BEWARE OF THE SPIRITUALIZERS HERE

[jaybird]

Pagan Gnosticism governed by Satan's host that has crept into certain so-called Christian denominations and/or Christian Cults, is still... the main enemies here on earth against Christ's Church. What are they actually about?

Gnostics were not the ones burning people alive, going on torture inquisitions, and burning towns to the ground full of women and children.

 

[PS95]

The verse is talking about proclaiming the Lords death until you die.When you die the Lord comes and takes you home.

Except it says TIL HE COMES. ----------------------------Not Til YOU DIE-

 

[IndianaRob]

Except it says TIL HE COMES. ----------------------------Not Til YOU DIE-

I get it, you don’t believe Jesus comes for you at your death I get it. That’s why I’m not saying anymore. You win, I concede.

 

[PS95]

I get it, you don’t believe Jesus comes for you at your death I get it. That’s why I’m not saying anymore. You win, I concede.

Sorry but you get nothing. Please don't put your words in my mouth.
That verse has zero to do with our deaths. It has to do with Jesus' death. We proclaim HIS DEATH until He comes- when we partake of communion where He taught us to remember Him after His death-- by doing so. This isn't hard.

If that's what you do to scriptures it's worrisome. We can't just add our own ideas to it. We need to read it as it is.

 

[Exegesis]

The verse is talking about proclaiming the Lords death until you die.When you die the Lord comes and takes you home.

Thanks for this @IndianaRob . I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this being taught in Scripture.

 

[IndianaRob]

Thanks for this @IndianaRob . I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this being taught in Scripture.

I’m glad you can see it too. This is another verse that shows that Jesus comes for us at our death. “I will come again and RECEIVE YOU UNTO ME, that where I am (Jesus in heaven), there ye may be also (taken to heaven)”.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It’s shown in the story of Stephen too. For some reason any mention of Jesus coming is always assumed to be talking about the second coming.

 

[IndianaRob]

Sorry but you get nothing. Please don't put your words in my mouth.
That verse has zero to do with our deaths. It has to do with Jesus' death. We proclaim HIS DEATH until He comes- when we partake of communion where He taught us to remember Him after His death-- by doing so. This isn't hard.

If that's what you do to scriptures it's worrisome. We can't just add our own ideas to it. We need to read it as it is.

You can think it means whatever you want it to mean, I’m not responsible for what you believe.

 

[PS95]

You can think it means whatever you want it to mean, I’m not responsible for what you believe.

I do feel a little responsible for what you believe. You're teaching this to people and it's false and that makes you a false teacher. I don't want you to be that.

 

[IndianaRob]

I do feel a little responsible for what you believe. You're teaching this to people and it's false and that makes you a false teacher. I don't want you to be that.

The burden of proof is on you. Prove that Jesus doesn’t come for the believer when it’s time to leave this world and go to heaven.

Why would Jesus come for Stephen and not come for you?

 

[PS95]

The burden of proof is on you. Prove that Jesus doesn’t come for the believer when it’s time to leave this world and go to heaven.

Why would Jesus come for Stephen and not come for you?

Stephen saw Jesus in heaven. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father- likewise, Stephen commended his spirit to the Son.
Where does it say Jesus went anywhere? It doesn't say that. Again, you read things into it that are not there.
Acts 7-
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.


The problem simple- you are reading things into all of the texts. It says what it says. - don't add to the words. It means what it says.
Paul was speaking about the Last Supper where we remember what Jesus' has done for us- HIS DEATH.
We are to continue partaking until HE COMES.
It says NOTHING about OUR DEATHS, Nothing, You are reading that into it. It simply isn't there.

What's odd is that I have offered you other passages such as Acts, and you gave me the same verses your gave stumpmaster. You don't reply to the passages given to you. So here- again- maybe respond to this? If He had already returned-- Why would the angels lie?

Act 1:6-11 So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (7) Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. (8) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (9) After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. (10) They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. (11) “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

 

[IndianaRob]

Stephen saw Jesus in heaven. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father- likewise, Stephen commended his spirit to the Son.
Where does it say Jesus went anywhere? It doesn't say that. Again, you read things into it that are not there.
Acts 7-
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.


The problem simple- you are reading things into all of the texts. It says what it says. - don't add to the words. It means what it says.
Paul was speaking about the Last Supper where we remember what Jesus' has done for us- HIS DEATH.
We are to continue partaking until HE COMES.
It says NOTHING about OUR DEATHS, Nothing, You are reading that into it. It simply isn't there.

What's odd is that I have offered you other passages such as Acts, and you gave me the same verses your gave stumpmaster. You don't reply to the passages given to you. So here- again- maybe respond to this? If He had already returned-- Why would the angels lie?

Act 1:6-11 So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (7) Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. (8) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (9) After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. (10) They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. (11) “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The passage in Acts is same the EXACT same thing as Jesus is saying here:

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is telling the disciples , that he is going to prepare a place for them him and that He will RECEIVE THEM (take them) to where HE IS (heaven).

The disciples have been IN HEAVEN for two thousand years.

Please tell me how the 12 disciples are going to be HERE (on this earth) when Jesus “comes again” two thousand years down the road?

Have they not already been received in heaven?

Are they going to come back to earth and the be received in heaven again?

 

[IndianaRob]

@PS95

Chatgpt Question - Based on the rules of grammar only (not theological commentary) what is this passage saying?

Chatgpt Response:

If we stay strictly with English grammar and plain referents:

• Jesus is speaking directly to “you” (the disciples in front of Him).
• He sets up a sequence: I go → I prepare → I come → I receive you.
• Grammatically, “you” can’t suddenly jump 2000 years into the future to a different audience — it’s still the disciples He’s addressing.
• That means the coming and receiving applies to them personally.

So, from grammar alone, the only non-contradictory reading is that Jesus is talking about coming for each disciple when they die.

 

[Davy]

Gnostics were not the ones burning people alive, going on torture inquisitions, and burning towns to the ground full of women and children.

Oh come on, the Church during the Inquisition didn't burn towns and such. They burned WITCHES, AND HERETICS that practiced the OCCULT BLACK ARTS, Satan's workers, which the Church not allowing those to live was a commandment from God per the Old Testament law.

So... it appears that you SIDE with the PAGAN GNOSTICS, and here you are on CHRISTIAN FORUM!

 

[jaybird]

Oh come on, the Church during the Inquisition didn't burn towns and such. They burned WITCHES, AND HERETICS that practiced the OCCULT BLACK ARTS, Satan's workers, which the Church not allowing those to live was a commandment from God per the Old Testament law.

So... it appears that you SIDE with the PAGAN GNOSTICS, and here you are on CHRISTIAN FORUM!

Sack of Constantinople and Siege of Montségur are just two of many many many towns destroyed by the church, both Christian towns, both full of women and children.

HERETICS

exactly, they burned heretics, heresy meaning – to chose. Anyone that chose of their own free will, such as those that "chose" to follow the spirit, like Jesus did, were killed

what differene does it make what they practiced or believed, they were no threat to anyone, just minding their own business, and they are killed for it. You dont agree with your neighbors religion you think you have the right to kick down their door and murder the entire family, thats sick and twisted.

No, again your confused, or a bad case of wishful thinking since you seem to like the idea of killing people so much. Killing witches in the Hebrew bible was directed at witches living within the Jewish community, Jews were never commanded to go outside their walls and into other nations and just start killing people because they were not Jewish.
also i do not believe you understand how witches were defined in the middle ages, here are a few examples:

elderly people with ailments = witch
opinionated women = witch
women that disobeyed husband = witch
women that never married = witch
people that used herbs for healing = witch
i also thought it interesting that wealthy people and those of the noble class were somehow immune from becoming witches.

I am proud to side with the ones that dont murder, oppress, and torture.

 

[WPM]

Sorry but you get nothing. Please don't put your words in my mouth.
That verse has zero to do with our deaths. It has to do with Jesus' death. We proclaim HIS DEATH until He comes- when we partake of communion where He taught us to remember Him after His death-- by doing so. This isn't hard.

If that's what you do to scriptures it's worrisome. We can't just add our own ideas to it. We need to read it as it is.

I agree. It is called heresy!

 

[WPM]

@PS95

Chatgpt Question - Based on the rules of grammar only (not theological commentary) what is this passage saying?

Chatgpt Response:

If we stay strictly with English grammar and plain referents:

• Jesus is speaking directly to “you” (the disciples in front of Him).
• He sets up a sequence: I go → I prepare → I come → I receive you.
• Grammatically, “you” can’t suddenly jump 2000 years into the future to a different audience — it’s still the disciples He’s addressing.
• That means the coming and receiving applies to them personally.

So, from grammar alone, the only non-contradictory reading is that Jesus is talking about coming for each disciple when they die.

Revelation 3:12: “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage shows that the heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. The New Jerusalem comes down to the new regenerated earth when Jesus comes. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Matt Chandler states: “we will be on a literal physical remade earth. Heaven has come down, the two have joined … heaven and earth are … renewed, and we’re in it.”

Revelation 21:1-4 declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [Gr. skēnē] of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium, it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Revelation 21:9-10: “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

The New Jerusalem is seen descending out of heaven, coming to the new earth at the second coming. This is the climactic moment of history. This is when we move from time to eternity.

 

[IndianaRob]

Revelation 3:12: “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage shows that the heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. The New Jerusalem comes down to the new regenerated earth when Jesus comes. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Matt Chandler states: “we will be on a literal physical remade earth. Heaven has come down, the two have joined … heaven and earth are … renewed, and we’re in it.”

Revelation 21:1-4 declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [Gr. skēnē] of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium, it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Revelation 21:9-10: “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

The New Jerusalem is seen descending out of heaven, coming to the new earth at the second coming. This is the climactic moment of history. This is when we move from time to eternity.

How does this support your argument that the grammar in John 14:3 IS NOT pointing to Christ returning to the individual?

If you want to discuss heavenly Jerusalem, that’s fine but heavenly Jerusalem has nothing to do with John 14:3 in a sane persons mind.

Which subject would you like to discuss?

 

[WPM]

How does this support your argument that the grammar in John 14:3 IS NOT pointing to Christ returning to the individual?

If you want to discuss heavenly Jerusalem, that’s fine but heavenly Jerusalem has nothing to do with John 14:3 in a sane persons mind.

Which subject would you like to discuss?

Hello! This is called a generality. This is common throughout Scripture. Those that have eyes to see can plainly see it.

The phrase "him that overcometh" signals a Christian. It is the generic believer. Essentially: he who is a Christian will be blessed at the second coming. What is so hard to get your head round - apart from what you have been falsely taught? It is like the following:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

This is not talking about an individual. It is talking about Christians in general.

 

[IndianaRob]

Hello! This is called a generality. This is common throughout Scripture. Those that have eyes to see can plainly see it.

The phrase "him that overcometh" signals a Christian. It is the generic believer. Essentially: he who is a Christian will be blessed at the second coming. What is so hard to get your head round - apart from what you have been falsely taught? It is like the following:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

This is not talking about an individual. It is talking about Christians in general.

What I hear you saying is “that doesn’t line up white what I beleive so it CAN NOT mean what it says”.

I’m not surprised because your whole theology is built on that method. The gospel according to WPM.

 

[WPM]

What I hear you saying is “that doesn’t line up white what I beleive so it CAN NOT mean what it says”.

I’m not surprised because your whole theology is built on that method. The gospel according to WPM.

You hear nothing I'm saying. You need eyes to see and ears to hear to get that. You are full of heresy and nonsense. Nothing you say carries any credibility. You should not be allowed on a Christian forum. You are a waste of my good time.