Salvation : Is Finished.

[David Lamb]

I believe Jesus did His part to save us, now its upto us to do our part to meet Christ where He is, spiritually.

How does that fit with what Paul wrote to the Ephesian Christians about their salvation? He attributes their salvation (and his own) to the work of God:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this
world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also
we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,
made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made [us] sit together in
the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9
not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:1-10

Nothing there about it being up to them to do their part and meet Christ where He is.

 

[brightfame52]

This is because your calvinist in your belief system.
It creates a lot of problems.

THIS would be one of them.
It makes God RESPONSIBLE for the sins of man.

Jesus clearly states that those IN HIM that do not bear fruit will be taken away by God.
And YOU clearly place the blame of this on Jesus because you believe that God predestinated
everything before the creation of the world.

So, of course, if God predestinated everything...then he predestined sin too...
and He predestined those that will not bear fruit.

§This makes God a very unjust God because He damns persons for doing what HE had preordained for them to do.

At least you're honest BF.

Shows your disregard for the Vine doing its responsibility, and the Vine is Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Shows your disregard for the Vine doing its responsibility, and the Vine is Christ.

Yes sir.
The Vine is CHRIST.

And CHRIST said.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


Every branch IN JESUS --- that would be a saved person....
only saved persons are IN JESUS....

that does not bear fruit,,,GOD takes away.


Plain and simple. God takes away those IN JESUS that do not bear fruit.
Some just refuse to learn what Jesus teaches.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes sir.
The Vine is CHRIST.

And CHRIST said.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


Every branch IN JESUS --- that would be a saved person....
only saved persons are IN JESUS....

that does not bear fruit,,,GOD takes away.


Plain and simple. God takes away those IN JESUS that do not bear fruit.
Some just refuse to learn what Jesus teaches.

You continue to show low respect for the Vine, its the Vines responsibility for the branch to bear fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

You continue to show low respect for the Vine, its the Vines responsibility for the branch to bear fruit.

BF....
Then Jesus is a failure.

Because HE said that those IN HIM
that do not bear fruit
will be cut off, taken away.

It might be your theology that is off...
NOT what Jesus taught.

IF it is His responsibility...
WHY does Jesus teach that we are to continue to abide in Him?

Isn't up to HIM to predestine us to abide in Him?

 

[brightfame52]

BF....
Then Jesus is a failure.

Because HE said that those IN HIM
that do not bear fruit
will be cut off, taken away.

It might be your theology that is off...
NOT what Jesus taught.

IF it is His responsibility...
WHY does Jesus teach that we are to continue to abide in Him?

Isn't up to HIM to predestine us to abide in Him?

Ain't no if, the Vine is responsible for the branches to bear fruit. If you teach that the Vine lost one of His Branches He's responsible for because it didn't bear fruit which He is responsible for it doing, then He failed. The branch cant of its own bear fruit

 

[Behold]

Salvation.......Is Jesus's finished work on The Cross, whereby He has lived a sinless life, kept all the Law and 10 Commandments, and then dies as a Sacrifice to God as God's Salvation offered FREELY for YOU....and ME.......so that our sin can be eternally forgiven, = .....SALVATION that we can receive from God, for free, = what Jesus has completed..... Or as He told us from The Cross..."IT, (Salvation)... is Finished-Accomplished".

See that?

Salvation is completed.... Jesus on The Cross is God's completed Salvation... as proven by the Resurrection.....and its given as a eternal Gift from God, to anyone and everyone who BELIEVES......(Trusts in Christ).......our "Faith is counted by God.. as (Christ's) Righteousness"... given to us for Free.

 

[Behold]

.Now that you have received "the Gift of Salvation">........you are to learn how to exist within it......and that is your discipleship.
And once your have LEARNED the revelation knowledge that is related to understanding your Salvation perfectly, (that you have been given) .....then Paul said this about you....

"As many as be PERFECT".......

See that? That is not behavior.........that is Spiritual and Theological KNOWLEGE regarding Who you have become....as a "new Creation" in CHRIST.,. Its the revelation of who you have become "in Christ"......as "one with God"......and how to use this revelation knowledge by existing in it always as REAL FAITH.
When you get there........you have "put on the Helmet of Salvation", because you have "worked it out".

Some, put it on the Day they received Christ, because they understood fully that their Salvation is not what they do...but what Has been Given to them as "The Gift of Salvation" by God.... Whereas others... it can take 50 yrs for them to understand God's Gift.., and some never understand that God's Gift of Salvaiton, is not something you do or keep.......Its only what God has provided that is Christ's Sacrifice as God's ""Gift of Salvaton.""

LUTHER stated it very simply.....>He said....>>"Jesus has my sin, and I have Christ's Righteousess".

Its really that simple.
Welcome to : God's Grace.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe Jesus did His part to save us, now its upto us to do our part to meet Christ where He is, spiritually.

I have to agree with you.....Jesus did his part perfectly, but we as sinners, have to keep an eye on our own behavior and do our part to stay connected to the vine. If a branch dies and is cut off, is that the vine’s fault? Or was there something wrong with the branch that caused it to become useless? Is the vine benefitted from the branch’s removal? Or is the vine obligated to support something that saps its energy but gives nothing in return?

So many speak of “salvation”....but what is it that we are getting “saved” from?

We have to work hard in sinful flesh not to succumb to its temptations, because if the devil could try to temp the sinless son of God, having already caused the downfall of the two sinless humans who created us, then we are easy pickings for him, who knows all our weaknesses.

Satan created his own weaknesses by desiring what what he had no right to. He tempted the woman by suggesting that God was holding something back from them that was beneficial.....in turn the man was tempted by his loyalty to his wife, over his God. Was there any excuse to fall for these traps?

If we cannot see where the devil will tempt us, in our imperfections, then we are already in trouble because we will be off guard....and what Peter said will be our fate.....
2 Peter 2:20-22...
“Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21  It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

We cannot be the “dog” or the “pig”......we have to remain a washed “sheep”. That takes work and God will support our efforts....but we are not prevented from exercising our free will.
If there was no way to ‘fall off the wagon’, then Peter’s words are meaningless.

 

[Behold]

I have to agree with you.....Jesus did his part perfectly, but we as sinners, have to keep an eye on our own behavior and do our part to stay connected to the vine.

The only way to become a part of the "Vine" is to be born again into it.

You can't do that by trying to be good.....

See......Salvation is God birthing the believer as born again into the "vine".. as Jesus is The True VINE....and to become a part of Him is to become "IN CHRIST".......by spiritual birth.....and that is how you stay there, as that is how you began there.
So, foolish unlearned talk regarding "working to stay"..... where you can't go by works initially, is simply foolish theological nonsense, void of truth.
Its "cult speak".. and nothing more and nothing less.

The reason that self righteous hyper religious people talk about their behavior, behavior, behaivor...... as some sort of self designated religious safety net, (that just might get them into heaven they believe)....., is because they have no understanding of what the Blood Atonement has accomplished regarding all who are actually born again.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation.......Is Jesus's finished work on The Cross, whereby He has lived a sinless life, kept all the Law and 10 Commandments, and then dies as a Sacrifice to God as God's Salvation offered FREELY for YOU....and ME.......so that our sin can be eternally forgiven, = .....SALVATION that we can receive from God, for free, = what Jesus has completed..... Or as He told us from The Cross..."IT, (Salvation)... is Finished-Accomplished".

See that?

Salvation is completed.... Jesus on The Cross is God's completed Salvation... as proven by the Resurrection.....and its given as a eternal Gift from God, to anyone and everyone who BELIEVES......(Trusts in Christ).......our "Faith is counted by God.. as (Christ's) Righteousness"... given to us for Free.

Salvation is finished for all the elect Christ died for, its not offered to them, its finished, and they are made to participate in it by its application to them by the Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ain't no if, the Vine is responsible for the branches to bear fruit. If you teach that the Vine lost one of His Branches He's responsible for because it didn't bear fruit which He is responsible for it doing, then He failed. The branch cant of its own bear fruit

Jesus said it BF....
NOT me.

Jesus said that if a branch IN HIM does not bear fruit...
it gets taken away by God....the vineyard keeper.

If you want to believe that it's a failure on Jesus' part...
so be it.

I believe it's a failing on the part of the believer that does not believe that good works are necessary.
Many state this even though it is not found in the NT.
The NT and the OT teach that God demands obedience.
If Jesus taught that we are to do good works but we do not do them....
then we are disobeying God.

We cannot disobey God and continue to be saved.
John 3:36
36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

 

[Behold]

Salvation is finished for all the elect Christ died for,

Whats the problem?
Is noone fighting with you on other forums again....avoiding you as usual...., so you came here again for that dose of attention you need?

You are the most desperate attenting seeking Hyper Calvinist ive ever seen bouncing from forum to forum......hoping somone will fight with you @brightfame52

Listen, "Jesus came into the world to save Sinners". = 'Everyone who believes".

Faith Elects.
God Saves.

Your Hyper Calvinism is not of God.
How do you know?
Its because God makes Christians.....and Calvin makes Calvinists and they evolve into HyperCalvinists who are even worse.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whats the problem?
Is noone fighting with you on other forums again....avoiding you as usual...., so you came here again for that dose of attention you need?

You are the most desperate attenting seeking Hyper Calvinist ive ever seen bouncing from forum to forum......hoping somone will fight with you @brightfame52

Listen, "Jesus came into the world to save Sinners". = 'Everyone who believes".

Faith Elects.
God Saves.

Your Hyper Calvinism is not of God.
How do you know?
Its because God makes Christians.....and Calvin makes Calvinists and they evolve into HyperCalvinists who are even worse.

Well Behold...
We do agree about something!
Ain't that always the case.

Now if we could just get ALL Christians to ALL believe the same...
it would be wonderful.

How about a Protestant magesterium?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The only way to become a part of the "Vine" is to be born again into it.

Not all Christians need to be “born again” .....only Christ’s elect, who will have their “sealing” confirmed when he resurrects them to immortal spirit life in heaven. Being born again is not some mysterious event that happens in the flesh, but a choosing or sealing for the future when God’s Kingdom will rule redeemed mankind on earth.

You can't do that by trying to be good.....

No one can do anything by “trying to be good”.....Christ paid for the sins we committed in ignorance or those we commit in error, or a lack of good judgment, but about which we are completely repentant. Without repentance no forgiveness can take place. Without acknowledging our sin there can be no repentance. You are lost in no man’s land if you think you can sin and it doesn’t matter. (Rom 6:23)

What Christ offers to mankind is not a licence to sin, but a means to get a grip on our sinful selves and make an effort to hold to his teachings closely. Self control is a fruit of God’s spirit for a reason.

See......Salvation is God birthing the believer as born again into the "vine".. as Jesus is The True VINE....and to become a part of Him is to become "IN CHRIST".......by spiritual birth.....and that is how you stay there, as that is how you began there.
So, foolish unlearned talk regarding "working to stay"..... where you can't go by works initially, is simply foolish theological nonsense, void of truth.
Its "cult speak".. and nothing more and nothing less.

Or perhaps your own musings are your own “cult speak”?

1 Peter 2:11-16...
“Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which wage war against you. 12  Maintain your conduct fine among the nations, so that when they accuse you of being wrongdoers, they may be eyewitnesses of your fine works and, as a result, glorify God in the day of his inspection.
13  For the Lord’s sake subject yourselves to every human creation, whether to a king as being superior 14  or to governors as sent by him to punish wrongdoers but to praise those who do good. 15  For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorant talk of unreasonable men. 16  Be as free people, using your freedom, not as a cover for doing wrong, but as slaves of God.”

Peter makes it pretty clear....we cannot use our freedom to “cover” wrongdoing. Slaves obey their master.

The reason that self righteous hyper religious people talk about their behavior, behavior, behaivor...... as some sort of self designated religious safety net, (that just might get them into heaven they believe)....., is because they have no understanding of what the Blood Atonement has accomplished regarding all who are actually born again.

Or there are those who foolishly think that their behavior doesn’t matter.....?

It isn’t about ‘getting into heaven’ and it never was.....it’s about the restoration of God’s first purpose for the human race.....that was never in heaven. Mankind was created to live on this earth...and that is exactly where the majority will live out an everlasting life in the paradise conditions he originally meant for them.

What God starts...he finishes. (Isa 55:11) And the rulership of his Kingdom is what will accomplish it.

 

[Behold]

Not all Christians need to be “born again”

I'll just stop you there, and note that you have again defined yourself as a Cross Denying Cult member, and of the worst type, as only a deceived fool could possibly believe that being a Christian is not ALWAYS related to being born again.

"JW" is the worst Cult, that falsely defines itself as "christian"... as it openly denies EVERYTHING that Christians know to be true.
Its an amazingly Satanic theology.

 

[Behold]

What Christ offers to mankind is not a licence to sin, but a means to get a grip on our sinful selves and make an effort to hold to his teachings closely.

What Christ "offers" is forgiveness for your sin, so that you can become born again Spiritually = by God's Holy Spirit.

Your Cult does not believe this, and that makes your JW cult very ungodly, and a complete "doctrine of Devils".

Or there are those who foolishly think that their behavior doesn’t matter.....?

Behavior can't gain you God's Salvation.......so, in that context, behavior is not necessary.

Where "behavior" comes in, is AFTER you are born again.....and then you are to "present you body as a living sacrifice to God", Paul teaches.

This is "discipleship"........not Salvation.

It isn’t about ‘getting into heaven’ and it never was...

You can't go to heaven, unless you are reconciled to God through The Cross of Christ, while you are on this earth....before you die.

Why is that so?
Its because unless you are reconciled to God, on earth, then you will '"""die in your sins""""..Jesus said, and that situation does not allow you to enter heaven.....after you die.
This is why Jesus told you....."you must be born again"......on earth....as that means you are forgiven your sin, and have become reconciled to God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'll just stop you there, and note that you have again defined yourself as a Cross Denying Cult member, and of the worst type, as only a deceived fool could possibly believe that being a Christian is not ALWAYS related to being born again.

"JW" is the worst Cult, that falsely defines itself as "christian"... as it openly denies EVERYTHING that Christians know to be true.
Its an amazingly Satanic theology.

I can imagine the Jews saying exactly the same kinds of things about Jesus and his disciples.....but Jesus will show us all soon enough if we pass muster....you are not my judge, nor am I yours.
Jesus has one truth to defend....and I have faith that he will do just that, to the horror of all who promote what he condemns. (Matt 7:21-23) It’s going to be a rude shock.

You can't go to heaven, unless you are reconciled to God through The Cross of Christ, while you are on this earth....before you die.

Show us please where any Jew was expecting to go to heaven to enjoy the benefits of Messiah’s kingdom?
Adam wasn’t ever told about a prospect of heaven or hell.....only life or death.

Jesus was Jewish and he was the one who introduced a new concept......that the Kingdom was actually heavenly, rather than an earthly arrangement. All who serve in this “government” of God (Isa 9:6) will have lived the life of a human on earth.....qualifying them to be compassionate “kings and priests” like their exemplar. (Rev 20:6)

Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties....if all Christians go to heaven....over whom will they rule and act as priests?

Why is that so?
Its because unless you are reconciled to God, on earth, then you will '"""die in your sins""""..Jesus said, and that situation does not allow you to enter heaven.....after you die.
This is why Jesus told you....."you must be born again"......on earth....as that means you are forgiven your sin, and have become reconciled to God.

Being “born again” pertains only to the “elect”....they are “chosen” or “elected” for a reason...and it is by God alone, not simply by becoming a baptized Christian disciple. You have “all chiefs and no Indians” in your belief system.
And one who shuns baptism as a Christian requirement...even your beloved Paul was baptized. (Acts 9:17-18)

Those who will “die in their sins” are those alive in this judgment period where Jesus is personally separating the “sheep from the goats”......those found to be “goats”, when he comes to judge the world, regardless of the label they wear, will not survive the judgment. Jesus knows who the “sheep” are.....but the “goats” are completely oblivious.

It will be very interesting to see who is still standing when Armageddon is over.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus said it BF....
NOT me.

Jesus said that if a branch IN HIM does not bear fruit...
it gets taken away by God....the vineyard keeper.

If you want to believe that it's a failure on Jesus' part...
so be it.

I believe it's a failing on the part of the believer that does not believe that good works are necessary.
Many state this even though it is not found in the NT.
The NT and the OT teach that God demands obedience.
If Jesus taught that we are to do good works but we do not do them....
then we are disobeying God.

We cannot disobey God and continue to be saved.
John 3:36
36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

Jesus can say if and still be responsible for the branches in Him bearing fruit. You saying branches in Him become unfruitful and worthless and cast away. Thats His Job as the Vine to bear fruit.

When Jesus saw the fig tree that end up having no fruit, He cursed the tree for being unfruitful, not the branches. Its the tree thats no good if it doesnt bear fruit, same with the Vine, if it doesnt bear fruit as it should, its defective.

 

[brightfame52]

Whats the problem?
Is noone fighting with you on other forums again....avoiding you as usual...., so you came here again for that dose of attention you need?

You are the most desperate attenting seeking Hyper Calvinist ive ever seen bouncing from forum to forum......hoping somone will fight with you @brightfame52

Listen, "Jesus came into the world to save Sinners". = 'Everyone who believes".

Faith Elects.
God Saves.

Your Hyper Calvinism is not of God.
How do you know?
Its because God makes Christians.....and Calvin makes Calvinists and they evolve into HyperCalvinists who are even worse.

When Jesus saves a person then they believe. Salvation brings believing in Him