselves; He didn't seek our recommendation as to when He'd send His Son to die for us, or the manner of Christ's death; He didn't inquire from us if we thought being made "temples" of His Spirit, "bought with a price," was a good idea or not; He made no effort to obtain our approval first before putting us to death spiritually with Christ on the cross. And so on. Why would He, though? He's God. We aren't. He can do as He likes with us how He likes.
And so, God's adoption of us, once accomplished, is not up for negotiation. He has bought us and we are His; though we might waver and wander from Him, He doesn't do this with us. Thank God this is so; for if our relationship with Him depended at all upon us, we'd all be doomed, in short order, to hell. But, oh, how some believers want to assert themselves with God! How much some Christians want to be able to dictate to God the terms of their relationship with Him, even assigning to themselves the power to dissolve what He's done! They cloak the enormous hubris in this thinking under the truth of free will, making far too radical the freedom they actually have.
Hi Kokyu
I see you found some versions that use the word SHOULD for Romans 7:4.
Incredible, isn't it?
We could make the bible state whatever we want it to state....
So, do you believe that by using the word SHOULD, which is an old English way of saying that we must,
Paul is giving us a choice of obeying or not...
doing good or not?
Then what did Paul mean here:
Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
What do YOU believe the obedience of faith is?
What did Paul mean?
and
Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Do you believe Paul is making conflicting statements?
So perhaps we should take the word SHOULD as Paul meant it.
Here is the correct translations of
Romans 7:4: THAT WE MAY BRING FRUIT WORTHY OF CHRIST.
If you really need to discuss the word SHOULD as it is meant in Romans 7:4,,,,
I'll be happy to do so.
The bible is a complete thought.
Chrerry picking from versions to suit our needs will not work well in learning the teachings of Jesus.
So are you saying that Jesus did NOT die for those before the NT?
Are you stating that Jesus' death did not atone for ALL sins from the beginning of time?
His sacrifice was only valid from the moment He died???
I know what you've written only too well, those that believe in OSAS do NOT now the history of the NT or the church.
Jesus did not teach that we are born again one time.
He taught that we are to obey His teachings and this is ALL He taught.
1 John 3:7
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
The one who PRACTICES RIGHTEOUSNES is righteous.
The one who ACTS on the words of Christ are the wise:
Matthew 7.24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The foolish man did NOT ACT on the words of Christ...
and his house was taken away by the flood.
You think Jesus believed man could be perfect?
You believe the OT saints were saved by being perfect?
God demanded obedience both in the OT and the NT.
God's moral law is eternal and is valid in both the OT and the NT.
You're going to have to post scripture to support your incorrect view.
EVERY verse in the NT is for ALL believers.
This post of yours shows, without a shadow of a doubt,
that you do not believe it necessary to obey God.
Sounds like you don't love Jesus:
John 14.15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Last edited:
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
That's what those who like to keep the door open to sin keep saying as they reject God's warnings that say eternal security is ONLY applicable to those that abide IN Christ.
These people cause others to stumble as they claim one can living in sin and still be saved which is doctrines of demons.
Jesus is like Noah's Ark... as long as one is abiding IN the Ark they are saved.
Sinful behavior is throwing one's self overboard and since they are no longer in the safety of the Ark (abiding IN Christ)... they are not longer on their way to Heaven but are once again on their way to hell.... unless they REPENT, confessing their sin to the Lord and forsaking their sin so they can be cleansed of unrighteousness and once again be back in right standing with the Father (see Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9) just like the prodigal son who was dead while away but alive once again when he returned to the Father. (see Luke 15:24-26)
The smart ones know this and abide IN Christ so they aren't cut off as Jesus told us about in John 15 which is what happens to those that do not abide IN Him.
Those that follow false doctrines that ignore the teachings of Jesus... well, not much hope for them and when they get where they are going, they will regret their false doctrine for all eternity!
I don't see any scripture so I won't respond.
It's up to YOU to support your view...
it's not up to ME.
Then why do you keep bringing up verses that are referring to THE LAW??
And do you notice that Ephesians 2:10 states that we are SAVED FOR GOOD WORKS?
Your posts sound like you missed this part.
Thanks you.
Again you have stated, plainly, that Paul does not teach us that all acts of obedience to God are necessary.
I think Jesus was speaking about EXTERNALLY PERFORMED WORKS in the following....
those YOU seem to be against:
Matthew 25:34-46
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Could you post some teachings of Christ wherein He teaches against external works??
These external works come from the heart....
BUT they still must be accomplished.
You will find no verse that states otherwise.
Perhaps Jesus was wrong when He taught:
John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
§Works of righteousness have nothing to do with our salvation?
Then we have a big conflict in the NT.
1 John 3:7
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
Oh. So now we have the NOT SAVED BY WORKS strawman.
WHO on this thread, or any thread or forum...has EVER stated that we are saved by works??ù
NO ONE.
We are saved by faith.
AFTER we are saved by faith,
we are saved...
We are required to obey God.
No need to obey God before salvation.
I believe I've stated this quite a few times now.
Perhaps you don't understand that the UNSAVED are not required to obey God...
ONLY the saved.
YOU bring up the LAW Kokyu.
Paul only states that we are not saved by keeping THE LAW.
He does state that we are saved by doing good works...
just Like Jesus did.
ALL the Apostles taught good works.
James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Faith, without good works, is a DEAD faith.
A dead faith
is
No faith.
No faith.
No salvation.
Pandaflower...
If you want to discuss theology,,,
then that's what you should do.
Please post scripture to support your view that it is not necessary to obey God
or that it is impossible to lose our salvation.
What I post is NOT by belief because I post scripture to support what I've been taught be 3 different denominations AND the New Testament AND church history.
IF you do not agree then please state your case by using scripture.
I'll only reply if you use scripture.
Your personal belief system is of no value.
Did you learn the difference between OSAS and eternal security?
When you do we could discuss.
There's a big difference.
You just haven't looked into it.
OSAS means that a person could sin all he wants to after having become a believer because he somehow thinks that once a person is saved they could never lose that salvation.
If this were true,,,
no warnings in the NT would have been necessary.
ETERNAL SECURITY teaches that a person is secure in Christ for as long as he REMAINS in Christ.
IF you doubt the difference,,,
then read the following verses until you really understand them......
with all due respect.
John 15:1-2 Jesus said:
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
The above is Jesus' teaching.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
I think you demonstrate you are the one who is unaware of the points of discussion.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Red Herring.
You ignore scripture consistently in making your arguments against what is God's eternal salvation.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
I have done that. And you ignore it all so to make your argument against God's free irrevocable gift of eternal security in his salvation.
You will continue to make arguments against the Gospel.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This is flawed in so many ways
OSAS means just that once a person is forgiven of all sin. and applied the righteousness of Christ. He is saved forever.
ETERNAL SECIRTY , if it is not eternal. is not eternal secuirty.
You added a condition. hence this would be CONDITIONAL security.
not sure why you are the one who does not seem to understand these basic biblical truths.
The cross is the means of salvation.
God does not save those who do not trust him.
Similar threads
