How can you find the truth when biblically supported views contradict?

[Lambano]

What difference does it make? Clearly there is no contradiction!

It's bad enough we try to gaslight those whom we would bring to Christ who can see the contradictions. It's worse when we gaslight ourselves.

 

[Lambano]

 

[rwb]

The Greek word translated "The Word" here does not refer to scripture itself. Logos here in Greek means "the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe" and is the personification of God's creative power like the personified "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8:22-31:

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Logos is a Divine Expression concerning Christ, Who was from the beginning of creation with the Triune Godhead! He is the Creator of all that was created, for this cause He became flesh & blood. Logos is written as "holy Scriptures", "word", "sayings" "gospel of God" things which are written down through Divine Inspiration, being called the Word of God. We are called through the gospel, and according to grace through faith under the power of the Holy Spirit able to repent and believe in Christ, the Word for everlasting life. This is why you cannot separate Christ from His Written Word.

Psalm 119:11 (KJV) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Romans 1:1-6 (KJV) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

 

[Lambano]

Psalm 119:11 (KJV) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

The LXX uses a different Greek word for "word" (Logion) in Psalm 119:11. This one means "God's oracles". This is not the word John uses. That argument doesn't work.

 

[rwb]

I've determined you must be a troll, for who else would try so hard to convince Christians who have not yet studied for themselves, into believing they should not waste their time because you believe the Bible is a contradictory word to deceive the masses.

 

[Lambano]

How can you find the truth when biblically supported views contradict?​

The purpose of this thread is how to find truth in the Bible while recognizing that biblical contradictions really do exist. Gaslighting people doesn't work long term, and when the charade collapses, their faith collapses with it. I've read testimonies from many people that became atheists because they could not sustain the cognitive dissonance.

 

[MatthewG]

How can you find the truth when biblically supported views contradict?​

The purpose of this thread is how to find truth in the Bible while recognizing that biblical contradictions really do exist. Gaslighting people doesn't work long term, and when the charade collapses, their faith collapses with it. I've read testimonies from many people that became atheists because they could not sustain the cognitive dissonance.

I believe God is capable of shaking the faith of people by the truth found. I think many people will walk away ...

If they have to rebuild an entire structure.

 

[Taken]

Notice that it's necessary to conjure up speculate something that's not in the Bible in order to resolve the contradiction. Why do we need to do that?

Because it is “Reasonable”.

 

[ScottA]

Have you really read both chapters?

How can the Lord incite David to sin and then punish him severely for being obedient ?

The answer is also in Isaiah 45 (referring to Cyrus as the darkness, the works of Satan):

“Thus says the Lord to His anointed,​

To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—​

To subdue nations before him​

And loose the armor of kings,​

To open before him the double doors,​

So that the gates will not be shut:​

2 ‘I will go before you​

And make the crooked places straight;​

I will break in pieces the gates of bronze​

And cut the bars of iron.​

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness​

And hidden riches of secret places,​

That you may know that I, the Lord,​

Who call you by your name,​

Am the God of Israel.​

4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,​

And Israel My elect,​

I have even called you by your name;​

I have named you, though you have not known Me.​

This is the work of the Lord and good in His eyes, the men who think they are alive should come to know that they are dead and be broken, that they should call upon the Lord and be saved.

 

[Muna]

I asked a well versed orthodox Jew and he said - Satan is just a servant of the Lord.

Imagine the depth of their blindness.

OTOH, it would explain.

However our Christian minds shiver with these kind of contradictions.

If @Hiddenthings were still here he would be a kid in a candy store on this topic he did bring it up and its not like most of us are not familar with it on the forums when it does come up. I do not shiver over what might appear as a contraction, or a difficult passge I love that that sort of thing and discussing it with those who do not treat such as "a gotcha" your God contradicts himself sort of thing, that tells me all I need to know about them.

It does appear that order to bring judgment on Israel David being incited opened that door to do so because the people got nailed for it as David points out here

2 Sam 24:17 And David spake unto the LORD when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house.

So his hand did not come against David even though David was incited to do this thing.

If we look here also theres an example for good counsel being overthrown by the LORD God in order to bring evil upon Absalom

2 Sam 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

The LORD's intent was defeat the good counsel of one in order to bring evil upon another

Obviously , " My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" Isaiah 46:10

 

[ScottA]

My favorite contradiction: Matthew says Judas Iscariot committed suicide by hanging.

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)

Dr. Luke says he fell (or was he pushed?)

Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. (Acts 1:18)

No less a luminary than John MacArthur had to invent some cockamamie story about the rope breaking and then he fell and splattered his guts out. Possible, but it makes you question the epistemological framework that FORCES the reader to add something to the Bible that isn't there. Why is that even necessary?

My theory is that St. Simon the Zealot slit his throat in some Jerusalem back alley. Zealots knew how to handle traitors.

Speculations can be made for or against. Men are prone to make mistakes, even see things differently from their own perspective. This is a fact even of modern legal testimony. However, such seemingly contradictory statements have not become the eternal Word of God, for any such reasons. On the contrary--words from God are revelation, even if "here a little there a little." Even if sealed and later revealed. On purpose.

• The Matthew 27:5 passage refers to the actual account.
• The Acts 1:18 passage is a spiritual riddle with a hint of eluding prophecy--for those who have an ear to hear--being fulfilled as spoken by David. That is a given, and yet only part. The rest refers to the prophecy of Daniel, of Messiah and the end of the daily sacrifice in the middle of times.

 

[Muna]

There is no contradiction! There is better clarity, understanding when both are read together and one remembers that when necessary, God has always used evil to bring about good. In this case by allowing an evil spirit to test David, David learned valuable lessons we should all take notice of.

I didn't say there was one.

I dont get all ruffled when anyone thinks there is anyway, or whenever there might appear to be, thats not me.

I can happily fence sit with many things until I can recconcile things without getting nuts about those sorts of things unlike some folks, So relax.

 

[Muna]

You mean that Satan is not a literal being, but a personification of God's anger or God's judgement?

Yes I have considered it as I have others things, but that doesnt work in Job, God was not angry with Job, not to mention is was Satan that was moving him against Job with no cause

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

From Job's perspective also,

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

These (whose father was the devil) it says of these too

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

But its not like the LORD did not and could not use that which was meant for evil for good

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive

Or that in a situation where clearly Satan sifting another through various hardships, that one would be necessarily sinning to say that these things come by the hand of God (both good and evil) as Job says here

Job 2:10 But he (Job) said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Because who can have power over anyone unless its given to another, as Jesus told Pilate, and the cup that would not pass from Christ was not a cup full of good experiences, but evil, and just as Joseph said, they thought evil against him, but God meant the whole thing for good and the same would save much people alive by it.

Things like that, but you take it, think about it, see where it might fit in one place, and separate where it might not fit in another and just wait on it, and let it adjust your thinking on it. But on a forum like this where there is smorgasbord of mindsets is not really a good place to think out loud on the various things you might take your time to consider, and because your not laying everything out, but you are in the midst of a forum with some who hate the word of God, or athiests pretending to be honest, but who are looking for their next gotcha moment on the things they cannot recconcile but demand you do in that moment. When those sort of things do not bother me that I might not, but I have never been disappointed waiting on God for a thing.

Edit: typo

 

[Jack]

I'm a literalist! I reject most opinions and trust God of the Bible.

 

[Muna]

Speculations can be made for or against. Men are prone to make mistakes, even see things differently from their own perspective. This is a fact even of modern legal testimony. However, such seemingly contradictory statements have not become the eternal Word of God, for any such reasons. On the contrary--words from God are revelation, even if "here a little there a little." Even if sealed and later revealed. On purpose.

• The Matthew 27:5 passage refers to the actual account.
• The Acts 1:18 passage is a spiritual riddle with a hint of eluding prophecy--for those who have an ear to hear--being fulfilled as spoken by David. That is a given, and yet only part. The rest refers to the prophecy of Daniel, of Messiah and the end of the daily sacrifice in the middle of times.

Psalm 109:18 speaks of Judas bowels here

Psalm 109:18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment,
so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.

And his bowels here

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong,
he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

I wonder if these can be better recconciled

 

[Muna]

I'm a literalist! I reject most opinions and trust God of the Bible.

Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

 

[Jack]

Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

And that's your opinion, nothing more. No proof = LIE!

 

[Muna]

And that's your opinion, nothing more.

It was the Pharisees

John 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true

Its in the word of God,

although Jesus also said,

John 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man

And

I receive not testimony from man John 5:34

 

[Jack]

It was the Pharisees

John 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true

Its in the word of God,

although Jesus also said,

John 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man

And

I receive not testimony from man John 5:34

ZERO proof = a LIE!

 

[JLB]

Absolutely.
Can you also acknowledge that there is a difference in the accounts about whether she was dead or dying?

[

I don’t know I wasn’t there.

I have to go by what was written by the different disciples.

Remember it was recorded in Hebrew, then translated into Greek, then to English.


She may have been alive at the point of death when Jairus left home and died while he was on the way to get Jesus.

What we know for sure is when Jesus got to her she was dead, and because He layed His hands on her, she lived.