Does Daniel 7:21–22 Support Amillennialism or Premillennialism?

[Truth7t7]

Plese note that the dates provided above are approximate dates when these events may take place.

So basically your putting out time frames and you really don't know

 

[Jay Ross]

So basically your putting out time frames and you really don't know

because the lack of associativity of our Georgian calendar with the calendar 2,000 years ago I made the note that

Please note that the dates provided above are approximate dates as to when these events may take place.

The dates that I have suggested are as fluid as the year in which Christ was born which has been suggested to have occurred between 7 BC and 0 AD

If we assume that Christ was born in the year 4 BC, then the suggested dates I provided are, I believe are fairly accurate.

Please note that I have not provided any dates as to when the 70th week of years will occur.

 

[Douggg]

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

How many days is 3.5 years ? Is it more than 7 days ? Is it more than 490 days ?

 

[Truth7t7]

How many days is 3.5 years ? Is it more than 7 days ? Is it more than 490 days ?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal future days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology, it's that simple

 

[Marty fox]

Daniel 7:9-10 represents the second coming and final judgement, this takes place in the twinkling of an eye when mortal becomes immortal, God's in the eternal spiritual realm

Daniel 7:9-10KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:21 & Revelation 11:7 are parallel readings that are upon earth when the (Two Witnesses) are physically killed at the end of the future tribulation

Daniel 7:22 & Revelation 11:15 are parallel readings that take place at the second coming when mortal becomes immortal the New Heaven and Earth are established "Forever" Revelation 11:15 is its parallel reading

Daniel 7:18, Daniel 7:22 & Revelation 11:15 are parallel readings

Daniel 7:18KJV
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Daniel 7:21-22KJV
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 11:7-15KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Okay but do you believe that verses 9-10 shows a scene in heaven like in revelation chapter 22 or on the earth?

 

[PinSeeker]

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal future days.

There will be a lot of... hand-wringing <smile> ...over this comment, I'm sure, but...

Scriptural numerology is a very interesting study... and is not always the same from passage to passage, writer to writer. Much of Daniel is apocalyptic in genre and highly symbolic, just as is John's Revelation. So many if not most of these numbers should be seen in the same light. Seven is a number of completeness throughout Scripture, as is ten. Additionally, so is three, and so is twelve... and multiples of these numbers, like seventy and one thousand. The point here is that to see any of these numbers as woodenly literal, even with regard to days or weeks or years, is... highly suspect, to say the least. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology, it's that simple

Ah, well, the Holy Spirit ~ Who along with the Father and the Son is God, of course ~ used Daniel to convey God's Word. This was the job/office of the prophets of old, not to "make predictions" or "be fortune tellers," but to relate God's words to His people. As the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1, "(l)ong ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets" Daniel... Daniel himself didn't fully understand everything he wrote in his prophecy; we can see this in what Peter says (also inspired by the Holy Spirit), "it was revealed to (the prophets) that they were serving not themselves but you..." ('you' being those who Peter was writing to... and us, by extension) "...in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven..." (1 Peter 1:12).

So... it's not that "simple." God is certainly not simple. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What straw man are you pulling on me now? Don't you comprehend the difference between using Chatgpt as a tool in regards to a writing assistant vs one getting their theology from Chatgpt? Maybe some of you don't need a writing assistant, so to speak. That doesn't mean the same might be true of everyone. I wouldn't even be using Chatgpt as a writing assistant to begin with, so to speak, if it was not for the fact that I lost count of how many times someone has complained I'm hard to follow at times. Where I then assumed it was likely because I wasn't communicating my thoughts well enough. Even @Spiritual Israelite agreed that for me to use Chatgpt as a writing assistance, so to speak, is a good idea not a bad idea. But you want to turn it into a straw man and make it be something it isn't.

If the end result of the ChatGPT reformatting of your words reflects what you believe, then I'm totally fine with you using ChatGPT for that purpose. I welcome you doing anything you can to make your points more clear since I sometimes can't figure out what you're trying to say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Op Continued...

So the only real question left is: Where in Revelation 20 does Daniel 7:21–22 belong?

The 3 Options for Daniel 7:21 (Only One Works)

Here are the only three possible placements of Daniel 7:21 (the war with the saints):

1) Daniel 7:21 → Revelation 20:4 (persecution before the reign)

2) Daniel 7:21 + Revelation 20:4 (persecution and reign happening at the same time)

3) Revelation 20:4 → Daniel 7:21 (reign happens before the persecution — during Satan’s little season)


Let’s test them.

Option 2: Parallel During the Thousand Years

This doesn’t work for either Amils or Premils.

Amil view: Satan and the beast are bound during the thousand years. How can the beast be waging war on the saints during that time?

Premil view: The beast is in the lake of fire during the thousand years. Again, he can’t be making war if he’s already judged.

So Option 2 fails for both camps.

Option 3: Persecution Happens After the Reign

This would place Daniel 7:21 after Daniel 7:22 — but Daniel 7:22 clearly ends the persecution:

“...the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of Days came...”​

You can’t place 7:21 after 7:22. That would violate the plain sequence of the text.

Option 1: War Before the Reign

This is the only view that works:

• 
  Daniel 7:21 — persecution of saints
  Daniel 7:22 — judgment given to saints, kingdom possessed
• Revelation 20:4 — saints reign with Christ for 1000 years

This view:

Honors the sequence in Daniel 7

Fits perfectly with Revelation 20:4

Doesn’t require contradictions about Satan or the beast’s location/status

The Bottom Line

If Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4 (and the evidence strongly points that way), then Daniel 7:21 must come before Revelation 20:4.

That creates a serious problem for Amillennialism.

Because Amils claim Revelation 20:4 refers to the beginning of the church age, around 2,000 years ago.

So they must now explain:

What “coming of the Ancient of Days” happened 2,000 years ago to fulfill Daniel 7:22?

When did the persecution of Daniel 7:21 happen before that?

How is this consistent with Satan and the beast being bound during the 1,000 years?

Conclusion

Once you link Daniel 7:22 with Revelation 20:4 — which is the most natural reading — you’re forced to place Daniel 7:21 before it.

That timeline fits cleanly in Premillennialism.

But for Amillennialism, it breaks everything.

And unless someone can convincingly disconnect Daniel 7:22 from Revelation 20:4 (and explain why the same rare phrase shows up in both), the Premil view stands on stronger textual and chronological ground.

There is a lot more to this than what covered in your original posts. It is not as simple as you're making it out to be. There are other much more clear, straightforward scriptures than this that can be used to form the foundation of your doctrine, but, for some reason, you choose to use some of the most difficult scriptures as the foundation of your doctrine. I don't get that at all.

Anyway, in Daniel 7:2-14, Daniel described the visions that he had while sleeping in his bed. In Daniel 7:17-27 the angel explains what the visions meant.

One of the visions Daniel saw is described here:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You're talking about when Daniel 7:21-22 is fulfilled. To me, it's obvious that Daniel 7:21-22 is part of the explanation that the angel gave for what Daniel 7:13-14 was about. But, Daniel 7:13-14 describes the ascension of Christ to God the Father in heaven. Just compare Daniel 7:13-14 to the following passage and notice the obvious similarities:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The Son of man coming to the Ancient of Days corresponds with Jesus ascending to heaven and being placed at the right hand of God the Father. The Son of man being given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages, should serve him" and His dominion being everlasting corresponds with Him being placed at God the Father's right hand "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" with "all things under his feet" while being made "the head over all things to the church".

So, judgment being given to the saints has to do with power and authority being given to those who belong to Christ that He shares with His people who have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into His kingdom (Colossians 1:12-13). So, this places the timing of Daniel 7:21-22 around the time of Christ's first coming, not His second coming.

What is your understanding of the four beasts? Do you not see the fourth beast as being the Roman empire?

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Notice that it talks about the fourth beast being "diverse from all the beasts that were before it". In Daniel 7:23 it describes the beasts as kingdoms. So, the fourth beast represents a kingdom that is diverse and more powerful than the three beast kingdoms that come before it in succession, which would have been the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek empires.

To try to apply all of Daniel 7 to the future the way you do contradicts the reference to Christ's ascension and what happened at that time and to successive ancient world empires/kingdoms which are also referenced in Daniel 2 and 8.

If you want to make a convincing argument to prove Premillennialism, then how about using more clear, straightforward scriptures instead of more difficult and highly debatable scriptures like Daniel 7? Can you do that? That is what I did here to support Amillennialism: Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

If your doctrine contradicts the clear, straightforward passages that I reference in that thread, as Premillennialism does, then you need to reconsider your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe because I have some arguments of my own that I tend to think might trump some of your arguments. Such as.

Let me try and be a bit clearer here, regardless whether you want to agree or not.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Until the Ancient of days came---this is meaning the following for one--Revelation 19:11-21.

But that is only a portion of verse 22. There is more, such as this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---meaning this in Revelation 20:4---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

Then there is also this in verse 22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---meaning everything recorded in Revelation 20:4, that that is what marks when the time has come for the saints to possess the kingdom. Not only does Revelation 20:4 mark the beginning of that time, so does Revelation 11:15 mark the beginning of when the saints possess the kingdom. Obviously, when the time comes that they possess the kingdom, it can't precede the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

And that in Premil thinking, not Amil thinking, the 7th trumpet marks the beginning of the thousand years once the beast and it's armies are dealt with first and are never among the living upon the earth ever again(Revelation 19:20-21). Not to mention, the sheep and goats judgment also marks the beginning of when the saints take possession of the kingdom.

After all, it does say the following, for one--, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world(Matthew 24:34). If that it is not a clear example of taking possession of the kingdom, what is it a clear example of? IMO, The sheep and goats judgment match both Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 19:21, yet is not involving Revelation 20:11-15 at this point.

IOW, the sheep and goats judgment is only involving OSAS and NOSAS within the body of Christ, the church. The sheep being the profitable servants within the church, the goats being the unprofitable within the church. Unlike the GWTJ where no one is depicted as standing on His right vs standing upon His left, and each group as a whole answering Jesus in the same manner. No one is doing anything like that in Revelation 20:11-15, answering Jesus in the same manner, as if they have been divided into 2 groups.

Here is how the goats as a group answer Jesus.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Imagine someone such as Cain standing among the goats and he too answering Jesus in this same manner? Then shall Cain also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Come on now, seriously, that makes sense of the text exactly how???

As I just indicated in my previous post, Daniel 7:17-27 is the angel's explanation for the visions that Daniel described in Daniel 7:2-14. How do you interpret Daniel 7:13-14 and where do you think the explanation for the meaning of those verses can be found within Daniel 7:17-27?

As for what you're saying about the sheep and goats judgment, are you not aware that all people, including atheists, will be bowing their knees and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord? So, everyone will be calling Him "Lord" when the judgment occurs.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I knew that Preterists, Partial Preterists and Amillennialists who feel the need to are immediately going to do this:

1. Attack you for using ChatGPT - even though it was only to write what you wanted to write in a clearer format.

2. Assert that Daniel 7:21 = Nero.

But that means that Revelation 11:15-19 has already been fulfilled. Preterists & Partial Preterists will assert that it occurred in 70 A.D, but the rest of the Amillennialists who disagree with them about that, will just get everything confused and be dancing around the scriptures again trying to get them to comply with Amilennialsm.

And that's already happened in this thread.

But to me it's so clear (note that Daniel 7:19-22 are explained in Daniel 7:23-27):

Daniel 7:21 & 25 = Revelation 11:7; 13:7: The beast's war against the saints of the Most High.
Daniel 7:22 & 26 = Revelation 19:20 - beast destroyed (there's NO "beast" being spoken of in Revelation 20:7-9); and verse 10 of Revelation 20 says:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Daniel 7:27 = Revelation 11:15:

"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign to the ages of the ages."

The souls John saw in Revelation 20:4 are identified by the text as those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark on their right hands or on their foreheads.

Revelation 11:11-12 = Revelation 20:4:

"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.:

Daniel speaks about what leads to it here:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (Daniel 7:21-22).

And it's explained here:

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." (Daniel 7:25-27).

I believe (IMO) the foreshadow of the 4th beast and of the end time is Antiochus IV Epiphanes but he did not complete the time of the end but he became a forerunner (type).

Amills will ritually dance around on these passages like they're walking on hot coals. They have to. And it's already started in this thread.

Do you understand that Daniel's visions were recorded in Daniel 7:2-14 and then the angel explained the meaning of them in Daniel 7:17-27? So, how do you interpret Daniel 7:13-14 and where do you think it is explained within Daniel 7:17-27?

As for dancing around passages, that is what Premills do regarding MANY passages of scripture, including the ones I referenced in this thread in the second post: Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay but do you believe that verses 9-10 shows a scene in heaven like in revelation chapter 22 or on the earth?

What I explained below is detailed, the event takes place in God's eternal spiritual, Revelation chapters 21-22 are in God's eternal realm

Daniel 7:9-10 represents the second coming and final judgement, this takes place in the twinkling of an eye when mortal becomes immortal, God's in the eternal spiritual realm

Daniel 7:9-10KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, judgment being given to the saints has to do with power and authority being given to those who belong to Christ that He shares with His people who have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into His kingdom (Colossians 1:12-13). So, this places the timing of Daniel 7:21-22 around the time of Christ's first coming, not His second coming.

Your Claim In Bold Red Above Is 100% "False"

Daniel 7:22 is placed at the second coming "Final Judgement" as you falsely state it represents the first coming, "Really"

The scripture and the chapter context is clear (Until The Ancient Of Days Came) Daniel 7:9-10 shows the exact same future second coming, Daniel 7:18 shows the saints possessing the forever, even forever and ever kingdom

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 below clearly shows the saints will stand in Judgement with God against the unsaved world and evil angels at the "Final Judgement"

Daniel 7:22KJV
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3KJV
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[Marty fox]

What I explained below is detailed, the event takes place in God's eternal spiritual, Revelation chapters 21-22 are in God's eternal realm

Daniel 7:9-10 represents the second coming and final judgement, this takes place in the twinkling of an eye when mortal becomes immortal, God's in the eternal spiritual realm

Daniel 7:9-10KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

So is the in heaven or on the eart.

Then what do you believe versus 13-14 are?

 

[Truth7t7]

So is the in heaven or on the eart.

Then what do you believe versus 13-14 are?

You've been answered in great detail regarding heaven or on earth, no need to continue to ask the answered question again

I Believe Daniel 7:13-14 & 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 are parallel readings

Jesus comes in the clouds at the second coming when time ceases, Jesus conquers the last enemy death as he's brought in subjection to God the father when God will be all in all

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:26-28KJV
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Davy]

The answer to the Thread's question should be easy for anyone who actually READS the below Scripture...

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, "We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned."

18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

(Remember: the above is only Revelation 11. The Revelation 20 Chapter gives more detail for after Christ's future return with a literal "thousand years" reign over those above angry nations.)

But the above is simple. With Christ's coming on that 7th Trumpet, all the kingdoms of this world at that point become those of The Father and His Son. And those "nations" will be angry at that.

Would true Christians be angry at Christ's coming and taking reign over ALL nations on earth? NO, not a true Christian would mind that at all! Instead, await that event in hope and in Faith.

So WHO would those angry nations be pointing to when Jesus comes? To UNSAVED nations, the very ones mentioned in the prophets and by Jesus in Revelation 20 that He will reign over with His elect saints.

 

[Marty fox]

You've been answered in great detail regarding heaven or on earth, no need to continue to ask the answered question again

I Believe Daniel 7:13-14 & 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 are parallel readings

Jesus comes in the clouds at the second coming when time ceases, Jesus conquers the last enemy death as he's brought in subjection to God the father when God will be all in all

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:26-28KJV
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I was asking again because I don't know what you mean exactly by Gods eternal realm is that in heaven or on the earth?

If verses 9-10 are the second coming then how come Jesus is seen on the clouds after that?

Notice that Jesu sis coming on the clods to heaven not to the earth?

 

[Davy]

I was asking again because I don't know what you mean exactly by Gods eternal realm is that in heaven or on the earth?

If verses 9-10 are the second coming then how come Jesus is seen on the clouds after that?

Notice that Jesu sis coming on the clods to heaven not to the earth?

1 Thess.4 declares Jesus' future 2nd coming in the clouds, Isaiah 19:1 on a cloud, Dan.7:13 with the clouds, Matt.24:30 in the clouds of heaven (sky), a cloud took Him up per Acts 1:19 when He ascended to Heaven.

1 Thess.4:16 declares Jesus will 'descend' from Heaven, Matt.25:31 when Jesus comes to sit upon His throne (on earth), Acts 1:11 Jesus shall come in like manner as He ascended to Heaven on a cloud, 2 Thess.1:7 Jesus is revealed FROM Heaven not in Heaven, Rev.1:7 all on earth shall see Jesus coming with clouds. Zech.14 Jesus feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from.

Make no mistake: Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, literally, to the very spot on earth where He ascended to Heaven from, the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

 

[Marty fox]

1 Thess.4 declares Jesus' future 2nd coming in the clouds, Isaiah 19:1 on a cloud, Dan.7:13 with the clouds, Matt.24:30 in the clouds of heaven (sky), a cloud took Him up per Acts 1:19 when He ascended to Heaven.

1 Thess.4:16 declares Jesus will 'descend' from Heaven, Matt.25:31 when Jesus comes to sit upon His throne (on earth), Acts 1:11 Jesus shall come in like manner as He ascended to Heaven on a cloud, 2 Thess.1:7 Jesus is revealed FROM Heaven not in Heaven, Rev.1:7 all on earth shall see Jesus coming with clouds. Zech.14 Jesus feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from.

Make no mistake: Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, literally, to the very spot on earth where He ascended to Heaven from, the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

Of course, He's coming back to the earth I didn't dispute that my point was in Daniel 7:13-14 Jesus is going on the clouds too heaven not to the earth. I also believe that this happened when He ascended back up to heaven in Acts chapter 1.

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

[Davy]

Of course, He's coming back to the earth I didn't dispute that my point was in Daniel 7:13-14 Jesus is going on the clouds too heaven not to the earth. I also believe that this happened when He ascended back up to heaven in Acts chapter 1.

Your phrase, "Jesus is going on the clouds to heaven not to the earth," is confusing though. That because Jesus will DESCEND from Heaven, not the sky, but from that other dimension of the Heavenly where The Father and the angels dwell. That is where He was taken up to in a cloud per Acts 1. The actual cloud He ascended in is... of the earth's sky atmosphere. And that is what is meant with His coming in the clouds.

So it sounds like you are not aware that God's Word calls both the sky around the earth as 'heaven', and also the dimension of Spirit where The Father dwells as 'Heaven'. It's important to not confuse the two. The sky around the earth is part of the earthly material dimension. But the Heavenly dimension where God dwells is not made of material matter, but is of Spirit as He is a Spirit (John 4:24).

Now as to Jesus' destination when He DESCENDS out of Heaven, actually is... back to this earth, literally, to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem (Zech.14; Acts 1).

 

[Marty fox]

Your phrase, "Jesus is going on the clouds to heaven not to the earth," is confusing though. That because Jesus will DESCEND from Heaven, not the sky, but from that other dimension of the Heavenly where The Father and the angels dwell. That is where He was taken up to in a cloud per Acts 1. The actual cloud He ascended in is... of the earth's sky atmosphere. And that is what is meant with His coming in the clouds.

So it sounds like you are not aware that God's Word calls both the sky around the earth as 'heaven', and also the dimension of Spirit where The Father dwells as 'Heaven'. It's important to not confuse the two. The sky around the earth is part of the earthly material dimension. But the Heavenly dimension where God dwells is not made of material matter, but is of Spirit as He is a Spirit (John 4:24).

Now as to Jesus' destination when He DESCENDS out of Heaven, actually is... back to this earth, literally, to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem (Zech.14; Acts 1).

Sure but Acts 1 only says that a cloud hid Him not that He went up on a cloud.

My point was that Daviel 7:13-14 happened when He went back up to heaven in Acts chapter 1.

Coming on the clouds or a day of clouds in actually a symbolic sign of judgement