Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Behold]

“man working out his salvation”…

Reader,

If someone Gives you a Brand New TESLA Truck......you have to learn how to use it, as its technology is brand new.

So, also.... once you receive God's "Gift of Salvation" you have to learn how to exist within it, perfectly.
That is how you : "work out your salvation".
You already have it, because you received it as "the Gift of Salvation".... but you have to learn : "what is all this"....>>"How does all this work". "what is the Helmet of Salvation". ".......ect, ect, ect.

And when you come to the perfect knowledge of God by revelations.... that is to understand Your Salvaiton as God understands who you are "in Christ' ...........then you are this one...

"As many as be perfect".

This is "Spiritual Maturity" realized.

A.) Very few Christian will ever get there, because they have not been taught how to do it.

= "God gives, TEACHERS, Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, and Evangelists" for the = "perfecting of the Saints".

AA.) To show you all you need to know, so that you dont end up as a deceived cult member, who is a Hebrews 6:1 "problem" Christian, or worse.

So, The very first KEY l, that unlocks the Knowledge of God,. .that is to "work out your Salvaiton">.. is to do what Hebrews 13:9 says to do with your HEART, or, as the verse explains.....if you dont, then a "doctrine of devils'...a cult theology is going to deceive you and capture you mind nd ruin your faith and your discipleship.

 

[Behold]

“Many are called, but few are chosen.”

The Christian is "chosen IN HIM">....this means that they are born again IN CHRIST.
That is how you are "chosen".

Also, "many are called, but few are chosen"......is explaining that The Cross is always calling everyone to come to Jesus.......but only some will answer the Call , and that is their "Chosen"........."in Christ".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh course he eas saved decades before James but James is pointing out it wasnt just faith that saved Abraham.

James called Paul a liar. I got it!!

You really need to learn to read without comprehension. Faith is completed by works.

It is perfected by works

the more we take steps of faith the stronger our faith gets. And Abraham is proof of this

But abraham was saved in Gen 15. And if you read paul. we are saved by this same faith (trust) in God.

See a man is saved by works AND not by faith ALONE. If faith was sufficient there would be a need to complete faith. Faith doesnt cause works. People have to choose to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, greet strangers, care for the sick and visit people in prison. By choosing to do so they complete their faith just as James said.

your like a record that is skipping because it is damaged

Try reading romans 4

Then read james 2.

and then explain why Paul said no works
]
and james speaks of works, Ilet me help. who was Paul talking to as apposed to who was james talking to)

 

[ProDeo]

Grace teaches us we are sinners. we are rightly judged. and we have no hope.

Correct.

Only through the cross can we be forgiven.

Correct.

We all have multiple death penalties against us. And the only way those death penalties can be redeemed is by God hanging on a cross..

Correct.

But you do not understand grace yourself..

False, it's you not understanding grace, so let's start from scratch.

Now please hear me out and try to understand what I am saying.

God gave the Law to Israel through Moses. The Mosaic Law contained 613 laws Jews were obliged to keep (works). The Mosaic Law ruled for 1500 years and nobody of the million Jews could fulfill the 613 commandments (works). Everyone failed God's holiness. Then Jesus came, fulfilled the Mosaic Law, died for the sins of the world, resurrected as victor and ever since we live under grace and not under the Mosaic Law (works). Crystal clear for us with our electronic Bibles, not so clear in the days of Paul, James, John, Peter, they had to fight the gnostics, fight against the echo of Judaism and the Mosaic Law (works). Now with this background in mind let's consider Scripture.

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

v8 - Without Jesus we are nothing.
v9 - Without Jesus none of our works (not even the works of the Mosaic Law) will save us.
v10 - With Jesus we are saved by grace, but also we are supposed to do good works, bear fruit and a whole lot more, mature in Christ, break away from sin, be obedient.

There is no -- and there can't be -- a contradiction between v9 and v10, both speak of works, v9 about works without Christ, v10 about works with Christ.

With Jesus (thus saved by grace) works, fruits, obedience, fight sin, still matters. The evidence of a born again is a changed life, I assume you agree on that. That there have been a break with the former life we lived without Christ. Well, that's what v10 is about.

Can we agree on this ?

 

[ProDeo]

Jesus often spoke in parables to reveal deep truths in simple stories. One of His most powerful parables is the Wedding Feast, where He compares the kingdom of heaven to a king who prepares a great banquet for his son. This parable, found in Matthew 22, speaks about God's invitation to His people, their response, and the consequences of refusing or taking His call lightly. It also reveals that while many are invited, only those who come prepared and clothed in righteousness will be accepted. Below is the full parable of the Wedding Feast from the (NKJV)

---

The Parable of the Wedding Feast (Matthew 22:1–14, NKJV):​

And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said:​

“The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.​

Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’​

But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.​

But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.​

Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’​

So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.​

But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.​

Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”​

---

In this parable, Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to a king who throws a wedding feast for his son. The king represents God the Father, and the son is Jesus Christ, the Messiah. The wedding is the joyful union between Christ and His faithful people. God first sends out invitations to those already chosen—this refers to Israel, the people who received the promises, the Law, and the prophets. But when the time comes, they refuse to come. Some are indifferent, more interested in their own land or work. Others go further and attack and kill the messengers. These messengers are the prophets and later, Christ’s disciples who preached repentance and the kingdom. Their rejection brings judgment, just as Jesus later weeps over Jerusalem and warns of its destruction, which did come to pass.

After this, the king sends out his servants again, this time to call anyone they can find—good and bad. This shows how the invitation of the kingdom now goes out to all nations. The highway represents the world. Everyone is welcome—regardless of their past—if they are willing to come. The wedding hall fills with guests, showing that the gospel would bring many into the kingdom, including sinners, Gentiles, and those far from God.

But then the king sees one man who came in without a wedding garment. In those times, kings would often provide garments to guests who had none. So this man had no excuse. He had come, but not with respect. He refused to wear what was freely offered. This garment represents righteousness, the clean covering of a changed heart, a life that has turned from sin and honors the Son. The man is speechless because he has nothing to say in his defense. He wanted the feast, but not the obedience. So the king casts him out into outer darkness—a picture of judgment.

Jesus ends with the words, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” This is a sobering truth. God invites many. The gospel goes out freely. But not all accept it, and among those who do, not all remain faithful or enter with reverence. It is not enough to simply hear or accept the invitation. One must come properly, with repentance, and be ready, clothed in righteousness, walking in the light.

This parable is not only a warning to those who reject the call, but also to those who come without truly following Christ. It shows the great love of God—who invites all to the wedding of His Son—but also His holiness, which demands that we respond in the right way. The door is open to all, but the feast is for those who come in truth and remain faithful to the end.

Nice.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is truly a perverted view of God’s forgiveness . . .

Heb. 10:14 is NOT about the idea that we are perfect and cannot get any better. That’s what “perfect” means. It clearly says:
Heb. 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

We are BEING sanctified. This means we are BEING made holy and perfect. “… has made perfect” in this sense is that “He has made complete provision” (past tense) for us. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense to add, “those who are being sanctified” (present tense).

Yes we are being made holy! And it is not a perverted view of God. What is a perverted view is that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god who knows the beginning from the end would give someone eternal life only to take it away later!

And you do not know what perfected means here. Also you do not know the difference between our position and our daily walk with God! You create your own definition of "perfected" (by your "sense") to alter what was written. the author wrote what he meant and not some "sense".

You imply God doesn't know what will happen next and that if you do nto forgive someone- God takes away all the things He promised you and has already given you!

And it makes perfect sense when you look at teh whole of New TEstament Soteriology! You see that god has already seated us in heavenly places, perfected forever (past once for all done), has justified us, glorified us, translated us out of darkness in tot eh kingdom of Jesus, given us eternal life, hid our life in Jesus, has begun a good work in us that He shall perform until that dday! This is our position in Jesus. Plus we are new Creatures, born again, not condemend

In our experience, we still fail and must acknowledge our sin. We walk in grace and not in sin so grace can continue to abound. We fall, get up. It is not about living a better life, it is about exchanging our old man for the new man who is being conformed (not might) to Jesus.

Born-again John tells his born-again readers:
1 John 1:9
If WE confess OUR sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US OUR sins and to cleanse US from all unrighteousness.

We need to confess our sins WHENEVER we sin . .

And I never implied we shouldn't for we should. But sin does not remove our salvation. Remember this:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. And before you get in a snit about the word might, it is the subjunctive and Paul is writing in a generic aense that whoever does all the rest will become th erighteeousness of Jesus! He became my sin, and when I trusted in His death and resurrection for my sin- I became His righteousness! You should spend time enjoying the fact you cannot lose your salvation!

 

[Taken]

Reader,

If someone Gives you a Brand New TESLA Truck......you have to learn how to use it, as its technology is brand new.

So, also.... once you receive God's "Gift of Salvation" you have to learn how to exist within it, perfectly.
That is how you : "work out your salvation".

What is the Objective to “work out”
one’s Salvation.

How is To “work out” one’s Salvation IS BY MAKING the thoughts of their own MIND submissive TO the thoughts in their “new spirit”, IN their hearts ..

WHY is Because that
new spirits Thoughts IS BEING FED BY the Spirit of God, Whose Thoughts, Knowledge, Truth, Understanding IS Supreme Above All.

You already have it, because you received it as "the Gift of Salvation".... but you have to learn : "what is all this"....>>"How does all this work". "what is the Helmet of Salvation". ".......ect, ect, ect.

Are you presuming I was wondering, not informed What Having Salvation means?
Or simply stating your Standing?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Correct.



Correct.



Correct.



False, it's you not understanding grace, so let's start from scratch.

No it is you who does not understand

grace is free to the reciever, paid in full by the giver. it is uunmerited favor. It is what saves

As paul said for it is by Grace I have been saved by faith. And not of myself. it is the GIFT of God. not of works lest I should boast.

But he also said those saved by grace will do something. but thats another topic altogether

our discussion is on the salvation process. not the results of being saved

Now please hear me out and try to understand what I am saying.

God gave the Law to Israel through Moses. The Mosaic Law contained 613 laws Jews were obliged to keep (works). The Mosaic Law ruled for 1500 years and nobody of the million Jews could fulfill the 613 commandments (works). Everyone failed God's holiness. Then Jesus came, fulfilled the Mosaic Law, died for the sins of the world, resurrected as victor and ever since we live under grace and not under the Mosaic Law (works). Crystal clear for us with our electronic Bibles, not so clear in the days of Paul, James, John, Peter, they had to fight the gnostics, fight against the echo of Judaism and the Mosaic Law (works). Now with this background in mind let's consider Scripture.

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

v8 - Without Jesus we are nothing.
v9 - Without Jesus none of our works (not even the works of the Mosaic Law) will save us.

Here is where you fail

With our without Jesus, NON OF OUR WORKS CAN SAVE US.

If me obeying a set of rules or commands, of following tradition or doing religious works. or doing anythign could save ourselves. jesus would never have to die on the cross.

v10 - With Jesus we are saved by grace, but also we are supposed to do good works, bear fruit and a whole lot more, mature in Christ, break away from sin, be obedient.

You are sort of right

we who are saved are created into new creatures. That new creation will do good works. because it is what we were created to do.

These works WILL happen, its not a matter of if. But not everyone will produce alot of works (fruit) some may produce hardly any at all.. and as jesus said, their rewards will be tried by fire and they will be left with ASH.. But they themselves will still be saved, even as through fire.

There is no -- and there can't be -- a contradiction between v9 and v10, both speak of works, v9 about works without Christ, v10 about works with Christ.

There is no contradiction

vs 8 - 9

I have been saved..

My salvation was accomplished by the grace of God

It was recieved in faith

It could never be earned by works

so I can never boast

vs 10, the end result of us having been saved, is we are new creatures. created for works.. We can not live in sin any longer as John said in his epistle. because we have been born of God. God changes us..

my only understanding why people would focus on sin is they do not have faith God will or can change us.. and because they do not really believe they are fully forgiven.. otherwise. as paul said, even our tribulation will be like a momentary light affliction.

With Jesus (thus saved by grace) works, fruits, obedience, fight sin, still matters.

I never said they do not

now are you going to continue to bear false witness against me, or are you going to confess you have misunderstood me?

The evidence of a born again is a changed life,

God needs evidence? since when?

I assume you agree on that. That there have been a break with the former life we lived without Christ. Well, that's what v10 is about.

vs ten is about a new creation who is able now by the power of God and out of gratitude to do works.

It has nothing to do with being saved, staying saved, or losing salvation.

Can we agree on this ?

as long as you do not say vs 10 is required to maintain salvation.. Then yes. I have never stated otherwise.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes we are being made holy! And it is not a perverted view of God. What is a perverted view is that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god who knows the beginning from the end would give someone eternal life only to take it away later!

God doesn’t “take back” anything. It’s NOT that difficult to understand,

For example – I give you a gift for your birthday.
It’s yours and I will never demand it back from you.
However, one day you lose interest in it and sell it.

Like any other gift - salvation can be discarded.

And you do not know what perfected means here. Also you do not know the difference between our position and our daily walk with God! You create your own definition of "perfected" (by your "sense") to alter what was written. the author wrote what he meant and not some "sense".

His PLAN for you is perfect.

YOU are still being perfected (sanctified).

You imply God doesn't know what will happen next and that if you do nto forgive someone- God takes away all the things He promised you and has already given you!

And it makes perfect sense when you look at teh whole of New TEstament Soteriology! You see that god has already seated us in heavenly places, perfected forever (past once for all done), has justified us, glorified us, translated us out of darkness in tot eh kingdom of Jesus, given us eternal life, hid our life in Jesus, has begun a good work in us that He shall perform until that dday! This is our position in Jesus. Plus we are new Creatures, born again, not condemend

In our experience, we still fail and must acknowledge our sin. We walk in grace and not in sin so grace can continue to abound. We fall, get up. It is not about living a better life, it is about exchanging our old man for the new man who is being conformed (not might) to Jesus.

Again – it’s NOT about God “taking away” anything.

It’s about US throwing it back in His face. When we sin, we damage our relationship with Him. It is resolved when we come back to Him humbly, in repentance.

And I never implied we shouldn't for we should. But sin does not remove our salvation. Remember this:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. And before you get in a snit about the word might, it is the subjunctive and Paul is writing in a generic aense that whoever does all the rest will become th erighteeousness of Jesus! He became my sin, and when I trusted in His death and resurrection for my sin- I became His righteousness! You should spend time enjoying the fact you cannot lose your salvation!

And YOU should spend more time heeding the warnings of Scripture that state that you absolutely CAN lose your secure position . . .

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Clearly showing that a born-again believer CAN fall away and be LOST.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
Our salvation is conditional on out cooperation with God's grace.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Yes we are being made holy! And it is not a perverted view of God. What is a perverted view is that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god who knows the beginning from the end would give someone eternal life only to take it away later!

And you do not know what perfected means here. Also you do not know the difference between our position and our daily walk with God! You create your own definition of "perfected" (by your "sense") to alter what was written. the author wrote what he meant and not some "sense".

You imply God doesn't know what will happen next and that if you do nto forgive someone- God takes away all the things He promised you and has already given you!

And it makes perfect sense when you look at teh whole of New TEstament Soteriology! You see that god has already seated us in heavenly places, perfected forever (past once for all done), has justified us, glorified us, translated us out of darkness in tot eh kingdom of Jesus, given us eternal life, hid our life in Jesus, has begun a good work in us that He shall perform until that dday! This is our position in Jesus. Plus we are new Creatures, born again, not condemend

In our experience, we still fail and must acknowledge our sin. We walk in grace and not in sin so grace can continue to abound. We fall, get up. It is not about living a better life, it is about exchanging our old man for the new man who is being conformed (not might) to Jesus.

And I never implied we shouldn't for we should. But sin does not remove our salvation. Remember this:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. And before you get in a snit about the word might, it is the subjunctive and Paul is writing in a generic aense that whoever does all the rest will become th erighteeousness of Jesus! He became my sin, and when I trusted in His death and resurrection for my sin- I became His righteousness! You should spend time enjoying the fact you cannot lose your salvation!

"Yes we are being made holy! And it is not a perverted view of God. What is a perverted view is that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god who knows the beginning from the end would give someone eternal life only to take it away later!"

Ronald, when do you receive eternal life? immediately when you believe? what does the bible say?

According to the words of Jesus and the Revelation given to John, eternal life is not fully received at the moment of belief, but is a future inheritance, granted at the resurrection, after a life of faithful obedience. While faith opens the path, eternal life is promised only to those who endure, overcome, and do the will of God until the end.

Jesus never said eternal life is a present possession. Instead, He taught it is something to be inherited in “the age to come” (Luke 18:30; Matthew 19:29). He tied it to the last day resurrection, saying, “everyone who believes… I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:40). Belief begins the journey, but resurrection is when life is given.

He also warned that final judgment will be based on what each person has done:
“Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation”(John 5:29). This confirms that eternal life is not automatic—it is the reward of righteousness.

Revelation echoes this truth. Jesus says, “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10). Only those who overcome will eat from the tree of life and enter the holy city (Revelation 2:7; 22:14). Eternal life is for those who do His commandments, not merely believe.

Eternal life is not given at the start of faith, but at its end—at the resurrection, to those who have walked the narrow path, kept the commandments, and remained faithful. As Jesus said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13).

this is what the bible teaches.

 

[ProDeo]

No it is you who does not understand

grace is free to the reciever, paid in full by the giver. it is uunmerited favor. It is what saves

As paul said for it is by Grace I have been saved by faith. And not of myself. it is the GIFT of God. not of works lest I should boast.

But he also said those saved by grace will do something. but thats another topic altogether

our discussion is on the salvation process. not the results of being saved

Here is where you fail

With our without Jesus, NON OF OUR WORKS CAN SAVE US.

If me obeying a set of rules or commands, of following tradition or doing religious works. or doing anythign could save ourselves. jesus would never have to die on the cross.

You are sort of right

we who are saved are created into new creatures. That new creation will do good works. because it is what we were created to do.

These works WILL happen, its not a matter of if. But not everyone will produce alot of works (fruit) some may produce hardly any at all.. and as jesus said, their rewards will be tried by fire and they will be left with ASH.. But they themselves will still be saved, even as through fire.





There is no contradiction

vs 8 - 9

I have been saved..

My salvation was accomplished by the grace of God

It was recieved in faith

It could never be earned by works

so I can never boast

vs 10, the end result of us having been saved, is we are new creatures. created for works.. We can not live in sin any longer as John said in his epistle. because we have been born of God. God changes us..

my only understanding why people would focus on sin is they do not have faith God will or can change us.. and because they do not really believe they are fully forgiven.. otherwise. as paul said, even our tribulation will be like a momentary light affliction.



I never said they do not

now are you going to continue to bear false witness against me, or are you going to confess you have misunderstood me?

God needs evidence? since when?

vs ten is about a new creation who is able now by the power of God and out of gratitude to do works.

It has nothing to do with being saved, staying saved, or losing salvation.



as long as you do not say vs 10 is required to maintain salvation.. Then yes. I have never stated otherwise.

Okay, we made progress.

On v10 - when you came to Christ, you became a new creation, made changes in your life, that is work / fruits.

What if you would not have made any changes and kept doing the sinful things of your past, would you still be saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Coming from a modern day pharisee I would expect this kind of remark. Not based on fact. just trying to evade the real issue

Whatever! You will make any excuse you can to ignore the facts.

The facts are if it is of Grace, it is not of works. otherwise. As paul said clearly and I have shown you multiple times now. Grace is no longer grace.

Hyper grace as people are calling it is no different than those Jude condemned. That peter warned about. and that James tried to expose.. rthose who think you can say some sinners prayer. Claim you have faith. and you are saved even though you have never repented. and have no faith in God at all.. (you also think your sins can not condemn you to begin with)

Grace teaches us we are sinners. we are rightly judged. and we have no hope. Only through the cross can we be forgiven. We all have multiple death penalties against us. And the only way those death penalties can be redeemed is by God hanging on a cross..

But you do not understand grace yourself..So I would not expect you to understand this

Dude, back off. I am not glossing over sin. If anything I hold sin to a higher accord that you do. so as with many conversations. do not accuse the one your talking to of what you are doing yourself.

James said if I by accident and stumble and break one command, I am cursed.. The law required perfection. If we break one command, we are cursed.

Jesus said be perfect as your faith is perfect. Explaining to the jews if they want to get to God by their own merit, that is what is required.

I do not water down the law like you do.

who said anything about glossing over sin?

Now YOU are falsly accusing, because you have no comprehension of what I am saying.

If your not going to listen. but try to put me in a corner with what you THINK I am saying

Then I will move on and turn you over to God

Nope.

It is GRACE

I WAS SAVED BY GRACE.. But God did not force me to receive his gift. I had to receive it in faith

NOT OF WORKS.. Why do you insist you can redeem your death penalty because you went out and did a good deed? Why do you Mock God and the cross? Then accuse me of reducing the affect of sin.

All sin has consequences. But for the believer it is far worse. because we not only suffer the consequences, We suffer the chastening of God, Maybe you have never experienced this and that's why you do not understand it?





I never said otherwise

But me asking for forgiveness does not restore me to salvation. God did not kick me out of his family until I ask for forgiveness.


Matt 28, Make disciples. baptize THEM

Notice what Jesus said

get them saved first. bring them into the family. then baptize them

Now you are falsly accusing again, who said anything about not having to obey

You really need to learn how to properly listen and understand what people are saying

False accusation.

You should be ashamed.

you do not want it to be a salovation issue. You want to pump your chest/. Tell God and the world how great you are. and water down the law so you can make yourself think you are ok.

well you will find out one day.

EG
Persons that believe that we must obey God do NOT want to pump their chest, as you said.

They want to obey the very God that saved them.
We are told to obey God throughout the entire bible.

That any amount of verses are necessary is rather disconcerting to be honest.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a typical hyper-grace remark.

From gotquestions which is OSAS [!!] we read -

The term hyper-grace has been used to describe a new wave of teaching that emphasizes the grace of God to the exclusion of other vital teachings such as repentance and confession of sin. Hyper-grace teachers maintain that all sin, past, present, and future, has already been forgiven, so there is no need for a believer to ever confess it. Hyper-grace teaching says that, when God looks at us, He sees only a holy and righteous people. The conclusion of hyper-grace teaching is that we are not bound by Jesus’ teaching, even as we are not under the Law; that believers are not responsible for their sin; and that anyone who disagrees is a pharisaical legalist.

You know EG, during our talks I noticed a pattern, you say a lot of things but at the same time you quickly bow out on and gloss over sin, I notice the same pattern in your talks with @GodsGrace whenever she speaks about obedience to Christ.

Even in this post of yours, you do, for instance



And there you go : hyper-grace.

We are sinners saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, my Savior, your Savior. When we are born again we remain what we are sinners and when we sin we are not going to gloss over it, period.

1Joh 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Joh 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Joh 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Instead you said :

For it is by grace I have been saved through faith (it is a completed action. nothing more needs to be done

Once again, that's hyper-grace.

Whenever you sin, you ask for forgiveness.




Do you realize what you are saying here ?

According to you :

1. Baptism is not needed for salvation and that's true if you have a good reason for it, but Christ is clear [ Matt 28:19 ] instead you know better and say, no Lord, not needed. --> disobedience.

2. You don't have to follow Jesus teachings ?? --> disobedience, same Matt 28:19

3. You don't have to confess your sins ???

No Lord I don't have to do all that, I am saved, remember Lord? --> © @Eternally Grateful



Nonsense, OSAS is not a salvation issue, another sign of hyper-grace.

Great post ProDeo.
Yes, some will tell me I'm not saved due to incorrect doctrine.....
that because I do not believe in OSAS,,,,I must not be saved.


Could you imagine if it was our DOCTRINE that saves us?
Most of humanity would be going to that other place.

Happily for us it's our BELIEF in God and our OBEDIENCE to God that saves us.
Simple as that.

The gospel teaches that God has made a way for us to be able to have a relationship with Him that was lost due to Adam...
that way is Jesus.

Then we go on to learn that God wants obedience...
Jesus left us with commands....The two Great Commands would suffice, but there are many more.

Those who do not seem to believe that obedience is important
are not following Jesus' teachings.

Some on these Forums state that going good works is sinful because we add to the work of the cross.

All Jesus did was to teach good works !

 

[Behold]

Some on these Forums state that going good works is sinful because we add to the work of the cross.

The "sin" is to teach that you have to do good works after you are saved, to keep from losing your salvation.

This teaching replaces (rejects) Christ as Savior with your works and self effort and obedience.

So, its not the "good works" and "obedience" that are the issue......Its the "fallen from grace" people who are trying to keep themselves saved by doing works//obedience, who dont understand God's "GIFT of salvation, who are the issue ...who are teaching their "self saving" Legalism, on forums and in pulpits and in commentaries and utube videos, and on TV.

 

[GodsGrace]

The "sin" is to teach that you have to do good works after you are saved, to keep from losing your salvation.

This teaching replaces (rejects) Christ as Savior with your works and self effort and obedience.

So, its not the "good works" and "obedience" that are the issue......Its the "fallen from grace" people who are trying to keep themselves saved by doing works//obedience, who dont understand God's "GIFT of salvation, who are the issue ...who are teaching their "self saving" Legalism, on forums and in pulpits and in commentaries and utube videos, and on TV.

§The sin, Behold, is to teach that we are not required to do good works AFTER salvation,
as Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father


Matthew 25:41-46
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Why do you preach against what Jesus taught?

Jesus taught that we are to do good works or go to eternal punishment.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay, we made progress.

On v10 - when you came to Christ, you became a new creation, made changes in your life, that is work / fruits.

1 God changed me,
2. But yes. this is a work. its called producing fruit.

What if you would not have made any changes and kept doing the sinful things of your past, would you still be saved?

did I have any faith at all if this was true? Did I repent if this is true?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG
Persons that believe that we must obey God do NOT want to pump their chest, as you said.

They do if they are claiming this is how they are saved, or this has anything to do with a persons final destiny.

I know this is hard for you to see. yet you claim you do not teach works also. so it is understandable

They want to obey the very God that saved them.
We are told to obey God throughout the entire bible.

But do you really believe God saved you?

That any amount of verses are necessary is rather disconcerting to be honest.

Like the amount of verses I have given you that proves there is no works to be saved? But the work of God that we believe or trust in him, and we will live forever?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Great post ProDeo.
Yes, some will tell me I'm not saved due to incorrect doctrine.....
that because I do not believe in OSAS,,,,I must not be saved.

Believeing or not believing in osas is not what saves a person

what saves a person is where is their faith? In God. Or in God and self or self?

Those that have faith in God believe in OSAS

those who have faith in self. reject OSAS.

Could you imagine if it was our DOCTRINE that saves us?
Most of humanity would be going to that other place.

Happily for us it's our BELIEF in God and our OBEDIENCE to God that saves us.
Simple as that.

See. Your works. Your faith is in your obedience. Not God..

The gospel teaches that God has made a way for us to be able to have a relationship with Him that was lost due to Adam...
that way is Jesus.

Yes. But before this relationship can happen. WE MUST BE SAVED.

Then we go on to learn that God wants obedience...
Jesus left us with commands....The two Great Commands would suffice, but there are many more.

And here we agree.. But again, if your not saved, you can not do any of this

Those who do not seem to believe that obedience is important
are not following Jesus' teachings.

Who teaches that obedience is not important? That we can continue to live in sin all we want?

I have yet to meet anyone who believes this nonsense.

Although James and Jude appose them, and John said they have never met or known God.

Some on these Forums state that going good works is sinful because we add to the work of the cross.

Again, You lie

doing good works is a result of salvation. This is a great thing, as we are rewarded for our works, and our works bring people to christ

what is sinful is saying your works have anything to do with your salvation.

Most of pauls teachings were fighting this legalism

All Jesus did was to teach good works !

Yes. to those WHO ARE SAVED.

to those who are not yet saved, HE TAUGHT GRACE AND MERCY. (all the verses I have given you multiple times

 

[GodsGrace]

They do if they are claiming this is how they are saved, or this has anything to do with a persons final destiny.

I know this is hard for you to see. yet you claim you do not teach works also. so it is understandable

But do you really believe God saved you?

Like the amount of verses I have given you that proves there is no works to be saved? But the work of God that we believe or trust in him, and we will live forever?

You've provided verses that we are to BELIEVE.

Not getting into the definition of BELIEVE again.

Been trying for 10 years with you --- I give up.

But those reading along should either know what BELIEVE means,
or they should find out if in any doubt.

And as to works having something to do with one's final destiny...
Let's see what JESUS has to say about it:

Matthew 25:45-46
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Jesus is teaching that those that did NOT do good works will go away into punishment.

 

[GodsGrace]

Believeing or not believing in osas is not what saves a person

what saves a person is where is their faith? In God. Or in God and self or self?

Those that have faith in God believe in OSAS

those who have faith in self. reject OSAS.

You've correctly stated your position !
Which is why you've told me, more than once, that I must not be saved.

WE don't have FAITH IN SELF EG.
No Christian does.

We have faith in what Jesus taught...and Paul and all the writers.

They taught that we are to obey God....
obeying God means doing the good works Jesus spoke of.

I just mentioned Matthew 25...there's plenty more.

Matthew 7:12
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 7:23
Matthew 7:24
John 15:2
John 15:6

and more...

See. Your works. Your faith is in your obedience. Not God..

Yes. But before this relationship can happen. WE MUST BE SAVED.

Right.
We must be saved FIRST.

Need I repeat?
The UNSAVED are NOT required to obey God.

The SAVED ARE required to obey God.

John 3:36 those who do not obey will have the wrath of God on them.

And here we agree.. But again, if your not saved, you can not do any of this

Right.
Who ever said otherwise.

Later for your comments below...

Who teaches that obedience is not important? That we can continue to live in sin all we want?

I have yet to meet anyone who believes this nonsense.

Although James and Jude appose them, and John said they have never met or known God.

Again, You lie

doing good works is a result of salvation. This is a great thing, as we are rewarded for our works, and our works bring people to christ

what is sinful is saying your works have anything to do with your salvation.

Most of pauls teachings were fighting this legalism



Yes. to those WHO ARE SAVED.

to those who are not yet saved, HE TAUGHT GRACE AND MERCY. (all the verses I have given you multiple times