70th Week and Day of the Lord are separate events.
- Thread starter SteveSmid
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
First of all, watch your language. This is a Christian forum. Second of all, I do not believe that Israel (the nation of Israel) was replaced by the Church. They are separate entities. Replacement Theology is a false label that dispensationalists try to put on people like me and it's not appreciated.
So, you're talking about dual fulfillments of prophecies then? I don't buy into that idea.
Issac Newton said prophesy serves the same purpose as miracles--they strengthen our faith when realized.
For so many of you people, this is enough, and pondering a narrative out of the specifics is facetious, even heretical. Others claim to have deep spiritual understanding, and we all must accept their position. And then there's the people who get messages directly from God--better not argue with them.
The Bible is full of specifics about the last days. Our "betters" symbolize them away one by one or find an event in the past that cannot explain the full story, like A.D. 70.
Sure, there's symbolism. A burning (judgement) mountain (nation) fell into the sea (chaos). Ergo, God judged a nation by sending it into chaos. Syria maybe? But this refers to one major nation during the last days, not all nations. We already know this will happen to all.
Understanding the end times narrative is preparation. We are ordered to watch, and as events unfold, recognize them. We are to comfort and be comforted. The unsaved will be desperate for answers. We will have them, and we will be ready to explain the Gospel.
My Hindu friend shocked me the other day by saying I was right--all nations were turning on Israel. I was able to explain why and get him closer to the Truth.
Those who intellectualize away prophesy are bores. Maybe their faith is too weak to believe God will resolve things in the narrative fashion. Or, antisemitism may be a factor. Israel lost its place.
The Bible is not 1/4 poetic eschatology. Why would God mess with so many, wasting our time? Symbolism serves no purpose, and any theology could have been communicated more efficiently.
I really wanted to discuss how the 70th Week and the Day of the Lord were separate events, but I mostly got the old crap lectures. If you're not a futurist, find another thread. I've heard the b>!\$#!+ already.
For so many of you people, this is enough, and pondering a narrative out of the specifics is facetious, even heretical. Others claim to have deep spiritual understanding, and we all must accept their position. And then there's the people who get messages directly from God--better not argue with them.
The Bible is full of specifics about the last days. Our "betters" symbolize them away one by one or find an event in the past that cannot explain the full story, like A.D. 70.
Sure, there's symbolism. A burning (judgement) mountain (nation) fell into the sea (chaos). Ergo, God judged a nation by sending it into chaos. Syria maybe? But this refers to one major nation during the last days, not all nations. We already know this will happen to all.
Understanding the end times narrative is preparation. We are ordered to watch, and as events unfold, recognize them. We are to comfort and be comforted. The unsaved will be desperate for answers. We will have them, and we will be ready to explain the Gospel.
My Hindu friend shocked me the other day by saying I was right--all nations were turning on Israel. I was able to explain why and get him closer to the Truth.
Those who intellectualize away prophesy are bores. Maybe their faith is too weak to believe God will resolve things in the narrative fashion. Or, antisemitism may be a factor. Israel lost its place.
The Bible is not 1/4 poetic eschatology. Why would God mess with so many, wasting our time? Symbolism serves no purpose, and any theology could have been communicated more efficiently.
I really wanted to discuss how the 70th Week and the Day of the Lord were separate events, but I mostly got the old crap lectures. If you're not a futurist, find another thread. I've heard the b>!\$#!+ already.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Say what now? Scripture clearly refers to 2 different advents of Christ. There are no assumptions about that. But, it nowhere refers to two different sets of 70 weeks.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but you make very little sense. You say "symbolism serves no purpose" even though prophetic books like Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and Revelation undeniably contain a good amount of symbolism? Do you think those books serve no purpose just because they contain a lot of symbolism?
Hi Cassandra,
Daniel 9 does not mention the ministry time length of the messiah.
The two factors given are the messiah's arrival and his being cutoff. Daniel 9:25-26.
Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the King of Israel messiah by his followers in John 12:12-15. Four days later, Jesus was cutoff, crucified.
So, 69 weeks to the messiah's arrival and being cutoff. The 70th week is still unfulfilled.
Daniel 9:26 is about the destruction of the temple and the city that took place in the 70AD event.
The time was to be determined to restore and rebuild which would be the 3rd time.
1st decree 536“Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath charged me to build Him a house at Jerusalem.” Ezra 1 : 2 only to rebuild temple
2nd decree Darius 529 “Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices… and let the governor of the Jews build this house of God.” — Ezra 6 : 3–7 confirmed Cyrus, but still the Temple.
3rd Decree Artaxerxes457 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest… I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel… may go up to Jerusalem.” — Ezra 7 : 12–13 Government was established as well-permission to appoint judges etc. This is the rebuild and restore part of the decrees.
70 weeks are determined upon thy people went from the 3rd decree in 457 BC to the stoning of Stephen in 34AD. A few days after Stephen was stoned, Paul was converted and the gospel was given to the Gentiles.
Davy
Well-Known Member
FIRST COMING:
Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
SECOND COMING:
Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV
Would you like to try again??
I don't know who you are listening to, but it's obvious they haven't read a whole lot of their Bible. I mean just how... does a reader of The Bible totally MISS the time gap between Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross, His death and resurrection and appearing to His disciples for 40 days after that, and then His Apostles seeing Him ascend to Heaven on a cloud at the Mount of Olives, and the Revelation 19 Scripture about His 2nd coming still... to this day... has yet to happen? How does one become that deceived away from the simple Bible Scripture?
Davy
Well-Known Member
The subject of the discussion is the false idea that Jesus fulfilled the final 70th week DURING His Ministry (1st coming). He did not, and all the early Church fathers agree He did not. No sense then to try... and bring in irrelevant points that have no bearing.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That is a mark of a false prophet, because Jesus said no man knows the day or hour of His future coming.
Dear SteveSmid,
The presentation you made on Daniel's 70th Week prophecy and the Day of the Lord is a carnal understanding of Christ's spiritual teachings. None of what you presented is true.
Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy is a prophecy that presents certain details of the salvation of the Elect/OT faithful. When a person is converted/saved, the 70 Weeks prophecy is fulfilled for that particular Elect person.
Here is a summarized teaching:
- Christ was given 70 weeks of years to accomplish the salvation of the Elect.
- The 70th week began when Christ was baptized by John. This started a literal time countdown for Christ to complete His work within the Elect.
- In the midst of the final week, Christ was cutoff at the cross. This completed Christ's work that He was to perform under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is a physical covenant and the work that Christ performed was physical work.
- After Christ was cutoff, 3 1/2 years of the 70th week remained for Christ to complete the goals given in Dan 9:24. Christ is now completing the last 3 1/2 years under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is spiritual and the work that Christ performs under it is spiritual work that He does within each of His Elect. The literal time countdown changed because of the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The last 3 1/2 years of the prophecy is no longer literal time. You must rightly divided Daniel's prophecy by the Old and New Covenants. One is physical and one is spiritual.
- Christ will commence the last 3 1/2 years when He gives one of His Elect a small measure of the Holy Spirit. This is the Early Rain. When a person has this small measure of the Holy Spirit, they will make a confession of faith and will become a babe in Christ. However, a babe is still unconverted and still not saved.
- To convert the Elect babe, Christ will return to them and give them the baptism of the Spirit. This is the Latter Rain. Christ will then appear to the person and begin His judgment (Day of the Lord) within them. The purpose of the judgment is to remove the "chaff" (all things that makes the person spiritually weak and carnally minded) from within them to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Revelation 19:11-21 shows this judgment as does Mat 24:37-41.
- After the Elect person has been converted, Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy will be completed within that person.
- After the last Elect person is converted in this age, Daniel's prophecy will be fulfilled.
Whenever you see a scripture that contains the phrases "1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years or times, time and half a time" it is teaching on certain spiritual events that will happen to each Elect person during the time that they spend in between the Early and Latter Rains.
One last point: The Two Witnesses is a more detailed prophecy on the spiritual steps that Christ will cause His Elect to travel to their moment of conversion. The "Two Witnesses" mentioned in the prophecy represent all the Elect. They do not represent two literal persons who will appear at some time in the future. This is a carnal understanding of a spiritual prophecy.
Joe
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I like this one, "the Bible turned into a poem for the Second. They're trying to turn the bible into a poem for the Second Coming.
Good one. "The Bible is not 1/4 poetic eschatology. I think I called it something like that not too long ago when I was talking to a guy about the Trumpets and the Vials. After I saw what I'm sure was the 5 months of Revelation 9, the 5th Trumpet, and the 1st Bowl, I said they appear to be symbolic descriptions of very real events. Which were sort of poetic descriptions of the close of probation. First with the Trumpets dealing with a "third" of people, then with the Bowls finalizing the end of salvation for all. First in the Trumpets, many people die from the bitter water, then in the Vials, all of the lost people are given "blood' to drink, the blood of a dead man. They are now shut off from the living water that flows out from Christ.
Like when Jesus was writing in the sand, these parts of Revelation seem communicating something to us which is nearly unspeakable. After the 5th Trumpet, which is the same timing as the 1st Bowl, the living were all sealed with the Seal of God, or they had taken the Mark of the Beast. All of that had to be completed prior to Jesus' appearing. For when He appears, we will be like Him. It's basically the judgement of the living.
After the 5th Trumpet, they do not repent:
"The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Their death was not symbolic, but the tares continue grow with the wheat. It's just that, beyond this point, the "tares" are permanently marked for their destruction. Like that phrase dead man walking. We are surrounded by those who are perishing. Two in the field, one will be taken, one will be left. It's just that we can't see stacks of dead bodies piling up, before Jesus comes as a thief.Not exactly. Daniel used that word "abomination" a couple three times, but in Matthew 24, Jesus was speaking of a specific end time Abomination which would be seen standing where it ought not to be. The 1290 day prophetic time period is the litmus test which needs to pass the date to date calculator.
To seal both the vision, and the prophet. This is one of the multiple places in Scripture which can be shown to indicate two separate stand alone sets of 70 weeks. God had three prophets in operation at the same time. Three prophets, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Daniel. Three prophets, but they were being given two different prophetic narratives. Depending on if the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the first set of 70 weeks, would determine which "prophet", and which "vision", would be sealed. Because the 1st century Hebrews missed the time of their Visitation, Jesus could not gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks. So the second set of 70 weeks were activated. This is the reason why the 69 weeks were split up as two various intervals, 7, and 62 weeks until Messiah the Prince. Newton was the first to notice it in the 1700's.
There's other linguistic evidence. Other people noticed it. We talked and argued it like everything else here. Here's one from Moshe Cohen in Israel. I hesitate to post him because, like Newton, and Dr. Christian, I doubt they are correct on everything. But who is? Like you were saying, we all can be right, or each have a piece of the puzzle on something. Moshe thinks one of the "Seventy" from Daniel is the 70 year Babylonian Exile. We know he's off on that. But he is fun:
And C.J. Lovik noticed it. Better late than never. He finally has come across the translation issue of the seventy, seventy, and has addressed his opinion on it. Like Moshe Cohen, Lovik also now thinks our English translations are wrong. He thinks that we should times 70X70 and get 4900 years from the start of the Old Israel nation in Egypt to the the year 3053. Lol. I'm sorry C.J. if you are reading this. Nowhere does the Script tell or insinuate to us that we should times the two sets of 70 weeks together. But wow can he make a high quality video.
I saw a thread on Worthy last year about this. I wish I could say it was fun. I had a disagreement with a guy I eventually recognized as an SDA pastor. A bit of a mean guy. I found him latter on a SDA forum talking to another SDA pastor. They call us the "laity". I'm the laity, Lol. It was interesting anyway. He kept telling me there's no such thing as "dual" prophecy. It's not really a classic example of a dual prophecy. Daniel 9 in the only place that sets out the detailed timing of the Coming of Christ. Since there's two Visitations of the Son of Man, there had to be a provision for two separate sets of 70weeks embedded within that enigmatic text.. Like newton said in his commentary:
"The former part of the Prophecy related to the first coming of Christ, being dated to his coming as a Prophet; this being dated to his coming to be Prince or King, seems to relate to his second coming. There, the Prophet was consummate, and the most holy anointed: here, he that was anointed comes to be Prince and to reign. For Daniel's Prophecies reach to the end of the world; and there is scarce a Prophecy in the Old Testament concerning Christ, which doth not in something or other relate to his second coming. If divers of the antients, as [g] Irenaeus, [h] Julius Africanus, Hippolytus the martyr, and Apollinaris Bishop of Laodicea, applied the half week to the times of Antichrist; why may not we, by the same liberty of interpretation, apply the seven weeks to the time when Antichrist shall be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming?
And:
"Thus have we in this short Prophecy, a prediction of all the main periods relating to the coming of the Messiah; the time of his birth, that of his death, that of the rejection of the Jews, duration of the Jewish war whereby he caused the city and sanctuary to be destroyed, and the time of his second coming: and so the interpretation here given is more full and complete and adequate to the design, than if we should restrain it to his first coming only, as Interpreters usually do. We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel's meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.
A couple of the members there at Worthy read Hebrew and were educating me on the "vowel points" which translate the "seventy", and the "weeks". Those vowel points were added hundreds of years after Daniel wrote his original text.
Considering Suleiman’s restoration of Jerusalem in 1492; does Daniel’s Seventy weeks (Dan.9.24-27); teach a double 70 week prophecy
I've learned about a second decree of [Sultan Suleiman](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleiman_the_Magnificent) to rebuild Jerusalem, which was engraved in stone in 1537-1542 AD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_City_of_Jerusalem I found this information in the book “Witnessing the end” by Dr....
www.worthychristianforums.com
The main evidence for two separate sets of 70 weeks is that the things Newton suggested we be looking for, appear to be here now. I am amazed his writings were prior to 1948, and 1969. The modern day decrees are manifold and manifest now. They are identified by their placement at 7 and 62 weeks. It is what it is sort of thing.
And it looks like you're doing a good job with the thread here Steve. Maintaining your composure, and patience with all the Amils, and the rabid Preterist or whatever they are.
Last edited:
Davy
Well-Known Member
THAT IS A FALSE AFFIRMATION, an empty hope that the false doctrine you follow is correct, when all you have to do is simply follow the simplicity of the Daniel 9 Scripture.Debunked.
They were immeasurably smarter than you.
Yes, I follow the simplicity of Daniel's determined 70 weeks.
You follow the lunacy of your decapitated 70th week.
See the difference?
Last edited:
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yes, I follow the simplicity of Daniel's determined 70 weeks.
You follow the lunacy of your decapitated 70th week.
See the difference?
You reply with No substance, the difference.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Explain how Daniel's determined 70 weeks are No substance.
With Scripture.
I already explained the Daniel 9:26 verse showing that Messiah would be "cut off" after the 69th... week, NOT after the 70th week. Not my problem if you don't know how to count.
Similar threads
