Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[GodsGrace]

Paul defines "soul" in his letters similarly to the Greek philosophers before him - Plato, Aristotle, etc.

David and Moses and Ezekiel don't use that definition. When they say "soul" they usually just mean "person" or "self."

We shouldn't take Paul's use of the word and read it backwards into things written a thousand years earlier. It leads to weird theology.

I THINK I agree with you.
Some misunderstand Genesis 2:7 and this creates odd doctrine, as you've stated.

Could you explain better what you believe the soul to be?

In the OT it does mean self or personhood.
Doesn't it mean this in the NT as well?

Is a person composed of: BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT ??

 

[Taken]

Paul defines "soul" in his letters similarly to the Greek philosophers before him - Plato, Aristotle, etc.

David and Moses and Ezekiel don't use that definition. When they say "soul" they usually just mean "person" or "self."

We shouldn't take Paul's use of the word and read it backwards into things written a thousand years earlier. It leads to weird theology.

All souls belong to God. The “vessel” / soul and the life in the Soul (Gods breath).

God CREATED the Earth (dry land) from the dust of the earth God FORMED a body, He called man. Then God BLEW into the Formed body… a soul which activates / MAKES Parts of man to operate, which thus gives man ability to communicate.
Eyes see
Ears hear
Tongue tastes
Mouth utters sound
Nose smells
Flesh feels touch

That reveals the Understanding God is the Creator and Maker, two different things.

 

[GodsGrace]

All souls belong to God. The “vessel” / soul and the life in the Soul (Gods breath).

God CREATED the Earth (dry land) from the dust of the earth God FORMED a body, He called man. Then God BLEW into the Formed body… a soul which activates / MAKES Parts of man to operate, which thus gives man ability to communicate.
Eyes see
Ears hear
Tongue tastes
Mouth utters sound
Nose smells
Flesh feels touch

That reveals the Understanding God is the Creator and Maker, two different things.

Taken, your list is of the BODY
NOT
of the SOUL.

 

[Taken]

Taken, your list is of the BODY
NOT
of the SOUL.

No …
the body is Formed of dust, by God.
the soul is given the Formed body, by God.

Formed body is created.
Formed Body receiving the soul is specific body parts being MADE to function.

Adam was Formed… he was neither alive or dead…until he was MADE alive upon receiving a soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

No …
the body is Formed of dust, by God.
the soul is given the Formed body, by God.

Formed body is created.
Formed Body receiving the soul is specific body parts being MADE to function.

Adam was Formed… he was neither alive or dead…until he was MADE alive upon receiving a soul.

I'm not going to debate this Taken.

Both the body and the soul are by God.
The spirit of man is also by God.

The first body formed by God had no life.
God breathed life into the body.
Adam's life had both soul and spirit.

Of course a living body WILL have a soul.

But some understand this in different ways.
A person in a coma has a body, but not a soul.

Is that person dead?

Does that person have a MIND, a WILL and EMOTIONS?
99% they do not.
But they're still alive.

Anyway, this gets too nuanced.

 

[Taken]

I'm not going to debate this Taken.

Both the body and the soul are by God.
The spirit of man is also by God.

The first body formed by God had no life.
God breathed life into the body.
Adam's life had both soul and spirit.

Of course a living body WILL have a soul.

Don’t see a debate necessary, you just said in your words the same thing I said in my words.

But some understand this in different ways.
A person in a coma has a body, but not a soul.

False.

Is that person dead?]/QUOTE]

Person in a coma dead? No, they are in a coma!

Does that person have a MIND, a WILL and EMOTIONS?
99% they do not.
But they're still alive.

Yes, still alive. Which just contradicted what you just said.

There are blind people, deaf people, people who can not taste or smell… or can’t remember… so what? If the are living, their soul is still in their body.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don’t see a debate necessary, you just said in your words the same thing I said in my words.



False.

A blind person still has a soul...
ditto for a deaf person, or a person that cannot smell or taste.

A person in a coma has lost his will,,,he has lost his emotions.
These reside in the soul.
A person in a coma no longer has a soul for the above reason.

There is no intentionality.
He cannot raise his arm or cause anything to happen that is NOT ONLY physical
but ALSO of the will or the emotion.

(your post didn't copy correctly).

 

[Wick Stick]

I THINK I agree with you.
Some misunderstand Genesis 2:7 and this creates odd doctrine, as you've stated.

Could you explain better what you believe the soul to be?

In the OT it does mean self or personhood.
Doesn't it mean this in the NT as well?

What it means in the Bible depends on context. There isn't a single definition that can fit every verse.

The most common meaning is just "a person," as in this verse:

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

It can, rarely, refer to the spirit, when it's used parallel to that word, but that's a minority case. Example:
Job 7:11 I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

In the gospels, it most often seems to refer to the mind or a person's state-of-mind. Example:
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Paul is different from other authors. For Paul, the soul is the lower nature of a man, usually in contrast to our higher faculties, which are spirit:
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This idea of higher faculties vs lower nature isn't original to Paul. Aristotle wrote a 500+ page treatise on the subject called 'On the Soul' where he accounts the higher nature (the spiritual) as being intellect and logic and rationality, and the soul by contrast is the essence (ousia) of the body.

Paul doesn't precisely follow Aristotle's idea of soul, which goes into the idea of Platonic forms and whatnot. For Paul, soul is the natural in opposition to the supernatural, the appetites, wrath, and everything that inflames mankind to our own detriment.

Is a person composed of: BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT ??

It depends who you ask.

In most of the Bible, a body is inhabited by a spirit, and together they comprise a soul (a person).

In Greek philosophy, each body is a substance of the form of the soul, and spirit is something of external origin that comes to reside in a man through learning.

In Paul's writings, the body is inhabited by both spirit and soul, which are in a state of conflict with each other. The soul is ever leading us to satisfy our appetites, often to our own destruction, while the spirit seeks to restrain it, bringing it under control. Paul does seem to agree with Aristotle that the Spirit is of external origin, but not that it comes through learning. In Paul, the Spirit comes through baptism, and especially with the laying on of hands.

Sorry for the long post. If a short answer were possible, I would have given it.

 

[GodsGrace]

What it means in the Bible depends on context. There isn't a single definition that can fit every verse.

This is true of some biblical topics....
which is why it's great that Christian theologians have worked out some of this.

The most common meaning is just "a person," as in this verse:

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

On planes persons are referred to as souls. I don't really know why.
(when there's a problem, the pilot is asked how many SOULS are on board).

It can, rarely, refer to the spirit, when it's used parallel to that word, but that's a minority case. Example:
Job 7:11 I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Right.
The OT didn't really distinguish....we have to remember that it was written thousands of years ago and sometimes it even uses HEART to mean soul. (or emotions only at times).

In the gospels, it most often seems to refer to the mind or a person's state-of-mind. Example:
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Here it's used as it's understood today.
The soul being the mind, will and emotions.

Paul is different from other authors. For Paul, the soul is the lower nature of a man, usually in contrast to our higher faculties, which are spirit:
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Thanks! I never noticed this.

This idea of higher faculties vs lower nature isn't original to Paul. Aristotle wrote a 500+ page treatise on the subject called 'On the Soul' where he accounts the higher nature (the spiritual) as being intellect and logic and rationality, and the soul by contrast is the essence (ousia) of the body.

Close,,,,
The spirit of man definitely is higher than the soul of man -
the soul just refers to the non-physical part of man that makes each one of us what we are....
instead our spirit is what reaches out to God.

Paul doesn't precisely follow Aristotle's idea of soul, which goes into the idea of Platonic forms and whatnot. For Paul, soul is the natural in opposition to the supernatural, the appetites, wrath, and everything that inflames mankind to our own detriment.

Agreed !
(Paul would be so happy!)
LOL

It depends who you ask.

In most of the Bible, a body is inhabited by a spirit, and together they comprise a soul (a person).

Do you agree with this?
In my understanding we are a body and a soul.
We receive spirit when we come to believe and this completes the trichotomy.
I believe in a trichotomy.

In Greek philosophy, each body is a substance of the form of the soul, and spirit is something of external origin that comes to reside in a man through learning.

You said:
In Greek philosophy, each body is a substance of the form of the soul, and spirit is something of external origin that comes to reside in a man through learning.


Is this what I just said above?
I don't think so.

In Paul's writings, the body is inhabited by both spirit and soul, which are in a state of conflict with each other. The soul is ever leading us to satisfy our appetites, often to our own destruction, while the spirit seeks to restrain it, bringing it under control. Paul does seem to agree with Aristotle that the Spirit is of external origin, but not that it comes through learning. In Paul, the Spirit comes through baptism, and especially with the laying on of hands.

Yes. I understand the above.
When we receive spirit through becoming believers....
our spirit has an effect on our soul - making it better and bringing under submission.
The sin nature exists in the soul.
God lives in our spirit and effects everything...even our physical bodies by some studies.
Persons that have faith seem to heal faster.

Sorry for the long post. If a short answer were possible, I would have given it.

I like learning and I appreciate all you wrote.

 

[JLB]

In the Bible there is only the first resurrection, no second, only the second death.
No matter what you call it rise first, seems there is only one resurrection, the first resurrection.

‘The resurrection of the dead in Christ is the first resurrection whereby those who are Christ’s will receive a resurrected body like Jesus that will never die.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-54

• We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
  

again


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

• nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[Jack]

Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture​

Why does it even matter? Christian are ready!

 

[Taken]

Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

Likely because you Fail to Understand the NEW Better Testament Offering of Perfection IN Christ, and the Accounting of Righteousness…
And Tribulations To be Sent from Heaven are expressly for the UnRighteous inhabitants upon the Earth.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jericho]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12, Paul says the son of perdition, the Anti-Christ, cannot be revealed until the Restrainer is removed. The anti-Christ spirit has been at work for thousands of years, but the Restrainer is preventing it from culminating in the appearance of the Anti-Christ. There are several views on who or what the Restrainer is, but the two most likely candidates are the Church and the Holy Spirit. If the Restrainer is the Church, it means the Church must be taken out of the way (raptured) before the Anti-Christ is revealed. If the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer, then believers must still must be removed since the Holy Spirit resides in us, and God would not take the Holy Spirit without taking us too. Either way, it means believers must be removed prior to the appearance of the Anti-Christ. When Jesus established the Church, He said, "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" (Mat 16:18). If the Anti-Christ overcame the Church, it would contradict the words of Jesus, and that is not possible.

A blind person still has a soul...
ditto for a deaf person, or a person that cannot smell or taste.

A person in a coma has lost his will,,,he has lost his emotions.
These reside in the soul.
A person in a coma no longer has a soul for the above reason.

Being in a coma is not the same as being dead. If a person wakes from a coma, they still have their emotions, memories, personality, etc.. It's not like those things were lost while they were in a coma, they were merely repressed.

 

[marks]

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12, Paul says the son of perdition, the Anti-Christ, cannot be revealed until the Restrainer is removed. The anti-Christ spirit has been at work for thousands of years, but the Restrainer is preventing it from culminating in the appearance of the Anti-Christ. There are several views on who or what the Restrainer is, but the two most likely candidates are the Church and the Holy Spirit. If the Restrainer is the Church, it means the Church must be taken out of the way (raptured) before the Anti-Christ is revealed. If the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer, then believers must still must be removed since the Holy Spirit resides in us, and God would not take the Holy Spirit without taking us too. Either way, it means believers must be removed prior to the appearance of the Anti-Christ. When Jesus established the Church, He said, "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" (Mat 16:18). If the Anti-Christ overcame the Church, it would contradict the words of Jesus, and that is not possible.

I've come to the conclusion that this restraining of evil has to do with this:

Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

My thinking is that something that cannot be worked for good for a child of God will be disallowed from happening, and this is the restraint of evil.

Once the church is removed, that restraint is no longer needed.

Much love!

 

[Jericho]

Paul defines "soul" in his letters similarly to the Greek philosophers before him - Plato, Aristotle, etc.

And yet, Jesus framed the soul the same way in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[marks]

2 Thessalonians 2 is often referenced to refute a pre-trib rapture, but this passage does the opposite, it supports pre-trib rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There is the gathering unto the Lord, and there is the day of Christ/day of the LORD (depending on your ms.). These are two different things.

If they were in fact the same thing, why would the people be troubled over some one saying "that day is now here"? Check the wording and grammar.

What Paul is saying here is, don't be troubled concerning our being gathered to Jesus because someone is telling you the day of the Lord is here. That day, the day of the Lord, won't come until these other things happen first.

Ergo:

These things haven't happened, so you can know the Day of the Lord is not here. So that being the case, don't be troubled concerning your being gathered to Jesus.

Ask yourself, if the rapture of the church and the Day of the Lord are the same thing, why would they be troubled at someone saying "the day of the Lord is here". The wording "is at hand" is from the Greek enestiken, which is the Perfect Tense for "has in stood", which is to say, "It's arrived, and is here." If they thought that these were the same thing, this would be understood as someone telling them, "It's Rapture Day!"

Don't be worried about being raptured to Jesus, just because someone is telling you "it's the Day of the LORD". Because it's not. The prerequisites haven't happened yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Being in a coma is not the same as being dead. If a person wakes from a coma, they still have their emotions, memories, personality, etc.. It's not like those things were lost while they were in a coma, they were merely repressed.

This is what a coma is:

A coma is a deep state of prolonged unconsciousness in which a person cannot be awakened, fails to respond normally to painful stimuli, light, or sound, lacks a normal sleep-wake cycle and does not initiate voluntary actions.[1] The person may experience respiratory and circulatory problems due to the body's inability to maintain normal bodily functions. People in a coma often require extensive medical care to maintain their health and prevent complications such as pneumonia or blood clots.[2] Coma patients exhibit a complete absence of wakefulness and are unable to consciously feel, speak or move.[3][4] Comas can be the result of natural causes, or can be medically induced, for example, during general anesthesia.[5]

source: Wikipedia


This is what a soul is:

The soul is a complex concept, broadly understood in philosophy and religion as the immaterial essence or spiritual part of a human being, distinct from the physical body and often considered to confer individuality, consciousness, thought, and will.


If you think that a person in a coma...
has the attributes of the person with a soul...
so be it.

 

[marks]

Being in a coma is not the same as being dead. If a person wakes from a coma, they still have their emotions, memories, personality, etc.. It's not like those things were lost while they were in a coma, they were merely repressed.

People even awake with memories of things that happened around them while they were in the coma.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12, Paul says the son of perdition, the Anti-Christ, cannot be revealed until the Restrainer is removed. The anti-Christ spirit has been at work for thousands of years, but the Restrainer is preventing it from culminating in the appearance of the Anti-Christ. There are several views on who or what the Restrainer is, but the two most likely candidates are the Church and the Holy Spirit. If the Restrainer is the Church, it means the Church must be taken out of the way (raptured) before the Anti-Christ is revealed. If the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer, then believers must still must be removed since the Holy Spirit resides in us, and God would not take the Holy Spirit without taking us too. Either way, it means believers must be removed prior to the appearance of the Anti-Christ. When Jesus established the Church, He said, "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" (Mat 16:18). If the Anti-Christ overcame the Church, it would contradict the words of Jesus, and that is not possible.



Being in a coma is not the same as being dead. If a person wakes from a coma, they still have their emotions, memories, personality, etc.. It's not like those things were lost while they were in a coma, they were merely repressed.

I think the restrainer is Michael the Archangel.

Michale has in old and New Testament been a satanic restrainer.

It can't be the Holy Spirit, as He is never taken away. He is omnipresent and with His people, any and all of them while they are on this earth.
He won't abandon us, and He dwells in His people.
And if you read Rev 14, His people are on the earth at the time of antichrist.... etc, or call him the evil one, beast, false prophet and all that happens right till the end of the world, He will not leave us alone.

John 14
15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son​

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and [f]manifest Myself to him.”



And the church is present on the earth right until Jesus returns and destroys the evil one and all the wicked and unbelieving.
Read 2 Thessalonians 1 to see that, it is clear as day.
2 Thess 2, flows right from 2 Thess 1, so you can know we will see Him coming on the clouds...
And one of the things Christ does when He comes is destroy all the wicked and unbelieving, and gather His people to Himself.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Thessalonians 2 describes the contrast between those not saved, and those saved.
Paul tells us we will be gathered to Him and that we will not be gathered until the falling away, that comes first.
We are gathered on the Day of Christ, which is the Day of the Lord. The dragnet describes this.
The end of the age is the Last Day of this first earth.

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

New King James Version
The Great Apostasy
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.