The Future Great Tribulation Is 3.5 Years Long, The Beast And Two Witnesses Will Be On This Earth In Power Until The End
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I presume that's a yes. My issue is with Dan 2.39. Did the third kingdom rule over the whole world? At that time, I'd say no. If that's the case, then maybe we need to interpret the use of the words "whole earth etc" to the region centred around Jerusalem. Your thoughts? If we apply this throughout scripture, Zephaniah and others take on a whole different meaning.
I quoted Daniel 7:27 which tells us that all of the earth under the heavens would be given to the saints.
Daniel 7:28: - Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
Dougggggggg, what you are saying is that quoting scripture is a difficult way of communicating God's truth, unlike you who creates confusion with your private and weird understanding of God's precious words/scriptures.
There is no common topology between Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. Because past theologians wanting to imply a political implication by their demonisation of the RCC and the Pope we are still stuck with their flawed interpretations.
Daniel 2 is all about who had dominion over the land of Babylon from the time of Neb, right up to the end of the Seventh Age, including what is happening to the Nations and Empires that are exercising their dominion over the Land of Babylon this present time.
On the other hand, Daniel 7, 8 and 9 tell us how the beastly heavenly winds/angels have the ability to exercise their influence over people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires to manifest their respective dominate characteristic so that the real beasts, i.e. the fallen heavenly hosts, are hidden behind the manifesting portions of the sea of humanity.
The reformation fathers by falsely linking the prophetic messages in Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 9 into a mismatched interpretation where humanity became the visible face of the beasts and as such enabling them to point to the RCC as the beast and the False Prophet.
In Daniel 7:2 and 8:8 the expression, "the four winds of heaven" is pointing towards the fact that the actual beasts, as Paul in Ephesians 6:12 tells us,
Ephesians 6:12: - For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
are the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. angels, who joined Satan when he rebelled against God in the heavenlies.
While ever we do not recognise that the five beasts in Danile 7 are Angels as written about in the scriptures, we will be lead by the nose into poorly framed understanding.
Shalom
I'd tend to suggest the prophecies of Dan 2,7,8,9,11,12 are all related to one another, each supplying further information to expand our understanding. I'd go even further to say there is a reasonable possibility that each of them applies fully to our own day, aswe near the 7th day of rest, His millennial rule. We are so used to thinking in terms of history, we may have forgotten to think in terms of prophecy.
"I quoted Daniel 7:27 which tells us that all of the earth under the heavens would be given to the saints."
I agree there are instances where the wording "all of the earth" ," whole world" applies to the whole world, but it would appear not in many cases.
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No such thing as a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth to be found in scripture as you have clearly been shown without a response to my postings # 177/178 as you run from the biblical truth presented "Why"?
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Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?
The Above Claims (Don't Exist)
Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ
100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time
2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth to stand on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half. The day of His return begins the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this present earth, which He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
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Zechariah Chapter 14 Shows The Eternal Kingdom
Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.
(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below
(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.
(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.
(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.
(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
"The Eternal Kingdom"!
Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
No, the New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem do not begin in Zechariah 14. But the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this present earth.
In Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Differently, the New Earth will have no seas.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How do you reconcile your understanding of Zechariah 14 with what Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-13, which is that the Lord will burn up the heavens and the earth when He comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night?
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Paul made it clear that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day the Lord Jesus comes unexpected as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
No mortals will escape and survive Christ's return, so there will be no mortals for Him to rule over at that point. I am certain that Peter and Paul understood Zechariah 14 and the Old Testament much better than any of us do and they clearly did not interpret Zechariah 14 the way you do.
Look at the text again. It is the "day of the Lord" in 2Peter3:10. Instead, you wrote when "He comes" in your question.
The "day of the Lord" (called the day of Christ in 2Thessalonians2:2) begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4. (see my chart below, left side for the beginning of the day of the Lord)
The day of the Lord will last for eternity. It will have no end. If you read 2Peter3:10 - "in which", the destruction of the present heaven and earth will take place. (see my chart below, which the destruction is right after the last rebellion of the nations in Revelation 20)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So? The day of the Lord is the day that Jesus will return and we will be gathered to Him.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Obviously, Christ is the Lord, so "the day of Christ" is the day of the Lord. Other translations have "the day of the Lord in verse 2. So, with that in mind, why would you question me equating the day of the Lord with the day of His coming when that is what Paul did?
No, the day of the Lord brings unexpected and "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
You are associating the transgression of desolation act with 2 Thessalonians 2:4, but Paul indicated that the mass falling away and revealing of the man of sin occur before the day of the Lord when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him. Nowhere does he indicate that those things are part of the day of the Lord. In your view, the day of the Lord does not bring unexpected and sudden destruction upon unbelievers as Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. So, your view of the day of the Lord blatantly contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
This comes across as if you're saying that you think that the heavens and earth will be burned up for eternity. But, I can't imagine you're intending to say that, so what are you saying? Do you think that the destruction Peter describes in relation to the day of the Lord is not the same as the "sudden destruction" that Paul described in relation to the day of the Lord from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"?
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Your Claim Is 100% False
As you were clearly shown, Zechariah Chapter 14 represents (The Day Of The Lord) when Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement, Zechariah 14:12 shows the fire judgement as men are consumed by the Lord's fire as they stand on their feet
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
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I Will Get Back To You? "Lol"
The post below is "Self Explanatory" Revelation 20-1-6 doesn't represent a 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, as it represents the Lord's eternal "Spiritual Realm"
Read It Again, Clear, Simple, And Before Your Eyes, Where Is A Literal Kingdom Upon This Earth Seen Below With Mortal Humans Present?
A Mortal Kingdom Upon This Earth Doesn't Exist In Revelation 20:1-6 Below, Will You Claim It Does?
Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?
The Above Claims (Don't Exist)
Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ
100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time
2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
No, the Day of the Lord is not the day of Jesus's return. The day of Jesus's return will be day 2520 of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.
And the resurrection/rapture event will not be post-trib, as you are describing.
"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him" is referring to the resurrection/rapture event.
The rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4. See my chart down below regarding the rapture timing - anytime between today and the transgression of desolation act.
When the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4, triggering the beginning of the Day of Lord - God's wrath will begin to be poured out.
The Antichrist's action will end the world saying "peace and safety" of the false messianic age. See my chart down below.
The falling away will be during the false messianic age of the Antichrist, false King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah. The transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist will reveal him to be the "man of sin" and not the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah. See my second chart down below of the 5 stages of the little horn person, Stage 4.
The resurrection/rapture is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, before the Day of the Lord begins, when God's wrath will begin to be poured out.
1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
This present earth and its heaven will be completely destroyed right before the Great White Throne Judgement as I show on my chart below. No, its' destruction is not the "sudden destruction" of 1Thessalonians5. That "sudden destruction" is referring to the damage done during the great tribulation, also on my chart below.
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You did not address what I wrote regarding Zechariah 14 not being the New heaven, New earth, New Jerusalem as you are claiming.
In Zechariah 14:8, living waters will go out from Jerusalem to seas. The New earth will have no sea, as it says in Revelation 21:1. Zechariah 14 is referring to Jesus's return and the beginning of his 1000 year millennium reign.
In Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Differently, the New Earth will have no seas.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
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