The mysteries in the Gospels “Who Do You Believe? The Witnessed Words of Jesus or Paul’s Private Vision?”
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it doesn’t matter what you “think”, what matters is the Truth. Paul never taught a different Gospel, and to go on about it while cryptically trying to say he did but didn’t, because you won’t answer a simple question is disingenuous at best. Paul clearly taught the importance of the Ten commandments.
In your own quote you prove yourself wrong. That’s why I included it in my original response. Peter backs Paul, though admitting his writing can be hard to understand, he affirms that “Ignorant and unstable people distort” Paul’s writings and warns followers of Christ to not be carried away by the ignorant and unstable people whom are doing the very thing you are doing.
Peter is witnessing for Paul in these very passages of scripture, just like I said in my original post. Don’t be foolish and try an argue any other way.
welcome to my ignore list
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The TEN commandments are inseparable from the Law
Just as you quoted JESUS = "I came not to destroy but to FULFILL"
At the heart of the Law is the TEN Commandments = Deuteronomy 5:1-22
And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 4The Lord talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 5I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:
6‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7‘You shall have no other gods before Me.
8‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
11‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
12‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
16‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
17‘You shall not murder.
18‘You shall not commit adultery.
19‘You shall not steal.
20‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
21‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’
22“These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 11:4
nonorthodoxy.com
Paul vs. Jesus: 25 Contradictory and Incompatible Statements - Biblical NON-Orthodoxy
Paul vs. Jesus: 25 Contradictory and Incompatible Statements. My hope is that this list will motivate you to remove the blindfold to see the Good Shepherd as he is.
nonorthodoxy.com
see your post 21 and my reply post 22
in my reply, it starts with;"No, I’m not saying Paul’s writings are false or not from God."
yeah, go for it summer time! yeah! where I live we have beautiful cycling paths that follow ols and unused train tracks, thay asphalted everything with halts evert few Km, one leads to Waterloo the other Granby, both near Montreal. these paths start just across the street from where I live in Bromont so I have no excuses. another closer still goes on mont brome where you can take a lift to the top and mountain bike dowhhill....
For my part marx, there is no verse of scripture that I would attempt set at nought, however, my post contained only New testament verses, and I was just curious if you were finding yourself at odds with the ones I posted.
The ones I posted, the ones you post and this one are all in the New Testament
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
When one is walking in the love of God and for ones neighbor the same would not be doing these things
Indeed, love covers a mutiltude of sins and we don’t do those things (murder, lie, covet, false witness, steal from, etc) to the ones we love.
1 Peter 4:8 (KJV) And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:8 (AMP) Above all, have fervent and unfailing love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins [it overlooks unkindness and unselfishly seeks the best for others].
You know, those verses always reminded me a little of the woman who was kissing and anointing Jesus in such a fervent manner and Jesus says.
Luke 7:7 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
A picture of fervent love towards Jesus Christ, where he says to her
Luke 7:8 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
He is good! Love when something hits home like that too. Thanks for posting those verses
PS95
Well-Known Member
Wait- what? You are actually trying to connect Paul with Matt 24:26?!? As if Paul received a false gospel from a false christ in the desert?!?
Oh geez-. Please Be more careful of what you accuse Paul of.
You have great difficulty in reconciling Paul with the teachings of Jesus. I have been through this with you before. What it comes down to for you is the Sabbath. That is where you get stuck. Isn't that the nail on the head again here? Let's walk through this.. hopefully it will help!
Paul is seen by you as teaching a different gospel... because he taught that the Saturday Sabbath keeping was now a choice and NOT TO JUDGE? It is why you demanded that Paul wrote Hebrews even though that is not certain, since Hebrews teaches that the SATURDAY Sabbath is every day now when we REST from our works- Hebrews 4
AND Hebrews 8
"When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
Do I have the 2 reasons right? Is there more that you can't reconcile?
Don't freak out. Paul is not denying Jesus' words there at all! Read on- maybe something will click--
Paul was not saying Do whatever you want- say a magic prayer- it's a free for all- everybody party- lie. murder, steal, who cares- we are saved! Never did he teach that. He taught the ONE & ONLY GOSPEL. Paul taught repentance and he also baptized some. I dont know why some say he didn't. It's written!
Paul was accepted and welcomed by James and Peter etc. You reject Christ when you reject Paul! Please be careful. Your imagination is taking you to wrong places!
If you could just understand all of the commandments were expanded by Jesus. Murder is now hate- anger. Adultery is a thought. Swearing an oath is never.. Stealing would be just desiring to ... ETC............ I know you get that, right? well-- the Sabbath is also expanded- every day when we rest in Christ.
- It is our hearts that the Lord deals with. We are ALL guilty. To a Jew if he didn't murder anyone or steal, went to synagogue on saturday etc- he was good with God.. Not so with Jesus. He condemned us all. Who stands against those expanded commands? No one.
For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Matt 15:19
It's in our hearts/minds where we are full of evil- Even if we don't act on it. Pride is there. Lust is still there.. Envy is there etc
That is why we need new hearts!! That is why our hearts are changed by the Spirit!
You no longer live as a slave to those sins.. you are born anew- a new creature.. It is inward where the Spirit works!
Clearly, you still do not understand the ONE gospel and due to your Sabbath confusion you murder Paul, and accuse his testimony.. I recall a thread before where you denied much of what Paul wrote. This is just sad.
One believes only Paul and another accuses Paul of a gospel of his own making. Please. those are both extremist views and WRONG.
There is ONE gospel. You really should not condemn what you do not understand. It's not wise. Take more time to learn and pray and you will see this.
Feel free to keep Saturdays if you like, you are free to do so- but it will not save you. Do not judge those who are free. This idea is driving you to accuse an apostle. Can't you see you have taken this too far?
It is not FOR God that we were given the Sabbath. You are not doing God a favor by Saturday keeping. He is not applauding if you do go to church on Saturday. He is not in need. You are not more righteous than anyone else because you go on Saturday. That is pride in the heart.
It was a SHADOW of things to come. REST is the reality. That rest is now in JESUS. He is Lord of the Sabbath and of all.
He fulfilled the law.
The true Sabbath rest is also expanded-- everyday now when we rest from our works in Christ. Hebrews 4 You would think that as a Sabbath lover you would rejoice at this thought! I fear you are still unable to do that. Pray about this.
Notice, sure we still should gather and build up each other as we await the Lord's return.. that can be with 2 or more- the Lord iss there among you. You can do that on Saturdays if you like or you can attend a big gathering.
But please stop planting evil seeds in the minds of people about Paul to join your wrong thinking. That's very dangerous for you. Pray instead.
The commandments of the New Covenant are to love God and our neighbor.
LOVE God and neighbor covers all those expanded commands and is the ROYAL LAW.
The Spirit given to us in our new birth teaches us, reminds us and helps us! The inward cup is being cleansed. **
The apostles welcomed Paul and called him their brother, and they taught the same ONE gospel. Remember it was a transition time for the Jews and many adjustments had to take place in them too. They were humans too who struggles with new things,
Pray about REST. I will pray for you too, LoveYeshua. It is a real struggle for you, and I have had my share of struggles too, and I wish you blessed peace.
HEBREWS 4--
1Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it. 2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.
3Now we who have believed enter that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said:
“So I swore on oath in My anger,
‘They shall never enter My rest.’ ”
And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world. 4For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.” 5And again, as He says in the passage above: “They shall never enter My rest.”
6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
I already have quoting Jesus, but you have rejected it from me and from Him:
“He who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father” (John 14:12)
ScottA
Well-Known Member
The commandments, the law, and the gospel of Christ stand, but what was different and why, Paul explained, saying "where there is no law there is no transgression."
Thus, unto the gentiles to whom no law was given, he referred rather to the grace of God through Christ, even as a new covenant Christ gave regarding matters going forward with. Meaning, the Jews of that generation still remaining, were not released from the law or commandments, for they were still under the old covenant which was given to them specifically. But the gentiles were not.
@WitnessX
Oh yes Paul did teach differently from Christ. Below are just a few more examples, you will not Like what you see and will reject this truth that is all from scripture that I prepered for you.
Paul wrote in Colossians 1:24 "I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church."
But Jesus, before giving up His spirit on the cross, clearly said, “It is finished” (John 19:30). That means the work of atonement was complete—nothing lacking, nothing needing to be added.
Jesus alone could offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice because He was sinless. He said, “Which of you convicts Me of sin?” (John 8:46), and again, “The ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me” (John 14:30). Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God, as John the Baptist declared: “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”(John 1:29).
Only a sinless offering could fulfill the Law and make atonement. No one else—not even the apostles—could do this. And certainly not Paul, who openly confessed, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief” (1 Timothy 1:15). If he was the chief of sinners, how could his sufferings “fill up” anything that Christ had already done? That claim is not only false—it totally dishonours the finished and perfect sacrifice of the Son of God. It diminishes the words of Jesus and His work on the cross.
Paul also often referred to “my gospel” (Romans 2:16; 16:25; 2 Timothy 2:8), as if it were his own version. But Jesus gave one gospel—the gospel of repentance from sin and the kingdom of Heaven—and said it must be preached to all nations (Matthew 24:14). Christ told His apostles to teach “all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:20), not to create a new message later.
Jesus made it clear that His words will judge every person on the last day: “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48). But Paul, in contrast, said in his gospel the Lord “will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel” (Romans 2:16). This is a serious contradiction. Jesus never said anyone would be judged by Paul’s gospel—only by His own words.
Jesus also warned many times that false teachers would come and deceive many. He said, “Take heed that no one deceives you” (Matthew 24:4), and “If anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it” (Matthew 24:23). Paul claimed to receive his gospel in the wilderness by private revelation, with no earthly witness (Galatians 1:11–12), but Jesus said, “I have spoken openly to the world” (John 18:20). Truth does not come in secret—God’s word is revealed clearly, not through hidden visions.
There is only one gospel—what Jesus taught with His own lips. There is only one Savior—who gave His life without sin and finished the work of redemption. And there is only one judge—Jesus, who will return with His reward and render to every person “according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).
Paul’s claims cannot be above the words of Christ. Jesus said, “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master” (Matthew 10:24). If anyone teaches another gospel, one that adds to or subtracts from the words of Jesus, it is not the gospel of the kingdom.
To all those who raise Paul's words before Christ's, the son of God, I say this, return to Christ, hear His voice, and build on the Rock—not on the words of a man who called himself the chief of sinners, and who claimed to finish what Jesus said was already done.
Time is short, I was warned in 2 visions and one dream we are in Jaccob's trouble and Christ will return this generation, prepare and pray, I am serious. all the signs are around us, many end times prophecy are being fulfilled NOW.
You are equivicating, which is dishonest.
You are one of those who are trying to sneak in with false teaching. And you don't want to get caught.
Much love!
Acts 9:15-16 KJV
15) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16) For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Paul knew the things he would suffer for Christ. He knew what was still undone, and he rejoiced to fulfill all the sufferings he would endure for the sake of building the body of Christ.
Much love!
“Who Do You Believe? The Witnessed Words of Jesus or Paul’s Private Vision?”
This is a false dichotomy. Paul's words are from Jesus.
You are right. You are not saying Paul's writings are false or not from God. But you are obviously promoting that POV. Again, this makes you dishonest.
We are admonished to speak truth to each other. You should be clear and honest, not using crafty words.
Much love!
No contradiction. Paul's Gospel was spoken to him by Jesus. This is a simple thing.
You seem to reject that Jesus gave Paul his teaching. But if you stop with that, you may see the simplicity in the harmony.
Much love!
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