Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Muna]

LOL! No, this was written for YOU—and for anyone else with ears to hear—so I covered all the bases:

This is not for me,

First, we need to clear the misconception about Christians be able to be "demon-possessed."

I did not express anything about a demon possessed christian

First, can Christians be demon-possessed?
Second, what does “demon-possessed” really mean, and why do people believe such things today?

Read it carefully again—or are you just going to ignore it because you assumed it was meant for someone else? That is pure foolishness. Relying on human opinions instead of God’s Word shows a heart that refuses understanding.

I read you post it doesn't adress my most basic question, which is my foundation. Try addressing post #40 Because its the same carry over question I had from our last discussion that was never really answered. Please try to keep it breif, and use more scriptures than your own words, I cannot see the truth concerning any of it without those.

Well, it is a biblical model—straight from God’s Word, which I quoted. I’ve never even heard of their so-called “modern psychological model,” so it’s obvious you’re grasping at straws to try to discredit my testimony. You can’t refute or resist what I post, so you look elsewhere. Sad.

The last paragraph of the article stated

This interpretation is not universally accepted, as some theological perspectives maintain that demon possession is a real spiritual phenomenon distinct from psychological conditions.

In contrast there are those who believe that Jesus did cast out evil spirits or devils out of people like the seven cast out of Mary (which is the biblical model)

I’m still waiting for you—and WPM—to offer a biblical rebuttal to my posts. But instead, you chase after something that has no foundation, hoping to distract from the truth. That is nothing more than a desperate attempt to avoid facing God’s Word.

Sorry that isnt happening for me, because there is nothing there, it does not answer any of my questions at all.

 

[Muna]

Going to bed, goodnight

 

[Truth7t7]

A falling star is a common easily-recognized natural symbol that is used in a spiritual way here to describe an elect angel descending from heaven before the end of time to open the pit to release Satan and his demons from their restraint in order to restrict the great commission.

The devils being released will torment literal unsaved wicked men without God's seal, this will take place upon this literal earth, the unsaved wicked will seek death and not find it

100% Literal Torment Of Literal Men, Upon This Literal Earth

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is not for me,

First, we need to clear the misconception about Christians be able to be "demon-possessed."

I did not express anything about a demon possessed christian

You misunderstood my point. I knew you didn’t mention “demon-possessed Christians.” I included it preemptively to address a common misconception among some Christians before explaining the purpose of Christ’s work with those who were demon-possessed. It is for the audience to read. Remember that next time.

I read you post it doesn't adress my most basic question, which is my foundation. Try addressing post #40 Because its the same carry over question I had from our last discussion that was never really answered. Please try to keep it breif, and use more scriptures than your own words, I cannot see the truth concerning any of it without those.

Your #40 is terrible eisegesis. You do not make any sense!

The last paragraph of the article stated

This interpretation is not universally accepted, as some theological perspectives maintain that demon possession is a real spiritual phenomenon distinct from psychological conditions.

In contrast there are those who believe that Jesus did cast out evil spirits or devils out of people like the seven cast out of Mary (which is the biblical model)

I am not concerned with man-made consensus. My focus is on discerning what God’s Word truly teaches. Besides, you clearly do not understand what the number seven signifies spiritually in Scripture anyway. It represents completeness or totality—the full casting out of her spirit of satan, not just part of it. All must be removed so that she may be completely freed from spiritual bondage. Christ was not teaching us a lesson on how to kick seven different demonic spiritual beings out of her. (rolling eyes).

Sorry that isnt happening for me, because there is nothing there, it does not answer any of my questions at all.

Denial might as well be your middle name.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The devils being released will torment literal unsaved wicked men without God's seal, this will take place upon this literal earth, the unsaved wicked will seek death and not find it

100% Literal Torment Of Literal Men Upon This Literal Earth

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

You guys...

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 4, Satan, devil, same creature, a person, a fallen angel. Someone who has a third of all the angels in league with him, the prince of the power of the air, means more than air pollution.

Matthew 4

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Satan, the ‘Prince of the Air’ — What Does That Mean?

Why does Paul call Satan “the prince of the power of the air”? Pastor John explores the extent of Satan’s authority and Christ’s decisive victory.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[rwb]

The truth!

Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not an influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

Job 1:6-7: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

We can see how the demonic host operates as a collective whole.

The difference between an angel of God and the one who imitates as an angel of light is that the angel of God is to serve God for good, and the masquerader serves Satan for evil. Using 2Cor 11:14 to prove Satan is a fallen angel of God does not support what is alleged. All that it proves is that the tactics of Satan using the hearts and minds of man has not changed. He was a liar from the beginning, and he will continue to be a liar until he is destroyed in the eternal flames. Pretending to be the angel of light in NO WAY means Satan was once an angel of God until he rebelled against God.

The author doesn't even know the difference between angels and demons. If he did, he would not continue to argue that Satan is a fallen angel. Scripture NEVER depicts Satan and his demonic hosts as angels of God! If Satan was an angel of God the Scripture would not describe the 'serpent' (symbolizing Satan) in the garden of Eden as being more cunning and crafty than any other created thing. Nor would Scripture, speaking of Satan, say to those in unbelief, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." Jo 8:44

In saying "the Devil and his angels" can only be reconciled with all Scripture when we understand angels should be translated 'messengers" not the spirits of God called angels. By saying the devil and his messengers we understand the demons/devils and human beings, whoever is of the same evil nature as Satan, because they are the ones the everlasting fire is prepared for. This is clearly understood in Rev 20 where we read about who shall be cast into the eternal flames. The LOF is not limited to spirit beings but also to whosoever is NOT found written in the book of life, ALL of the DEAD whether they be spirit or human.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Michael and His messengers, the spirit angelic hosts, fight against the dragon and his messengers' demons, who are also unseen spirit beings.

Revelation 12:7 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels (messengers) fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels (messengers) ,and His angelic hosts use to fight against

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him.

Before the advent of Christ Satan and his demonic spirits were able to accuse men of God like Job day and night. This symbolic spiritual depiction of a war taking place in heaven between the forces of good and evil is proving how the advent of Christ coming to earth a man has conquered these demonic foes of Christ. Before Christ' coming Satan held people in bondage to sin and death. That's why he was given permission to test God's servant, Job. Satan was only allowed to torment Job, but he could not take Job's life. Because through Christ salvation has come, and whoever believes the gospel of the Kingdom of God is no longer afraid of bondage to sin and death. The bondage is broken since Christ; the Lord and Saviour has come to mankind. He shall build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against Him!

This is why when Satan and his minions are cast out of heaven and bound to the earth heaven rejoices but the inhabitants of the earth have woe because the devil has come down to earth having great wrath. Satan would not be bound until Christ gives His life an atonement for sin, and defeats death by resurrecting from the dead.

Reading Job as though the sons of God present themselves to God in heaven while Satan came also, is not rightly understanding. Sons of God ALWAYS speaks of human sons, not angels. In the days of Old man of faith presented themselves before God at specific times and places. When two are three are gathered together in the name of the LORD, Satan will be there also, among the faithful.

Matthew 18:20 (KJV) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 10:16 (KJV) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Luke 10:3 (KJV) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Acts 20:29-30 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

"We can see how the demonic host operates as a collective whole."

It appears the author has rightly understood at least one thing!

 

[rwb]

While Scripture speaks of wicked leaders and wicked kingdoms, they are ultimately representative of Satan and the kingdom of darkness. For example, "the king of Babylon" in Isaiah 14:3-11 and the “King of Tyre” in Ezekiel 28 are definite allusions to Satan.

The parable/lamentations are speaking of those to whom the prophet was to address. They are NOT allusions to Satan, rather they speak truth of how the hearts and minds of man have become evil continually, because like the serpent in the garden tested A&E and they succumbed to the same temptation, so too these kings, representing humanity had allowed themselves to be led astray believing they could be God! Man wasn't created evil, they were in the loins of Adam created "very good". But, like Adam they allowed themselves to be deceived by evil and they, not Satan, fell through sin and brought death unto all mankind.

 

[rwb]

The Bible distinguishes between angels and men. They are different. They are distinct. Angels are heavenly beings that are sent on assignment from God to serve His purposes, and protect His servants. They operate in the invisible realm.

It appears we agree in something!

In heaven, God's elect are distinguished from the angels:

Matthew 22:29-32 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Christ says those who are of the resurrection, those who have in life entered spiritually into the Kingdom of God in heaven "are as the angels of God in heaven." IOW when we have part in the "first resurrection" that is to have part in Christ's resurrection life, in heaven, where we go as the general assembly and Church of the first born, we "are as the angels of God IN HEAVEN". Being in heaven being as are the angels, a spiritual body, we do not marry because we are espoused to Christ.

Jesus taught:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Are humans coming to gather us at the second coming?

He shall send His messengers, which shall be the heavenly hosts. Those who are physically upon the earth, but spiritually in the Kingdom of God in heaven. At His coming again we, being the spiritual body of Christ in heaven as living souls God will bring with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In heaven man who has entered there according to grace through faith when they were born again are called "the SPIRITS of just men made perfect."

Hebrews 12:23 (KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:49 (KJV) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[rwb]

The influence of all error comes from the enemy - a real Satan, who they deny exists.

With this statement you are not being truthful, but dishonest if you are directing this to me: "a real Satan, who they deny exists."

 

[rwb]

He (TribulationSigns) is not a Christadelphian, but maybe he has been influenced by the Christadelphian teaching about this? I'm not sure. In fairness to rwb, who was also quoted in the OP, he does believe that Satan is an actual, personal spirit being and that demons are real spirit beings, but he doesn't believe that they were once God's angels who rebelled and became fallen angels.

Of course, I don't believe Satan was once an angel of God until he rebelled against God! Why would I believe something that forces contradiction and confusion into the Word of God?

 

[Scott Downey]

I have wondered if the angels who sinned, are mostly locked up as it says here, we just do not know their numbers.

2 Peter 2

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

And I think demons are not 'fallen angels', but when the angels took wives and the wives bore children to them, they became the demons.

Or was it simply the ones who caused the Nephilim to be born.
Because we know Satan sinned, and God did not lock him away in chains to be kept there till judgment DAY, as Satan is free t roam the world and sway men.

Jude

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of [e]dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in [f]contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

 

[WPM]

The parable/lamentations are speaking of those to whom the prophet was to address. They are NOT allusions to Satan, rather they speak truth of how the hearts and minds of man have become evil continually, because like the serpent in the garden tested A&E and they succumbed to the same temptation, so too these kings, representing humanity had allowed themselves to be led astray believing they could be God! Man wasn't created evil, they were in the loins of Adam created "very good". But, like Adam they allowed themselves to be deceived by evil and they, not Satan, fell through sin and brought death unto all mankind.

So, what is the origin of Satan and his demons? When and how did they originate? Where did they come from? Who are they?

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Peter 2:4 — The Core Passage
“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment…” — 2 Peter 2:4

The word translated as “hell” here is Tartarus (Greek: ταρταρόω), and this is the only time it appears in the New Testament.

Peter uses it to describe the temporary imprisonment of angels who sinned—likely referring to the rebellious angels mentioned in Genesis 6 or those who joined Satan’s rebellion

 

[WPM]

I have wondered if the angels who sinned, are mostly locked up as it says here, we just do not know their numbers.

2 Peter 2

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

And I think demons are not 'fallen angels', but when the angels took wives and the wives bore children to them, they became the demons.

Or was it simply the ones who caused the Nephilim to be born.
Because we know Satan sinned, and God did not lock him away in chains to be kept there till judgment DAY, as Satan is free t roam the world and sway men.

Jude

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of [e]dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in [f]contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Angels are spirits. Demons are evil fallen angels. I showed this in the Op. How can spirits procreate? That is ridiculous. Scripture doesn't teach that.

 

[WPM]

2 Peter 2:4 — The Core Passage
“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment…” — 2 Peter 2:4

The word translated as “hell” here is Tartarus (Greek: ταρταρόω), and this is the only time it appears in the New Testament.

Peter uses it to describe the temporary imprisonment of angels who sinned—likely referring to the rebellious angels mentioned in Genesis 6 or those who joined Satan’s rebellion

They are a collective whole. They are spiritually curtailed, bound and imprisoned since the First Advent. There is to teaching this occurred before creation or during the old covenant. It is only taught in the NT.

 

[WPM]

With this statement you are not being truthful, but dishonest if you are directing this to me: "a real Satan, who they deny exists."

You deny he is angelic, a being or a personality.

 

[Scott Downey]

How can spirits procreate? That is ridiculous. Scripture doesn't teach that.

They can if they take on human form, that is the idea.

Genesis 6
Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were [b]giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

There are 2 views on this Genesis 6 verse and to me it fits well what is mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude what happened to the fallen ones (fallen angels)

“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.”

This passage introduces the Nephilim in the context of a strange union between “sons of God” and “daughters of men.”

Who Were the Nephilim?
The word Nephilim likely comes from the Hebrew root npl, meaning “to fall”—hence, “fallen ones.”

They are described as mighty men, heroes of old, and possibly giants (as in Numbers 13:33).

Interpretations vary:

Fallen angels’ offspring: Many early Jewish and Christian sources (like the Book of Enoch and Church Fathers) believed the “sons of God” were angels who fathered hybrid offspring with human women.

Human lineage: Others, like Augustine, argued the “sons of God” were the righteous descendants of Seth, and the Nephilim were simply powerful humans.

 

[Scott Downey]

The clue is in what Jude writes, in v7, grammatically makes the comparison with these sinning angels and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, what they did, referring to sexual immorality.

6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.