BEWARE OF THE SPIRITUALIZERS HERE

[Davy]

There are certain ones come here that SPIRITUALIZE The Bible prophecies with pushing FALSEHOODS about endtime prophecy, and Jesus' future return to BEGIN His establishing of HIS FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM here on earth.

ANY... idea that TODAY, that all endtime prophecy had already been fulfilled back at Jesus' 1st coming, or at 70 A.D., etc., and that Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME HERE ON EARTH, is a DOCTRINE OF PAGAN GNOSTICISM.

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

In the 2nd century A.D., mystic Gnostics influenced by Greek Platonism, Neoplatonism, esoteric Greek philosophy and the Occult, crept into the early Christian Church. Some of the early Church fathers wrote many warnings about them (like Irenaeus). The Gnostics reject Christ's literal death on the cross, and instead believe that His disciples removed Him before He died, and that He married and had children, and lived to old age. That is no better way for Satan to get the deceived to deny Christ's Salvation by Faith on His death and resurrection. If Jesus Christ did not 'literally' die on the cross, then it would mean there is no Salvation Plan.

1. One of the major Bible prophecies given the Church about the very end of this world is that of a one-world beast kingdom setup over all the earth that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns (Revelation 13:1). And Revelation 13:2 links it to the beast descriptions in Daniel 7. Included with that established one-world beast kingdom over ALL nations and peoples at the end, is the "another beast" mentioned later in that Revelation 13 Chapter which represents the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah that Lord Jesus warned His Church about for the end per Matthew 24:23-26. Apostle Paul also warned about the coming of that false one at the end, prior to Christ's future return, per 2 Thessalonians 2.

2. But what these false apostles that belong to that "another Jesus" instead preach today, is that Christ's Kingdom was ALREADY ESTABLISHED on earth at His 1st coming! That even though Lord Jesus was emphatic in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning NOT of this present time. Instead, God's Word in many Scriptures reveal Christ's LITERAL Kingdom only will come at His FUTURE 2nd coming, which still has NOT happened yet today!

What did Lord Jesus establish at His 1st coming and death and resurrection? He established His SPIRITUAL KINGDOM only, through His Church on earth. Does that means Christian organizations by men, Church buildings and properties, represent His Kingdom today on earth?? NO! Christ's Church today is of The SPIRIT. No man can destroy, no angel can destroy, Satan cannot touch it! It is because it is of The SPIRIT through His body of many members. This is what Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians 2, the Church's foundation being of the prophets and Apostles, with Christ Jesus as it Cornerstone. Thus the TRUE CHURCH of The SPIRIT is what Lord Jesus established on earth at His 1st coming. That is the Kingdom that has already come.

However, God's Word speaks of a FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM with Lord Jesus Christ having LITERALLY RETURNED to earth, to REIGN over ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES with a "rod of iron". And His elect are to literally reign in that future Kingdom with Him. That has NOT... happened yet today! But those deceived by Gnosticism believe all that has already been established today.

What this means is, those deceived with following Gnosticism's false belief that Christ's Kingdom is already established today on earth, they are actually WORKING IN SUPPORT OF THE DEVIL'S COMING ONE-WORLD BEAST KINGDOM to be setup at the very end of this present world. They are NOT prepared for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end, nor against deception to BOWING IN WORSHIP to the first supernatural Messiah that shows up in Jerusalem, which will NOT BE OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. They are being directed and lied to by false apostles, Satan's servants who disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11).

 

[Davy]

Lord Jesus Christ warned us about the fallacy of believing that the Kingdom had come at His 1st coming in the PHYSICAL SENSE.

Luke 17:20-23
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

22 And He said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, 'See here; or, see there': go not after them, nor follow them.
KJV

Then Lord Jesus said the following...

Luke 17:24
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.
KJV

Putting all the above Scripture together, Lord Jesus is showing that His Kingdom then is not by observation, meaning not an outward manifesting, but is instead WITHIN YOU. By that idea He referred to The SPIRIT and thus The Holy Spirit given the believer on Him. THAT... is the Kingdom which He established at His 1st coming! And it is manifested today on earth through His Church, but not by buildings and cathedrals, but by The Holy Spirit within us.

THEN... in the next verses, Lord Jesus WARNS against those who will say, "Lo here! or there!" or "See here; or, see there", like a visual observation that His Kingdom had come. He then commands us who remain Faithful to NOT go after them, nor follow them.

And finally, in the Luke 17:24 verse, Jesus contrasts how His future coming will be, vs. the coming of the false-Messiah that comes first. The deceived by false-Messiah are those who will say that, "See herel or, see there", when the false-Messiah arrives with their announcing him. But when Jesus comes EVERYONE will know and SEE His coming, just as many can see lightning flash across the sky! No one will have to come up to us and say, "Lo, Christ is here, or there".

Such are those like TribulationSigns, and WPM apparently, that wrongly push a Kingdom Now theory from Satan's host, and thus wrongly turning God's written Word upside down against the FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM that Christ will manifest here on earth at His 2nd coming!

 

[WPM]

There are certain ones come here that SPIRITUALIZE The Bible prophecies with pushing FALSEHOODS about endtime prophecy, and Jesus' future return to BEGIN His establishing of HIS FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM here on earth.

ANY... idea that TODAY, that all endtime prophecy had already been fulfilled back at Jesus' 1st coming, or at 70 A.D., etc., and that Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME HERE ON EARTH, is a DOCTRINE OF PAGAN GNOSTICISM.

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

In the 2nd century A.D., mystic Gnostics influenced by Greek Platonism, Neoplatonism, esoteric Greek philosophy and the Occult, crept into the early Christian Church. Some of the early Church fathers wrote many warnings about them (like Irenaeus). The Gnostics reject Christ's literal death on the cross, and instead believe that His disciples removed Him before He died, and that He married and had children, and lived to old age. That is no better way for Satan to get the deceived to deny Christ's Salvation by Faith on His death and resurrection. If Jesus Christ did not 'literally' die on the cross, then it would mean there is no Salvation Plan.

1. One of the major Bible prophecies given the Church about the very end of this world is that of a one-world beast kingdom setup over all the earth that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns (Revelation 13:1). And Revelation 13:2 links it to the beast descriptions in Daniel 7. Included with that established one-world beast kingdom over ALL nations and peoples at the end, is the "another beast" mentioned later in that Revelation 13 Chapter which represents the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah that Lord Jesus warned His Church about for the end per Matthew 24:23-26. Apostle Paul also warned about the coming of that false one at the end, prior to Christ's future return, per 2 Thessalonians 2.

2. But what these false apostles that belong to that "another Jesus" instead preach today, is that Christ's Kingdom was ALREADY ESTABLISHED on earth at His 1st coming! That even though Lord Jesus was emphatic in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning NOT of this present time. Instead, God's Word in many Scriptures reveal Christ's LITERAL Kingdom only will come at His FUTURE 2nd coming, which still has NOT happened yet today!

What did Lord Jesus establish at His 1st coming and death and resurrection? He established His SPIRITUAL KINGDOM only, through His Church on earth. Does that means Christian organizations by men, Church buildings and properties, represent His Kingdom today on earth?? NO! Christ's Church today is of The SPIRIT. No man can destroy, no angel can destroy, Satan cannot touch it! It is because it is of The SPIRIT through His body of many members. This is what Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians 2, the Church's foundation being of the prophets and Apostles, with Christ Jesus as it Cornerstone. Thus the TRUE CHURCH of The SPIRIT is what Lord Jesus established on earth at His 1st coming. That is the Kingdom that has already come.

However, God's Word speaks of a FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM with Lord Jesus Christ having LITERALLY RETURNED to earth, to REIGN over ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES with a "rod of iron". And His elect are to literally reign in that future Kingdom with Him. That has NOT... happened yet today! But those deceived by Gnosticism belief all that has already been established today.

What this means is, those deceived with following Gnosticism's false belief that Christ's Kingdom is already established today on earth, they are actually WORKING IN SUPPORT OF THE DEVIL'S COMING ONE-WORLD BEAST KINGDOM to be setup at the very end of this present world. They are NOT prepared for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end, nor against deception to BOWING IN WORSHIP to the first supernatural Messiah that shows up in Jerusalem, which will NOT BE OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. They are being directed and lied to by false apostles, Satan's servants who disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11).

LOL. Let's put your wild claims to the test and see who the real spiritualizers are and who the real literalists are. I put it to you it is the Premils who are the real spiritualizers and Amils who the real literalists!

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

1. Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do do you believe that Jesus is literally coming "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
5. Do do you believe that the wicked shall literally "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)?
6. What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
7. Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
9. Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
10. Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
11. Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

 

[WPM]

There are certain ones come here that SPIRITUALIZE The Bible prophecies with pushing FALSEHOODS about endtime prophecy, and Jesus' future return to BEGIN His establishing of HIS FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM here on earth.

ANY... idea that TODAY, that all endtime prophecy had already been fulfilled back at Jesus' 1st coming, or at 70 A.D., etc., and that Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME HERE ON EARTH, is a DOCTRINE OF PAGAN GNOSTICISM.

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

In the 2nd century A.D., mystic Gnostics influenced by Greek Platonism, Neoplatonism, esoteric Greek philosophy and the Occult, crept into the early Christian Church. Some of the early Church fathers wrote many warnings about them (like Irenaeus). The Gnostics reject Christ's literal death on the cross, and instead believe that His disciples removed Him before He died, and that He married and had children, and lived to old age. That is no better way for Satan to get the deceived to deny Christ's Salvation by Faith on His death and resurrection. If Jesus Christ did not 'literally' die on the cross, then it would mean there is no Salvation Plan.

1. One of the major Bible prophecies given the Church about the very end of this world is that of a one-world beast kingdom setup over all the earth that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns (Revelation 13:1). And Revelation 13:2 links it to the beast descriptions in Daniel 7. Included with that established one-world beast kingdom over ALL nations and peoples at the end, is the "another beast" mentioned later in that Revelation 13 Chapter which represents the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah that Lord Jesus warned His Church about for the end per Matthew 24:23-26. Apostle Paul also warned about the coming of that false one at the end, prior to Christ's future return, per 2 Thessalonians 2.

2. But what these false apostles that belong to that "another Jesus" instead preach today, is that Christ's Kingdom was ALREADY ESTABLISHED on earth at His 1st coming! That even though Lord Jesus was emphatic in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning NOT of this present time. Instead, God's Word in many Scriptures reveal Christ's LITERAL Kingdom only will come at His FUTURE 2nd coming, which still has NOT happened yet today!

What did Lord Jesus establish at His 1st coming and death and resurrection? He established His SPIRITUAL KINGDOM only, through His Church on earth. Does that means Christian organizations by men, Church buildings and properties, represent His Kingdom today on earth?? NO! Christ's Church today is of The SPIRIT. No man can destroy, no angel can destroy, Satan cannot touch it! It is because it is of The SPIRIT through His body of many members. This is what Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians 2, the Church's foundation being of the prophets and Apostles, with Christ Jesus as it Cornerstone. Thus the TRUE CHURCH of The SPIRIT is what Lord Jesus established on earth at His 1st coming. That is the Kingdom that has already come.

However, God's Word speaks of a FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM with Lord Jesus Christ having LITERALLY RETURNED to earth, to REIGN over ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES with a "rod of iron". And His elect are to literally reign in that future Kingdom with Him. That has NOT... happened yet today! But those deceived by Gnosticism belief all that has already been established today.

What this means is, those deceived with following Gnosticism's false belief that Christ's Kingdom is already established today on earth, they are actually WORKING IN SUPPORT OF THE DEVIL'S COMING ONE-WORLD BEAST KINGDOM to be setup at the very end of this present world. They are NOT prepared for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end, nor against deception to BOWING IN WORSHIP to the first supernatural Messiah that shows up in Jerusalem, which will NOT BE OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. They are being directed and lied to by false apostles, Satan's servants who disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11).

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?
13. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus will rule over his enemies for a thousand years after the second coming?
14. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the saints rule over mortal humanity for a thousand years?
15. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the glorified Church will rule in the Millennial era, causing all on earth to submit to the rule of Christ at that time?
16. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the restoring of Israel back to her old covenant theocratic status in a future millennium?
17. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Israel retaking her ancient borders in a future millennium?
18. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit 1000 years after the second coming?
19. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as the sand of the sea?
20. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
21. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
22. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second (or 3rd for Pretribbers) rapture when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
23. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second glorification when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
24. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 last days periods - one before the second coming and one after?
25. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths one with sin, sinners and corruption in it and the other perfect?

 

[Randy Kluth]

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?
13. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus will rule over his enemies for a thousand years after the second coming?
14. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the saints rule over mortal humanity for a thousand years?
15. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the glorified Church will rule in the Millennial era, causing all on earth to submit to the rule of Christ at that time?
16. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the restoring of Israel back to her old covenant theocratic status in a future millennium?
17. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Israel retaking her ancient borders in a future millennium?
18. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit 1000 years after the second coming?
19. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as the sand of the sea?
20. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
21. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
22. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second (or 3rd for Pretribbers) rapture when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
23. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second glorification when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
24. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 last days periods - one before the second coming and one after?
25. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths one with sin, sinners and corruption in it and the other perfect?

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics. post #582
I've answered these points before in the thread,

"The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics."​

• Thread starterWPM
• Start dateAug 4, 2022

The Chiliasts presented their Premil views with a lack of detail, consistency, and organization perhaps because they had not yet faced future challenges by Amils. They did share with Amils, however, a lack of faith in large-scale Jewish reformation and recovery, which modern Premils see as consistent with what is to take place in a literal Millennium.

This weakness in rejecting hope in a future salvation of national Israel caused the Chiliast position to recede, as the Amil position, affirming the "replacement" of the Jews and Israel with Christians and the Church, found opportunity to establish itself through most of NT history.

But the Amils, as well as the Chiliasts, could not have anticipated that the Jews would recollect in a modern state of Israel, suggesting there really may be hope for a Millennial recovery for national Israel. Premils, therefore, carry the early Premil torch for the Chiliasts, but reject their denial of a Jewish national salvation.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.21 (St. Irenaeus)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Irenaeus presents Satan as bound *legally* at the Cross (Book 5, Ch. 21, 3.):
...yet his power consists in transgression and apostasy, and with these he bound man [to himself]; so again, on the other hand, it was necessary that through man himself he should, when conquered, be bound with the same chains with which he had bound man, in order that man, being set free, might return to his Lord, leaving to him (Satan) those bonds by which he himself had been fettered, that is, sin. For when Satan is bound, man is set free; since none can enter a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless he first bind the strong man himself.

And yet here, Irenaeus contrasts the legal binding of Satan at the Cross with the eschatological binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming to begin the literal Millennium...

Against Heresies Book 3, Ch. 23
7. For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy's head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head — which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon; — indicating that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and that He should bind the dragon, that old serpent Revelation 20:2 and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered Luke 10:19 so that all his might should be trodden down.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are certain ones come here that SPIRITUALIZE The Bible prophecies with pushing FALSEHOODS about endtime prophecy, and Jesus' future return to BEGIN His establishing of HIS FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM here on earth.

ANY... idea that TODAY, that all endtime prophecy had already been fulfilled back at Jesus' 1st coming, or at 70 A.D., etc., and that Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME HERE ON EARTH, is a DOCTRINE OF PAGAN GNOSTICISM.

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

In the 2nd century A.D., mystic Gnostics influenced by Greek Platonism, Neoplatonism, esoteric Greek philosophy and the Occult, crept into the early Christian Church. Some of the early Church fathers wrote many warnings about them (like Irenaeus). The Gnostics reject Christ's literal death on the cross, and instead believe that His disciples removed Him before He died, and that He married and had children, and lived to old age. That is no better way for Satan to get the deceived to deny Christ's Salvation by Faith on His death and resurrection. If Jesus Christ did not 'literally' die on the cross, then it would mean there is no Salvation Plan.

1. One of the major Bible prophecies given the Church about the very end of this world is that of a one-world beast kingdom setup over all the earth that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns (Revelation 13:1). And Revelation 13:2 links it to the beast descriptions in Daniel 7. Included with that established one-world beast kingdom over ALL nations and peoples at the end, is the "another beast" mentioned later in that Revelation 13 Chapter which represents the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah that Lord Jesus warned His Church about for the end per Matthew 24:23-26. Apostle Paul also warned about the coming of that false one at the end, prior to Christ's future return, per 2 Thessalonians 2.

2. But what these false apostles that belong to that "another Jesus" instead preach today, is that Christ's Kingdom was ALREADY ESTABLISHED on earth at His 1st coming! That even though Lord Jesus was emphatic in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning NOT of this present time. Instead, God's Word in many Scriptures reveal Christ's LITERAL Kingdom only will come at His FUTURE 2nd coming, which still has NOT happened yet today!

What did Lord Jesus establish at His 1st coming and death and resurrection? He established His SPIRITUAL KINGDOM only, through His Church on earth. Does that means Christian organizations by men, Church buildings and properties, represent His Kingdom today on earth?? NO! Christ's Church today is of The SPIRIT. No man can destroy, no angel can destroy, Satan cannot touch it! It is because it is of The SPIRIT through His body of many members. This is what Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians 2, the Church's foundation being of the prophets and Apostles, with Christ Jesus as it Cornerstone. Thus the TRUE CHURCH of The SPIRIT is what Lord Jesus established on earth at His 1st coming. That is the Kingdom that has already come.

However, God's Word speaks of a FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM with Lord Jesus Christ having LITERALLY RETURNED to earth, to REIGN over ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES with a "rod of iron". And His elect are to literally reign in that future Kingdom with Him. That has NOT... happened yet today! But those deceived by Gnosticism belief all that has already been established today.

What this means is, those deceived with following Gnosticism's false belief that Christ's Kingdom is already established today on earth, they are actually WORKING IN SUPPORT OF THE DEVIL'S COMING ONE-WORLD BEAST KINGDOM to be setup at the very end of this present world. They are NOT prepared for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end, nor against deception to BOWING IN WORSHIP to the first supernatural Messiah that shows up in Jerusalem, which will NOT BE OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. They are being directed and lied to by false apostles, Satan's servants who disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11).

Your ignorant ramblings mean nothing. Your interpretation of John 18:36 is a complete joke. When Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world He was not saying it was not of this present time. You are twisting the meaning of that verse to fit your false Premil doctrine.

You obviously don't know the context of what it means to not be of this world. Jesus said that He and His followers were not of this world even while in the world. So, He clearly wasn't saying He and His followers were not of this present time by saying they were not of this world.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

This is what Jesus said not long before His death and He knew He would be leaving the world and going to heaven soon after that. He was still in the world when He said that, but He spake as if He was not because He knew He would soon no longer be in the world. But, He said His disciples "are in the world" and at the same time said they "are not of the world" just as He was not of the world.

You are equating Christ's kingdom not being of the world as not being in the world at the present time, but that's not what not being of the world means. Clearly, Jesus Himself and His followers were in the world at the same time that He said they were not of the world. Similarly, His kingdom is in the world, but is not of the world. To not be of the world means to not be worldly and not follow this evil world's ways. Instead of Christ's kingdom being of the world like this world's evil kingdoms, it is of heaven and is righteous instead.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Notice here how Paul contrasts following "after the tradition of men" and "the rudiments of the world" rather than following "after Christ". So, being of the world means to oppose Christ and follow after "philosophy and vain deceit" and "the tradition of men" instead. It is in that sense that Christ's followers are not of the world while in the world and that we are in His kingdom that is not of the world while it is in the world.

If you think you are not in Christ's kingdom now then that would mean you also have not been delivered from the power of darkness.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lord Jesus Christ warned us about the fallacy of believing that the Kingdom had come at His 1st coming in the PHYSICAL SENSE.

Luke 17:20-23
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

22 And He said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, 'See here; or, see there': go not after them, nor follow them.
KJV

Then Lord Jesus said the following...

Luke 17:24
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.
KJV

Putting all the above Scripture together, Lord Jesus is showing that His Kingdom then is not by observation, meaning not an outward manifesting, but is instead WITHIN YOU. By that idea He referred to The SPIRIT and thus The Holy Spirit given the believer on Him. THAT... is the Kingdom which He established at His 1st coming! And it is manifested today on earth through His Church, but not by buildings and cathedrals, but by The Holy Spirit within us.

THEN... in the next verses, Lord Jesus WARNS against those who will say, "Lo here! or there!" or "See here; or, see there", like a visual observation that His Kingdom had come. He then commands us who remain Faithful to NOT go after them, nor follow them.

And finally, in the Luke 17:24 verse, Jesus contrasts how His future coming will be, vs. the coming of the false-Messiah that comes first. The deceived by false-Messiah are those who will say that, "See herel or, see there", when the false-Messiah arrives with their announcing him. But when Jesus comes EVERYONE will know and SEE His coming, just as many can see lightning flash across the sky! No one will have to come up to us and say, "Lo, Christ is here, or there".

Such are those like TribulationSigns, and WPM apparently, that wrongly push a Kingdom Now theory from Satan's host, and thus wrongly turning God's written Word upside down against the FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM that Christ will manifest here on earth at His 2nd coming!

Why do you try to minimize the significance of His kingdom that you acknowledge that "He established at His 1st coming"?

Scripture teaches that He will deliver the kingdom that He reigns over now to the Father when He comes again.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are certain ones come here that SPIRITUALIZE The Bible prophecies with pushing FALSEHOODS about endtime prophecy, and Jesus' future return to BEGIN His establishing of HIS FUTURE LITERAL KINGDOM here on earth.

ANY... idea that TODAY, that all endtime prophecy had already been fulfilled back at Jesus' 1st coming, or at 70 A.D., etc., and that Christ's Kingdom has ALREADY COME HERE ON EARTH, is a DOCTRINE OF PAGAN GNOSTICISM.

You tell lies about what others believe because you can't support your own beliefs with scripture. Amillennialism is absolutely NOT a doctrine of pagan Gnosticism and does not SPIRITUALIZE any Bible prophecies that are meant to be taken in a literal, physical sense.

Amillennialism is founded upon clear, straightforward scriptures that are used to help interpret more difficult scriptures found in books that contain a lot of symbolism like Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and Revelation.

Revelation 20 talks about the reign of Christ. Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ began to reign after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 20:6 says that those who reign with Christ are "priests of God and of Christ". Scripture teaches that Christ's followers are priests right now.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Scripture teaches that all believers will have their bodies changed to be immortal while inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Matthew 25:31-46). And it teaches that all unbelievers will be destroyed when He returns which would not allow for any mortals to populate the earth at that point, as the following scriptures indicate.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”


Scripture also teaches that the saved and lost will be resurrected at generally the same time or hour and then judged.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Scripture teaches that all people will be judged at the same time and not that there will be multiple judgments as Premills believe.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 13:40 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All of these clear, straightforward scriptures I have referenced support Amillennialism. You try to accuse Amills of over-spiritualizing scripture, but, as I've shown, the foundation of Amillennialism is clear, straightforward scriptures which are used to help interpret more difficult passages. Premillennialism has no such clear, straightforward scriptures to support it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics. post #582
I've answered these points before in the thread,

"The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics."​

• Thread starterWPM
• Start dateAug 4, 2022

The Chiliasts presented their Premil views with a lack of detail, consistency, and organization perhaps because they had not yet faced future challenges by Amils. They did share with Amils, however, a lack of faith in large-scale Jewish reformation and recovery, which modern Premils see as consistent with what is to take place in a literal Millennium.

This weakness in rejecting hope in a future salvation of national Israel caused the Chiliast position to recede, as the Amil position, affirming the "replacement" of the Jews and Israel with Christians and the Church, found opportunity to establish itself through most of NT history.

Here you go again with your replacement theology nonsense. Amils do NOT have the church replacing ANYONE. Stop misrepresenting Amil. The church consists of Gentile believers joined together with Jewish believers as one body by the blood of Christ (read Ephesians 2:11-22). Paul illustrated this with the olive tree analogy in Romans 11. Gentile believers, represented by branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in with Jewish believers who were called natural branches as part of the natural olive tree. Natural branches (Unbelieving Jews) were cut off from the olive tree because of unbelief, but that doesn't mean the wild olive tree branches (Gentile believers) replaced them. The wild olive tree branches would have been grafted in even if none of the natural branches were cut off.

But the Amils, as well as the Chiliasts, could not have anticipated that the Jews would recollect in a modern state of Israel, suggesting there really may be hope for a Millennial recovery for national Israel. Premils, therefore, carry the early Premil torch for the Chiliasts, but reject their denial of a Jewish national salvation.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.21 (St. Irenaeus)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Irenaeus presents Satan as bound *legally* at the Cross (Book 5, Ch. 21, 3.):
...yet his power consists in transgression and apostasy, and with these he bound man [to himself]; so again, on the other hand, it was necessary that through man himself he should, when conquered, be bound with the same chains with which he had bound man, in order that man, being set free, might return to his Lord, leaving to him (Satan) those bonds by which he himself had been fettered, that is, sin. For when Satan is bound, man is set free; since none can enter a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless he first bind the strong man himself.

And yet here, Irenaeus contrasts the legal binding of Satan at the Cross with the eschatological binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming to begin the literal Millennium...

Against Heresies Book 3, Ch. 23
7. For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy's head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head — which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon; — indicating that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and that He should bind the dragon, that old serpent Revelation 20:2 and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered Luke 10:19 so that all his might should be trodden down.

You addressed one of the 25 questions (#2), but act as if you addressed them all. I'm not saying I expect anyone to address all of them, but how about addressing at least 2 or 3 more of the questions instead of just one?

How would you answer these questions:

Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?

Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?

Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?

Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Let's put your wild claims to the test and see who the real spiritualizers are and who the real literalists are. I put it to you it is the Premils who are the real spiritualizers and Amils who the real literalists!

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

1. Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do do you believe that Jesus is literally coming "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
5. Do do you believe that the wicked shall literally "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)?
6. What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
7. Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
9. Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
10. Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
11. Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

Premils have nothing from scripture to refute Amillennialism, so they have to resort to falsely misrepresenting Amillennialism instead. As you show here and as I showed in post #8, Amil is based on literal, straightforward scriptures. Premils act as if everything should be interpreted literally unless it explicitly says otherwise, but their literal interpretations of scriptures found in the most highly symbolic books in the Bible cause contradictions with the literal, clear scriptures you presented here along with many more.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And yet here, Irenaeus contrasts the legal binding of Satan at the Cross with the eschatological binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming to begin the literal Millennium...

Against Heresies Book 3, Ch. 23
7. For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy's head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head — which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon; — indicating that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and that He should bind the dragon, that old serpent Revelation 20:2 and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered Luke 10:19 so that all his might should be trodden down.

Where do you see any mention of Christ's second coming here? Notice that he references Luke 10:19 in support of what he said there. Do you try to claim that Luke 10:19 applies to the second coming of Christ? It clearly does not.

The context of Luke 10:19 is in relation to the first coming of Christ, not the second.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

So, Jesus sent 70 of His followers to go, two by two, "into every city and place, whither he himself would come" to preach to them "as lambs among wolves".

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

After His 70 followers returned, they reported to Him that "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name". And He then "beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven". And then Jesus told His 70 followers that He had sent out: "I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.". This relates to that time long ago, not to when He comes in the future. Satan was bound back then which is why Christ's followers had power "over all the power of the enemy", which included Satan. So, you are misrepresenting what Irenaeus said there and what he believed.

 

[Davy]

The following are specific seminary doctrines of men to watch out for among today's Churches:

1. Preterism -- from the word 'preter', which means 'what is past'.

a. Partial Preterism:
I was raised in a Protestant Preterist Church. I didn't know what man's Preterism was back then though. They left me with a whole... lot of wonder about what was written in God's Word, simply because they didn't teach much Bible prophecy. They still believed that Christ's coming is future, and after the tribulation. But they didn't even discuss what that tribulation was really about per Scripture either. They believed that most of Christ's Book of Revelation was already past history, and basically that about 90% of all Bible prophecy was already fulfilled at the cross.

In order to pull that false seminary doctrine of Preterism off, one must SPIRITUALIZE a whole lot of God's written Word.

b. Full Preterism:
Full Preterism really gets wildly away from God's written Word. It pushes the false idea that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in the days of His Apostles, and that it was only a SPIRITUAL COMING, not physical. Like Partial Preterists, they claim Christ's Kingdom has already come at the cross.

All Preterists, whether they admit it or not, wrongly believe that since Christ's Kingdom is already here, they believe it is up to the Church to convert the whole earth before Jesus returns. Thus they deny most of the endtime Bible prophecies and instead attempt to SPIRITUALIZE it away, especially the Biblical fact that Satan will setup a one-world beast kingdom at the very end of this world, which of course will make Preterists look really stupid when that happens.

2. Historicism -- another seminary doctrine of men not written in God's Word. Historicists believe the endtime prophecies in the Books of Daniel and Revelation have already been fulfilled throughout history. The 15-16th century Protestant Reformers in Europe widely held to Historicism. And if you are not aware of what the 15th century Reformers believed in their day, it is this. The Reformation was about a 'protest' against the Catholic Church because of the traditions of men it had created, and had fallen away. Thus the Catholic's called those who protested as Protestants. And it eventually turned into a war against the Protestants. The Reformers thus believed Bible prophecy about the end was being fulfilled in their day. They believed the pope at that time was the prophesied Antichrist that was to come.

The problem with Historicism is that it looks very much like Partial Preterism. It's easy to confuse the two doctrines. They both believe Christ's 2nd coming is future. But they both also believe a lot of Bible prophecy has already been fulfilled when it has not yet been. Thus they also use SPIRITUALIZATIONS to push their man-made doctrines away from the written Bible.

3. Dispensationalism -- a movement begun by the Plymouth Brethren and John Nelso Darby in 1800's Great Britain, and associated with the first preachings of a false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.

Prior to the preaching of that pre-trib rapture theory in Britain, for 1,800 years prior the Christian Church had held to a Post-tribulational return of Lord Jesus, which Jesus' future coming after the tribulation is actually what is written in God's Word (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

Included in the false teachings of the Pre-trib Rapture theory is the idea that Christ's future coming is 'imminent', that it can happen at any moment, regardless of the Bible prophecies of events that Jesus told us must happen prior to His coming. This is why the doctrine is also nicknamed the "Any Moment" doctrine.

The pre-tribe rapture doctrine contains many falsehoods twisting the actual written Bible Scripture. Also it began claiming that Scripture specifically given by Christ to His Church was meant only for Jews, or just His Apostles of the time. By that method they began to ISOLATE even important Gospel Messages as being for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church. This also extended to Christ's Book of Revelation, where by the Revelation 4 Chapter, they believe the Church is gone, already raptured to Heaven, and the rest of the Book of Revelation is about the Jews that are 'left-behind' on earth to go through the "great tribulation."

The real fact of the written Bible Scripture is that Christ's Church is not raptured to Heaven, but raptured to Jerusalem WITH Jesus' future return to the Mount of Olives, per Zechariah 14. Apostle Paul described these events in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, but the Pre-trib Rapture school does not follow it.

4. Hyper-Dispensationalism, or Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, or Grace Movement -- a further dividing of the doctrines of Dispensationalism and a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

They also have different positions on the Ministry of the early Church, and involving Apostle Paul and his Epistles. The real radicals in the movement believe that Paul's Epistles ONLY are meant for the Christian Church, while the rest of The Bible is about and for the Jews. Thus the false ISOLATION of much important Bible Scripture which such butchering appears to have started with the Dispensationalists and Pre-trib Rapture school is shown having been further developed with more falsehoods by this group.

There of course are other doctrines of men loosely based on The Bible, but I won't go into them. The above are in the mainstream Church denominations today and should be watched out for.

At some point I have been falsely accused of following one or more of the above seminary doctrines of men. It's because men's doctrines, in order to work, operate even like what Satan did in Luke 4:11 with tempting Lord Jesus by ADDING to God's written Word. Men's fragments are added... to God's written Word, just like how the miracles of the loaves and fishes returned many baskets of fragments after the full unbroken loaves (God's Word full strength) went out. If... you 'stay'... in God's Word as written, you will be accused of all sorts of things, but no problem. That's only the devil influencing them against you because you are a danger to the devil when you 'stay' in God's Word as written, because God's Word full strength just isn't that popular.

 

[WPM]

The following are specific seminary doctrines of men to watch out for among today's Churches:

1. Preterism -- from the word 'preter', which means 'what is past'.

a. Partial Preterism:
I was raised in a Protestant Preterist Church. I didn't know what man's Preterism was back then though. They left me with a whole... lot of wonder about what was written in God's Word, simply because they didn't teach much Bible prophecy. They still believed that Christ's coming is future, and after the tribulation. But they didn't even discuss what that tribulation was really about per Scripture either. They believed that most of Christ's Book of Revelation was already past history, and basically that about 90% of all Bible prophecy was already fulfilled at the cross.

In order to pull that false seminary doctrine of Preterism off, one must SPIRITUALIZE a whole lot of God's written Word.

b. Full Preterism:
Full Preterism really gets wildly away from God's written Word. It pushes the false idea that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in the days of His Apostles, and that it was only a SPIRITUAL COMING, not physical. Like Partial Preterists, they claim Christ's Kingdom has already come at the cross.

All Preterists, whether they admit it or not, wrongly believe that since Christ's Kingdom is already here, they believe it is up to the Church to convert the whole earth before Jesus returns. Thus they deny most of the endtime Bible prophecies and instead attempt to SPIRITUALIZE it away, especially the Biblical fact that Satan will setup a one-world beast kingdom at the very end of this world, which of course will make Preterists look really stupid when that happens.

2. Historicism -- another seminary doctrine of men not written in God's Word. Historicists believe the endtime prophecies in the Books of Daniel and Revelation have already been fulfilled throughout history. The 15-16th century Protestant Reformers in Europe widely held to Historicism. And if you are not aware of what the 15th century Reformers believed in their day, it is this. The Reformation was about a 'protest' against the Catholic Church because of the traditions of men it had created, and had fallen away. Thus the Catholic's called those who protested as Protestants. And it eventually turned into a war against the Protestants. The Reformers thus believed Bible prophecy about the end was being fulfilled in their day. They believed the pope at that time was the prophesied Antichrist that was to come.

The problem with Historicism is that it looks very much like Partial Preterism. It's easy to confuse the two doctrines. They both believe Christ's 2nd coming is future. But they both also believe a lot of Bible prophecy has already been fulfilled when it has not yet been. Thus they also use SPIRITUALIZATIONS to push their man-made doctrines away from the written Bible.

3. Dispensationalism -- a movement begun by the Plymouth Brethren and John Nelso Darby in 1800's Great Britain, and associated with the first preachings of a false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.

Prior to the preaching of that pre-trib rapture theory in Britain, for 1,800 years prior the Christian Church had held to a Post-tribulational return of Lord Jesus, which Jesus' future coming after the tribulation is actually what is written in God's Word (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

Included in the false teachings of the Pre-trib Rapture theory is the idea that Christ's future coming is 'imminent', that it can happen at any moment, regardless of the Bible prophecies of events that Jesus told us must happen prior to His coming. This is why the doctrine is also nicknamed the "Any Moment" doctrine.

The pre-tribe rapture doctrine contains many falsehoods twisting the actual written Bible Scripture. Also it began claiming that Scripture specifically given by Christ to His Church was meant only for Jews, or just His Apostles of the time. By that method they began to ISOLATE even important Gospel Messages as being for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church. This also extended to Christ's Book of Revelation, where by the Revelation 4 Chapter, they believe the Church is gone, already raptured to Heaven, and the rest of the Book of Revelation is about the Jews that are 'left-behind' on earth to go through the "great tribulation."

The real fact of the written Bible Scripture is that Christ's Church is not raptured to Heaven, but raptured to Jerusalem WITH Jesus' future return to the Mount of Olives, per Zechariah 14. Apostle Paul described these events in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, but the Pre-trib Rapture school does not follow it.

4. Hyper-Dispensationalism, or Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, or Grace Movement -- a further dividing of the doctrines of Dispensationalism and a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

They also have different positions on the Ministry of the early Church, and involving Apostle Paul and his Epistles. The real radicals in the movement believe that Paul's Epistles ONLY are meant for the Christian Church, while the rest of The Bible is about and for the Jews. Thus the false ISOLATION of much important Bible Scripture which such butchering appears to have started with the Dispensationalists and Pre-trib Rapture school is shown having been further developed with more falsehoods by this group.

There of course are other doctrines of men loosely based on The Bible, but I won't go into them. The above are in the mainstream Church denominations today and should be watched out for.

At some point I have been falsely accused of following one or more of the above seminary doctrines of men. It's because men's doctrines, in order to work, operate even like what Satan did in Luke 4:11 with tempting Lord Jesus by ADDING to God's written Word. Men's fragments are added... to God's written Word, just like how the miracles of the loaves and fishes returned many baskets of fragments after the full unbroken loaves (God's Word full strength) went out. If... you 'stay'... in God's Word as written, you will be accused of all sorts of things, but no problem. That's only the devil influencing them against you because you are a danger to the devil when you 'stay' in God's Word as written, because God's Word full strength just isn't that popular.

MORE AVOIDANCE! You have to. Your argument is in tatters.

 

[ScottA]

BEWARE OF THOSE WHO COME HERE AND SPEAK AGAINST GOD WHOM IS THE GREAT SPIRITUALIZER.

God is spirit, and His children are spirit--because He spiritualizes them.

​

“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” Luke 11:52​

 

[Davy]

BEWARE OF THOSE WHO COME HERE AND SPEAK AGAINST GOD WHOM IS THE GREAT SPIRITUALIZER.

God is spirit, and His children are spirit--because He spiritualizes them.

​

“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” Luke 11:52​

This guy certainly is a SPIRITUALIST. And brethren in Christ, a 'spiritualist' is one who dabbles in the Occult. It's about the old 'spiritualism' movement of occult seances and such that were popular around the turn of the 19th century.

 

[ScottA]

This guy certainly is a SPIRITUALIST. And brethren in Christ, a 'spiritualist' is one who dabbles in the Occult. It's about the old 'spiritualism' movement of occult seances and such that were popular around the turn of the 19th century.

I accredit God for what is God's--you attribute what is spiritual to the occult.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

MORE AVOIDANCE! You have to. Your argument is in tatters.

He doesn't even attempt to address our arguments. He knows he can't. So, what does he do? He invents the idea that all this Gnostic spiritualizing nonsense is related to Amillennialism, which is 100% false. We both have shown him how Amil is based on clear, straightforward scriptures and he just completely ignores that. He has obviously given up on trying to refute Amil with scripture, since he knows it can't be done, so he resorts to this kind of nonsense instead.

 

[Davy]

HEY... we've got a NEW spiritualizer of Bible Scripture joined with Spiritual Israelite! It's jeffweeder!

All those cats used to be on my IGNORE LIST, but I figured I'd given them another chance at hearing. Doesn't appear their confusion has gotten any better.

 

[WPM]

HEY... we've got a NEW spiritualizer of Bible Scripture joined with Spiritual Israelite! It's jeffweeder!

All those cats used to be on my IGNORE LIST, but I figured I'd given them another chance at hearing. Doesn't appear their confusion has gotten any better.

MORE AVOIDANCE! You have to. Your argument is in tatters.

Let's put your wild claims to the test and see who the real spiritualizers are and who the real literalists are. I put it to you it is the Premils who are the real spiritualizers and Amils who the real literalists!

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

1. Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do do you believe that Jesus is literally coming "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
5. Do do you believe that the wicked shall literally "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)?
6. What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
7. Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
9. Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
10. Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
11. Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:

I wish that my brethren that are actually serious about their Salvation and Faith on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would study a little history about the secret societies of initiation and what it is that they teach. You will discover many of the 2nd century doctrines of Gnosticism with what they teach.

The movie The Da Vinci Code with Tom Hanks, is actually based on a theme by Gnosticism. At the end of the movie, it proposed that Christ didn't die on the cross, but was removed before He died, and married and had children. And the question was raised about where His children of the day might be, and they wondered if the offspring 'genetically' inherited Christ's power of miracles. Those ideas in that movie right there are from modern-day Gnosticism, showing it still has followers in the world today that push it, and high up in political power followers too, since they got Hollywood to make those kind of movies based on Dan Brown's Gnosticism books suggesting Christ married and His seed is walking around on earth today.

Here is a website link to the Rosicrucian Order (Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis, or AMORC), headquartered out of San Jose, CA.:

The Rosicrucian Order, AMORC

The Rosicrucians are a community of mystics who study and practice the metaphysical laws governing the universe. Founded in 1915 by H. Spencer Lewis, the Rosicrucian Order, AMORC is the largest international organization dedicated to perpetuating the ancient Rosicrucian Tradition with hundreds...

www.rosicrucian.org

Even deeper, they have in their free online library a work called The Secret Doctrines of Jesus.

The Secret Doctrines of Jesus by H. Spencer Lewis

Following years of extensive research and journeys to the Holy Land and Egypt, H. Spencer Lewis reveals in this book The Secret Doctrines of Jesus, the hidden doctrines of Jesus and what they mean.

www.rosicrucian.org

Here's an example of their 'secret teaching' rhetoric:

​

Here are the facts: That Jesus had many private and secret meetings​

or sessions with his disciples and trusted companions is hinted at in​

many parts of the New Testament. There is unmistakable evidence of​

this fact.​

​

That Jesus possessed some rare, secret, divine, or spiritual, as well as​

semi-scientific knowledge that enabled him to perform miracles and to​

convey this secret knowledge and power to others is also unmistakable​

if we give careful consideration or acceptance to many of the passages​

in the New Testament.​

​

That the early Christian workers constituting the very foundation​

of the Christian religion were capable of performing miracles, or​

applying divine or cosmic principles in a new and different manner​

from that which had ever been applied before, is impressed upon our​

consciousness as we read and analyze the Synoptic Gospels and other​

parts of the New Testament.​

​

That the early Christian church was devoted to two phases of​

essential activity—preaching, teaching, postulating, and performing,​

healing, demonstrating—is beyond question.​

​

That the Christian church of today no longer practices or​

demonstrates those principles of healing or calling upon divine​

and natural law for unusual manifestations, but concentrates almost​

exclusively upon preaching and postulating, indicates that the Christian​

church of today and of the past centuries has either abandoned fully​

half of its great work, or that some secret knowledge possessed by the​

early Christians has not passed down through the ages from priest to​

priest, clergy to clergy, sect to sect.​

(from The Secret Doctrines of Jesus by H. Spencer Lewis, one of the first Rosicrucian Imperators in America in the 1900s?)​

(Bold emphasis is mine)​

​

Those above statements above by Lewis are in preparation for their false declaration that THEY have those SECRETS that Jesus taught in private to His disciples. It's to draw you in ever so slowly and carefully.

How then is that a type of SPIRITUALIZING The Bible? It's because that is using OTHER DOCTRINES to SUPPLANT what the Scriptures in reality actually teaches. And it's EASY to note, because do you see Lewis in the above quote anything about the POWER SOURCE for the miracles Jesus and His Apostles did, like GOD or The Holy Spirit? NO, that kind of reference to God or The Holy Spirit, which IS in The Scriptures, is OMITTED by Lewis. It's because he attributes those miracles to KNOWELDGE OF DIVINE AND NATURAL LAW; in other word SCIENCE, both PARANORMAL and NATURAL. The Rosicrucian Order at their San Jose facility even have a PARANORMAL EXPERIMENT LAB on their campus.

Their practices involve delving into the OCCULT, the SPIRIT WORLD, and they ASSOCIATE that practice with THE SECRET TEACHING OF JESUS? Yes! It's very... dangerous to one's soul!

​

Matt 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
KJV

So when you hear someone try to preach The Bible in SPIRITUALIZED RIDDLES, trying to act as if THEY... have some SECRET KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS' TEACHING, then WATCH OUT!