Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

Please post a copy of my posting where I stated works save.

Thank you.

YOU stated that works save??

 

[pandaflower]

YOU stated that works save??

Thank you.

Who else shares your account with you here?
Since you don't know what they said in your stead. Even when what 'you' said was quoted.

"@pandaflower, like many other Christians, can't seem to understand the difference between the fact that works do not save anyone
and
after one comes to believe in God he is commanded to do good works."

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you.

Who else shares your account with you here?
Since you don't know what they said in your stead. Even when what 'you' said was quoted.

"@pandaflower, like many other Christians, can't seem to understand the difference between the fact that works do not save anyone
and
after one comes to believe in God he is commanded to do good works."

So where does the above state that you believe that works save?

If I've understood correctly, you believe works have nothing to do with salvation.

Which is not what Jesus taught, but it's OK.
Many here make up their own religion.

 

[pandaflower]

So where does the above state that you believe that works save?

You should ask whomever you allowed to write that in your name to explain to you their poor English skills.
Which appears to go nicely with your deficit in reading comprehension.

If I've understood correctly, you believe works have nothing to do with salvation.

False.

Which is not what Jesus taught, but it's OK.

You prove you don't respect what Jesus taught.

Many here make up their own religion.

Yes,you have shown us that.

 

[GodsGrace]

You should ask whomever you allowed to write that in your name to explain to you their poor English skills.
Which appears to go nicely with your deficit in reading comprehension.

Hmmm. The above is what I would have written to you since you didn't even understand what was written.
But I wanted to be nice.
Apparently, you demonstrate perfectly what those that believe that good works are not necessary do:

They are not nice.

Because they don't believe it's important to be.

Now what would Jesus say about the remarks you've made about me all along?

Nothing good, I fear.

False.

You prove you don't respect what Jesus taught.

But YOU do respect what Jesus taught?
By posting on these forums that it's not necessary to obey God
and it's not necessary to do good works for God.
That those that do not agree with you are damned.
And that they have a deficit in their reading skills.

BTW...find out what deficit means.
It doesn't mean what you THINK it means.


Yes ma'am.
That is real respect for the God that went to the cross for you.

 

[Kokyu]

No slipping and sliding.
All of my above statements is what the NT teaches.

Here they are again, just to make sure:

"...those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation."

"...Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven."

"Satan's greatest lie is that we could disobey God and still be saved.

Those who believe in God will be saved....
Those who do not obey God will see the wrath of God.
John 3.36"

Thanks for repeating what the NT teaches.

Yes, you regularly use a great deal of slippery rhetoric, willful obtuseness, outright denial and equivocation. I've rarely run into such a practiced hand at projection, deflection and Strawmanning. It's quite impressive - and amusing. Mainly, I find your posts amusing because you seem to think everyone else is taken in by your fallacious reasoning and rhetoric and because you can't seem to help using this style of argument.

Not going to go back to see what I posted.
how far is too far sounds like the same old strawman those such as yourself keep bringing up.

Well, of course you're not going to go back and see what you wrote. Doing so will just make your denial/dismissal more difficult.

In any case, I notice - as others have, too, no doubt - that you still haven't properly addressed the challenge to your view that the question of "How far is too far?" poses. Certainly, just calling it a Strawman doesn't dissolve the problem the question poses. Do you have a response that actually can answer the question biblically? Or are you going to just pretend this defeater of your view doesn't exist?

If YOU want to experiment with God to see how far you could go and still retain salvation...
THAT is up to you.

I don't want to do this. I love God and trust Him and so, I do as He tells me to do. The question of how much obedience to God is enough to keep me saved has nothing to do with my fellowship with Him.

And fear?
I NEVER mentioned fear.

More equivocation. What do you think will be the feeling of people who hear from you that if they don't obey God they aren't saved? What does it mean for them if they lose their salvation? Fun and games? Of course not. The lost go to hell, as you well know, and as you expect your audience knows, too. Obviously, then, you intend to make fearful those you warn will lose their salvation if they don't obey God. To pretend otherwise is just more of your rhetorical slipperiness.

Then why are we debating?
I've asked you this a few times now.

If you believe Christians are to obey God...
why not just say so?

WHAT are you debating me about?

This demonstrates that you really haven't understood the substance of my posts, though you claim otherwise. Repeatedly, I've indicated that born-again believers are to obey God. But you just can't accept for some reason that I think this and also that a child of God cannot ever be plucked out of His hand. This is a problem in your own thinking, though, not with what I've written in my posts.

Our contention is not over whether or not a Christian should obey God, which, obviously, they should, but over whether or not their obedience to God is salvific, which it isn't. I've not altered in the slightest on this point in this thread, so why the sudden bafflement here? Your apparent confusion in the quotation above just seems to me to be more willful (which is to say, disingenuous) obtuseness on your part.

On my end, anyway, I've never indicated that a genuinely born-again believer may carry on in sin.

GodsGrace replied:

"You just stated above that they could.

Make up your mind."

Do you not understand the difference between "may" and "can"? God does not give permission to His children to sin; He doesn't ever say to them, "You may carry on in sin." But this doesn't mean they can't sin, that they are without the capacity to do so. The Bible clearly indicates that they can - and so - sin. So, I don't have to "make up my mind"; you have to comprehend what I'm writing.

OUGHT TO OBEY God's commands?
OUGHT?

YES. Does all-caps "shouting" help you understand?

No sir.
Jesus said the branches that DO NOT produce fruit are CUT OFF, dried up, and burned.

Burned.

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is argued that, in verse 6, Jesus is not describing a person who is lost but one who is just spiritually useless. This idea hearkens back to the words of the prophet Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 15:1-5
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2 “Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it...

As Ezekiel points out, apart from producing grapes, the wood of the Vine is useless (except as fuel). So, then, the person not abiding in the Vine, who is Christ, and producing "fruit" is spiritually useless. In John 15:6, then, Jesus isn't describing a person who was saved (abiding in Christ) and then unsaved, but a person who has not remained in fellowship with himself and becomes unfruitful spiritually and thus entirely useless as a "branch." Its quite likely that Christ's Jewish disciples were familiar with the passage from Ezekiel above and understood Christ's words in John 15:6 within the context of the passage.

This understanding of Christ's words in verse 6 is strengthened by the fact that Jesus speaks of men gathering the useless wood and throwing it into the fire. Jesus, however, taught that it would be angels, not men, who would cast into hell all who "offend."

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 15:6, then, is not referring to the Final Judgment and the casting of the lost into hell but is merely expressing the complete uselessness of a disciple who does not bear fruit.

You shouldn't listen to ME
but you should pay attention to what JESUS states.

Please take your own advice. See above.

Like branches missing out on some benefit when Jesus says they will be burned.

Incredible.

Not incredible. You just don't know God's word as well you need to in order to properly understand it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing - especially when it is coupled to very poor reasoning, as in your case.

No sir.
I read nothing in the NT about this FELLOWSHIP you speak of and you've not provided any scripture.

Yes, I have. Here are the Scripture references again: 1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Rev. 3:20; Ps. 36:7-9, etc. I know you will refuse to look these up, but this makes no difference whatever to what they say. Your willful ignorance of God's word doesn't dissolve its Truth.

Oh. This is new.
Perhaps you could post some scripture that states that God is our buddy.

I don't have to supply Scripture for your Strawman.

 

[ProDeo]

anti OSAS passage?

what passage denies the eternity of the gospel and our salvation?

For starters :

1. King Solomon, Scripture contains 5 books of him, among all the other wise things he wrote he foremost said - The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [Pred 12:13]

And yet he fell from grace at the end of his life, so bad the Lord turned against him. [1 Kings chapter 11] No endurance till the end.

2.
1Tim 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Tim 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
1Tim 1:20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Jesus -> NOSAS
John -> NOSAS
Paul -> NOSAS
James ->NOSAS
Hebrews -> NOSAS

But feel free to ignore all the warnings.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The promise.

[Q] - is the promise conditional or not ?

 

[Kokyu]

You really need to study the NT and find out what it's saying.

Shipwreck does NOT mean loss of salvation?
What is a shipwreck K?

Is that boat still floating???

And the scripture you've actually posted (surprise, surprise, surprise) is not anywhere close to supporting your point of view....

Flat denial/contradiction does not prove your view or disprove mine. It's just denial/contradiction - like what children do in arguments between themselves on the playground:

"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't"
"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't."

Also, being incredulous that I don't assume, as you do, that "shipwreck" must mean "salvation lost" does not dissolve what I pointed out from the passage and it certainly doesn't secure your assumption. Your incredulity is just a kind of rhetorical posturing, nothing more.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, you regularly use a great deal of slippery rhetoric, willful obtuseness, outright denial and equivocation. I've rarely run into such a practiced hand at projection, deflection and Strawmanning. It's quite impressive - and amusing. Mainly, I find your posts amusing because you seem to think everyone else is taken in by your fallacious reasoning and rhetoric and because you can't seem to help using this style of argument.



Well, of course you're not going to go back and see what you wrote. Doing so will just make your denial/dismissal more difficult.

In any case, I notice - as others have, too, no doubt - that you still haven't properly addressed the challenge to your view that the question of "How far is too far?" poses. Certainly, just calling it a Strawman doesn't dissolve the problem the question poses. Do you have a response that actually can answer the question biblically? Or are you going to just pretend this defeater of your view doesn't exist?



I don't want to do this. I love God and trust Him and so, I do as He tells me to do. The question of how much obedience to God is enough to keep me saved has nothing to do with my fellowship with Him.



More equivocation. What do you think will be the feeling of people who hear from you that if they don't obey God they aren't saved? What does it mean for them if they lose their salvation? Fun and games? Of course not. The lost go to hell, as you well know, and as you expect your audience knows, too. Obviously, then, you intend to make fearful those you warn will lose their salvation if they don't obey God. To pretend otherwise is just more of your rhetorical slipperiness.



This demonstrates that you really haven't understood the substance of my posts, though you claim otherwise. Repeatedly, I've indicated that born-again believers are to obey God. But you just can't accept for some reason that I think this and also that a child of God cannot ever be plucked out of His hand. This is a problem in your own thinking, though, not with what I've written in my posts.

Our contention is not over whether or not a Christian should obey God, which, obviously, they should, but over whether or not their obedience to God is salvific, which it isn't. I've not altered in the slightest on this point in this thread, so why the sudden bafflement here? Your apparent confusion in the quotation above just seems to me to be more willful (which is to say, disingenuous) obtuseness on your part.



GodsGrace replied:

"You just stated above that they could.

Make up your mind."

Do you not understand the difference between "may" and "can"? God does not give permission to His children to sin; He doesn't ever say to them, "You may carry on in sin." But this doesn't mean they can't sin, that they are without the capacity to do so. The Bible clearly indicates that they can - and so - sin. So, I don't have to "make up my mind"; you have to comprehend what I'm writing.



YES. Does all-caps "shouting" help you understand?



John 15:4-5
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is argued that, in verse 6, Jesus is not describing a person who is lost but one who is just spiritually useless. This idea hearkens back to the words of the prophet Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 15:1-5
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2 “Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it...

As Ezekiel points out, apart from producing grapes, the wood of the Vine is useless (except as fuel). So, then, the person not abiding in the Vine, who is Christ, and producing "fruit" is spiritually useless. In John 15:6, then, Jesus isn't describing a person who was saved (abiding in Christ) and then unsaved, but a person who has not remained in fellowship with himself and becomes unfruitful spiritually and thus entirely useless as a "branch." Its quite likely that Christ's Jewish disciples were familiar with the passage from Ezekiel above and understood Christ's words in John 15:6 within the context of the passage.

This understanding of Christ's words in verse 6 is strengthened by the fact that Jesus speaks of men gathering the useless wood and throwing it into the fire. Jesus, however, taught that it would be angels, not men, who would cast into hell all who "offend."

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 15:6, then, is not referring to the Final Judgment and the casting of the lost into hell but is merely expressing the complete uselessness of a disciple who does not bear fruit.



Please take your own advice. See above.



Not incredible. You just don't know God's word as well you need to in order to properly understand it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing - especially when it is coupled to very poor reasoning, as in your case.




Yes, I have. Here are the Scripture references again: 1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Rev. 3:20; Ps. 36:7-9, etc. I know you will refuse to look these up, but this makes no difference whatever to what they say. Your willful ignorance of God's word doesn't dissolve its Truth.



I don't have to supply Scripture for your Strawman.

Good.
Because I don't intend to post to you anymore.

Too personal.
You don't stick to scripture.
You twist the words to make them mean what YOU want them to mean.
Fellowship?
Really?
Are you speaking about God or one of your buddies?


And you ADD to scripture.

You are extremely ignorant of God's word and choose to believe YouTubers instead of the written words in the bible which JESUS stated.

If you don't accept the words of Christ....you certainly will give no consideration to those of anyone on these threads.

Try to understand God's word the way Jesus wants you to understand it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Flat denial/contradiction does not prove your view or disprove mine. It's just denial/contradiction - like what children do in arguments between themselves on the playground:

"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't"
"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't."

Also, being incredulous that I don't assume, as you do, that "shipwreck" must mean "salvation lost" does not dissolve what I pointed out from the passage and it certainly doesn't secure your assumption. Your incredulity is just a kind of rhetorical posturing, nothing more.

More yadda yadda.
I'm here to discuss theology....
not have a fist fight with you.

Keep making those personal remarks.
I'm sure everyone is just waiting for your next one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, you regularly use a great deal of slippery rhetoric, willful obtuseness, outright denial and equivocation. I've rarely run into such a practiced hand at projection, deflection and Strawmanning. It's quite impressive - and amusing. Mainly, I find your posts amusing because you seem to think everyone else is taken in by your fallacious reasoning and rhetoric and because you can't seem to help using this style of argument.



Well, of course you're not going to go back and see what you wrote. Doing so will just make your denial/dismissal more difficult.

In any case, I notice - as others have, too, no doubt - that you still haven't properly addressed the challenge to your view that the question of "How far is too far?" poses. Certainly, just calling it a Strawman doesn't dissolve the problem the question poses. Do you have a response that actually can answer the question biblically? Or are you going to just pretend this defeater of your view doesn't exist?



I don't want to do this. I love God and trust Him and so, I do as He tells me to do. The question of how much obedience to God is enough to keep me saved has nothing to do with my fellowship with Him.



More equivocation. What do you think will be the feeling of people who hear from you that if they don't obey God they aren't saved? What does it mean for them if they lose their salvation? Fun and games? Of course not. The lost go to hell, as you well know, and as you expect your audience knows, too. Obviously, then, you intend to make fearful those you warn will lose their salvation if they don't obey God. To pretend otherwise is just more of your rhetorical slipperiness.



This demonstrates that you really haven't understood the substance of my posts, though you claim otherwise. Repeatedly, I've indicated that born-again believers are to obey God. But you just can't accept for some reason that I think this and also that a child of God cannot ever be plucked out of His hand. This is a problem in your own thinking, though, not with what I've written in my posts.

Our contention is not over whether or not a Christian should obey God, which, obviously, they should, but over whether or not their obedience to God is salvific, which it isn't. I've not altered in the slightest on this point in this thread, so why the sudden bafflement here? Your apparent confusion in the quotation above just seems to me to be more willful (which is to say, disingenuous) obtuseness on your part.



GodsGrace replied:

"You just stated above that they could.

Make up your mind."

Do you not understand the difference between "may" and "can"? God does not give permission to His children to sin; He doesn't ever say to them, "You may carry on in sin." But this doesn't mean they can't sin, that they are without the capacity to do so. The Bible clearly indicates that they can - and so - sin. So, I don't have to "make up my mind"; you have to comprehend what I'm writing.



YES. Does all-caps "shouting" help you understand?

All caps means shouting?
Since when?
Since the internet?

But caps were used even BEFORE the internet.

Gee. I wonder what CAPS REALLY mean???

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is argued that, in verse 6, Jesus is not describing a person who is lost but one who is just spiritually useless. This idea hearkens back to the words of the prophet Ezekiel:

IT IS ARGUED?

Ooops. there go those caps again.
(wonder what they REALLY mean?)


Well, we could stop arguing.

JESUS said that the USELESS branches are dried up and burned.
You know, like they don't exist anymore.

But go ahead and believe others instead of Jesus.

Many do this nowadays.
They'll take it up with God.

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.



See. Jesus said IT ALL.
No further comment necessary.

Of course, it requires paragraphs of explanation for those that either do not understand the written word,
do not understand what Jesus meant and/or believe Jesus was not a good communicator.

Ezekiel 15:1-5
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2 “Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it...

As Ezekiel points out, apart from producing grapes, the wood of the Vine is useless (except as fuel). So, then, the person not abiding in the Vine, who is Christ, and producing "fruit" is spiritually useless. In John 15:6, then, Jesus isn't describing a person who was saved (abiding in Christ) and then unsaved, but a person who has not remained in fellowship with himself and becomes unfruitful spiritually and thus entirely useless as a "branch." Its quite likely that Christ's Jewish disciples were familiar with the passage from Ezekiel above and understood Christ's words in John 15:6 within the context of the passage.

This understanding of Christ's words in verse 6 is strengthened by the fact that Jesus speaks of men gathering the useless wood and throwing it into the fire. Jesus, however, taught that it would be angels, not men, who would cast into hell all who "offend."

It is GOD who cuts off the branches that do not bear fruit.
THEY burn them.
Do you know about analogies?

Point is: The branches are burned BECAUSE they're useless.

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 15:6, then, is not referring to the Final Judgment and the casting of the lost into hell but is merely expressing the complete uselessness of a disciple who does not bear fruit.



Please take your own advice. See above.



Not incredible. You just don't know God's word as well you need to in order to properly understand it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing - especially when it is coupled to very poor reasoning, as in your case.




Yes, I have. Here are the Scripture references again: 1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Rev. 3:20; Ps. 36:7-9, etc. I know you will refuse to look these up, but this makes no difference whatever to what they say. Your willful ignorance of God's word doesn't dissolve its Truth.



I don't have to supply Scripture for your Strawman.

 

[pandaflower]

Hmmm. The above is what I would have written to you since you didn't even understand what was written.
But I wanted to be nice.
Apparently, you demonstrate perfectly what those that believe that good works are not necessary do:

They are not nice.

Because they don't believe it's important to be.

Now what would Jesus say about the remarks you've made about me all along?

Nothing good, I fear.

But YOU do respect what Jesus taught?
By posting on these forums that it's not necessary to obey God
and it's not necessary to do good works for God.
That those that do not agree with you are damned.
And that they have a deficit in their reading skills.

BTW...find out what deficit means.
It doesn't mean what you THINK it means.


Yes ma'am.
That is real respect for the God that went to the cross for you.

Deflection.

You cannot judge anyone here. You read the Bible as one in flesh.

I'm not going to read you anymore .

Foolishness .

 

[GodsGrace]

Deflection.

You cannot judge anyone here. You read the Bible as one in flesh.

I'm not going to read you anymore .

Good pandaflower.
Stick to listening to those that make you feel comfy.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually the Lord said that.

He just instructed James to write it down.

@Big Boy Johnson @ProDeo and @GodsGrace

He al;so instructed paul to write Romans 4. and eph 2, and titus 3:5 and John 3, 4, 5 and 6 (actually those where jesus words)

so why are you excited about james, and not the passaged, which using YOUR INTERPRETATION of james contradicts.

The people James spoke to

1. they were hears not doers
2. They had zero zip nada works (not even 1)
3. They claimed to have faith

does anyone believe they had real faith. let alone saving faith?

I know of no one who thinks they did.

so why were they not saved?

Because they had no (dead, or nonliving faith) or because they had no works?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

how ? its not that difficult. take Judas for example. he is tost . Matthew 26:24

Judas did not lose salvation. He neve4r had it, he never trusted christ as redeemer,, He wanted christ to free him from rome

The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Yes it would have been better.

he walked with Christ for 3 years. was in the inner circle. Yet in the end, rejected Christ..

Judas never had life..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where did I say we saved by works?

do you believe

1. Works are required to be saved
2. Works are required to keep saved
3. Works are required so as to not lose salvation.

You people hear "works" and the bile comes flying and your heads spin around. Copy and paste where I said works saves.

lets see your words.

Works complete salvation. If faith needs completion it is not sufficient

So if faith is not sufficient, and you claim works complete salvation.

then how can you sit there and say you do not preach a works based salvation? What must be added to faith to make it sufficient to save?

Do you understand what "sufficient" means? Why does your faith need to be "PROVED" if faith is sufficient? You think God doesnt know your faith until you PROVE it through works? LMBO

Excuse me sir. I am not the one saying salvation needs to be proved.

I am arguing against this.

God knows if faith is real. No God does not need proof. I have said this since day one.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You think Luther was right dont you? LOL

Protestants are the most duped "believers" on the planet. You're the by-product of the most heretical person in history

lol.

Jews were the most duped in history so duped they crucified their messiah

Catholics are right up their with them though

 

[nedsk]

do you believe

1. Works are required to be saved
2. Works are required to keep saved
3. Works are required so as to not lose salvation.

lets see your words.

So if faith is not sufficient, and you claim works complete salvation.

then how can you sit there and say you do not preach a works based salvation? What must be added to faith to make it sufficient to save?

Excuse me sir. I am not the one saying salvation needs to be proved.

I am arguing against this.

God knows if faith is real. No God does not need proof. I have said this since day one.

1. Yes as James indicates faith without works is dead. Are you suggesting dead
faith is salvific?
2.Of course scripture shows those with faith but no works are not saved
3. See above

Do you understand what the sufficient means?

 

[nedsk]

lol.

Jews were the most duped in history so duped they crucified their messiah

Catholics are right up their with them though

You're a disciple of Luther. In other words a dupe.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

James did not speak of anyone CLAIMING to have faith.

What does it profit, my bretheren, if someone SAYS he has faith.....

says - Lego - To say, or to tell To speak to talk.

Now you tell me

if someone comes and tells you they have faith

are they not claiming that they have faith?

If you can not get this part right.. no need in reading the rest. it is most likely wrong to.;. So lets get you to admit they DID say they had faith (claim)