Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Scott Downey]

Read the Op. The unseen realm of the kingdom of God is a collective whole. 1Ti 5:21 tells us: "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels." This is one side of the invisible realm. These are God's angels - the faithful ones.

The demonic realm is also a collective whole - the "evil angels" (Psa 78:49). These are the unfaithful angels. When Christ or the NT writers describe Satan and his invisible host they are described in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

There are no subgroups within the demonic realm - like “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation” (Jud 1:6) / “the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4) on one side and then "devils," "unclean (impure or fowl) spirits" and "evil spirits" on the other side. These are all the same wicked spirits.

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.”

I limit the ones locked up in Tartarus to the ones who committed sexual immorality and birthed the giants, who when they died their spirits became the demons and are also called evil spirits. It fits logically and makes sense to me. Not that all fallen angels are locked up in hell, because Satan is also a fallen angel and he is free to roam the earth and cause mischief. I look at this punishment as selective. I am believing what the early church believed and what some people also do believe today.

 

[Muna]

Okay SI and WPM, listen up...Read the verses carefully:

Heb 13:1-3

• Let brotherly love continue.
• Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
• Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

Christians are encouraged to remember their first love and show brotherly love in being hospitable to foreigners, strangers, and pilgrims (something which the church has forgotten) because they very well could be messengers of God. We warned that they, too, were in spiritual bondage like we were. God is NOT talking about supernatural angels out living among us clandestinely, but people who we may not know are truly messengers of God. This has nothing to do with being hospitable to supernatural beings from heaven who might drop in on us to visit like you think! For example, the word is messengers, not angels.

1st Samuel 29:9

• "And Achish answered and said to David, I know that thou art good in my sight, as an angel of God: notwithstanding the princes of the Philistines have said, He shall not go up with us to the battle."

Well, is David literally an angel of God? Hello?! Or was he a messenger of God? Humm!

@rwb

And looking at Stephen

Acts 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him,
saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

And Paul

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected;
but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Means what? That men cannot be referred to as the same thing?

Here is a man Daniel saw in a vision that was caused to fly swiftly here

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Isn't this the same guy?

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Anyone know how many years between Daniel and Mary here?

 

[rwb]

The angels who sinned are locked up in Tartarus, which is the lowest part of hell.
Not humans, angels.
Humans also go to hell.
Hell is not monolithic, it has levels of punishments.
Jesus talked of being beaten with few versus many stripes.
But the punishments are not controlled by demons, that seems wrong to me.
There are no evil spirits or demons in hell yet.

Where in Scripture does it say that the angels of God shall be locked up in the lowest part of hell? What did they do to be cast there? In Gen 6 God flooded the whole earth because God saw that wickedness of man, not angels was great on the earth. If it was angels that sinned why does God wipe out every living breathing creature upon the earth, but leave the so-called fallen angels?

It was men not angels but human messengers of God, not angels who are locked up in the lowest abyss where they wait for Judgment Day. The men living in the days of Noah, who were to be light bearers to the whole earth, but instead of bringing light they joined with the world and did whatever felt right in their own eyes.

Matthew 8:28-30
New King James Version
Two Demon-Possessed Men Healed
28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the [a]Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Scripture talks of God's wrath burning all the way to the lowest hell

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

There is nothing here I disagree with Scott. I agree the anger of God burns all teh way to the lowest hell because that is where those who were called to be bearers of God's light to the world, became of the world and only one man alive was called righteous before God.

 

[WPM]

Luke 8​

A Demon-Possessed Man Healed​

26 Then they sailed to the country of the [k]Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons [l]for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

30 Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?”

And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

Now who knows what the abyss is?
But they fear that, and it seems to me they know some had been sent there.
Whatever the abyss is they are removed beyond the world and can no longer have a presence in this world.
To me it seems like they would be locked in Tartarus to await the Day of judgement as were the fallen angels who sinned.

I know some of you reject the idea of the Nephilim becoming the evil spirits, but it logically fits scripture of the giants, the demons, the angels who sinned with women being locked up for sexual immorality. And it is what the early church believed.

Not so. The cross and the first resurrection had to happen first. That was what finally stripped Satan of his power.

Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially His death, burial and resurrection, as the time when the devil was spiritually defeated. I John 3:8 declares, “For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favored nation of natural Israel. Today, wherever you go in this world, you counter followers of the God of Israel.

Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 tells us: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross.

• He is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of the Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

Christ now possesses "All power ... in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18). He now possesses "the keys (or the authority) of hell, and of death" (Revelation 1:18)

• Where Satan ruled through deceit, Jesus came and spoke the truth.
• Where darkness prevailed, Christ shone a light.
• Where men were bound, Jesus set them free.
• Where death condemned man, Jesus conquered the grave.

Jesus confidently said in John 16:11, “the prince of this world is judged.”

Ephesians 4:8 says, “When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.”

David Wilkerson said: “Jesus plundered the devil at Calvary, stripping him of all power and authority. When Christ rose victorious from the grave, he led an innumerable host of redeemed captives out of Satan's grasp. And that blood-bought procession is still marching on.”

 

[WPM]

I limit the ones locked up in Tartarus to the ones who committed sexual immorality and birthed the giants, who when they died their spirits became the demons and are also called evil spirits. It fits logically and makes sense to me. Not that all fallen angels are locked up in hell, because Satan is also a fallen angel and he is free to roam the earth and cause mischief. I look at this punishment as selective. I am believing what the early church believed and what some people also do believe today.

I know you do, but you are wrong. Scripture doesn't say that. You have taken that from apostate Judaism. You never quoted an ECF directly yet that i can see.

 

[rwb]

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

It seems some here do not believe the above has really happened.
It seems some here believe demons and evil spirits are fallen angels.

God does not spare the human messengers who lived in the days of Noah, who sinned, angels of God do not sin, they do God's bidding.

These human messengers of God are still in the lowest abyss. They went there after death took them in the waters of the flood that covered the earth.

And demons/devils/Satan have NEVER been fallen angels! They are from the beginning servants of evil.

 

[rwb]

Do you even realize what you’re saying? Christadelphianism is a false doctrine, plain and simple. They deny the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ, claiming He only began to exist when conceived in Mary. They strip the Holy Spirit of His personhood, reducing Him to a mere “force” or “influence.” They reject the Trinity, and they even claim baptism by immersion is required for salvation.

Now tell me, where have I ever taught any of that nonsense? You slap the label “Christadelphian” on someone just because you can’t dismantle their argument with Scripture? That’s not discernment—that’s lazy ignorance. Maybe do your homework before throwing around accusations that only expose your lack of understanding. Or at least understand what the group actually believes before throwing around names you clearly don’t comprehend.

They put labels on people trying to make others believe you are a heretic and your doctrine coming from evil. If they can get others to see you as heretic that fills them with joy because they cannot abide by anyone having greater clarity of spiritual discernment, then themselves.

 

[WPM]

God does not spare the human messengers who lived in the days of Noah, who sinned, angels of God do not sin, they do God's bidding.

These human messengers of God are still in the lowest abyss. They went there after death took them in the waters of the flood that covered the earth.

And demons/devils/Satan have NEVER been fallen angels! They are from the beginning servants of evil.

So:

1. God created Satan and devils evil at the beginning?
2. He created servants of evil at the beginning?

 

[rwb]

Not so. The cross and the first resurrection had to happen first. That was what finally stripped Satan of his power.

Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially His death, burial and resurrection, as the time when the devil was spiritually defeated. I John 3:8 declares, “For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favored nation of natural Israel. Today, wherever you go in this world, you counter followers of the God of Israel.

Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 tells us: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross.

• He is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of the Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

Christ now possesses "All power ... in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18). He now possesses "the keys (or the authority) of hell, and of death" (Revelation 1:18)

• Where Satan ruled through deceit, Jesus came and spoke the truth.
• Where darkness prevailed, Christ shone a light.
• Where men were bound, Jesus set them free.
• Where death condemned man, Jesus conquered the grave.

Jesus confidently said in John 16:11, “the prince of this world is judged.”

Ephesians 4:8 says, “When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.”

David Wilkerson said: “Jesus plundered the devil at Calvary, stripping him of all power and authority. When Christ rose victorious from the grave, he led an innumerable host of redeemed captives out of Satan's grasp. And that blood-bought procession is still marching on.”

All true, but nowhere in Scripture can you prove what you allege, that Satan was an angel of God until he rebelled against God and became Satan.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is what you espouse. You agreed with their doctrine in an earlier in post #26. You exposed the source of your teaching.

"Or Christadelphianism. Christadelphians do not believe in a supernatural, personal devil, but rather view the "devil" and "Satan" as personifications of sin, evil human nature, and temptation. They interpret these terms to represent the sinful inclinations within individuals, or sometimes a group of people or a political power acting as an opponent. According to this belief, sin originates from within a person's own desires, and the "devil" is not an external being with magical powers, but a metaphorical representation of the struggle against God's will."​

So what exactly is your point? Because a few isolated statements happen to sound similar, you immediately conclude I’m a Christadelphian? That’s a remarkably shallow line of reasoning. One would expect better discernment from someone claiming to handle Scripture alone.

It’s almost amusing, really. You and SI openly affirm the other day that the interpretation of Preterism is correct in regard to parts of the Olivet Discourse—yet you bristle at being called Preterists yourselves. How convenient. So, when you borrow from a system, it’s “balanced interpretation,” but when others do, it’s “false doctrine”?

Hypocritical much? Thanks for a good

I am done with this thread. I am good and satisfied with my testimony here so far for all to read. Moving on!

@rwb

 

[Scott Downey]

Where in Scripture does it say that the angels of God shall be locked up in the lowest part of hell? What did they do to be cast there? In Gen 6 God flooded the whole earth because God saw that wickedness of man, not angels was great on the earth. If it was angels that sinned why does God wipe out every living breathing creature upon the earth, but leave the so-called fallen angels?

It was men not angels but human messengers of God, not angels who are locked up in the lowest abyss where they wait for Judgment Day. The men living in the days of Noah, who were to be light bearers to the whole earth, but instead of bringing light they joined with the world and did whatever felt right in their own eyes.



There is nothing here I disagree with Scott. I agree the anger of God burns all teh way to the lowest hell because that is where those who were called to be bearers of God's light to the world, became of the world and only one man alive was called righteous before God.

Problem I have is difficult subjects are automatically turned into allegory, symbolic, and figurative language.

Such as the origins of the Nephilim, giants, demons, evil spirits garden of Eden, and the fallen angels who sinned.

Angels eating food and entertaining people who considered them as flesh and blood as themselves.

I know you do, but you are wrong. Scripture doesn't say that. You have taken that from apostate Judaism. You never quoted an ECF directly yet that i can see.

A lot of ECF also had disagreeable doctrines from with what I believe.
I don't see how what they believed makes it real or not.

What particular ECF do you respect for their opinions on doctrine ?

 

[rwb]

So:

1. God created Satan and devils evil at the beginning?
2. He created servants of evil at the beginning?

That's the questions I've been trying to get you to biblically prove. Because you allege that Satan was created an angel of God who rebelled and became Satan.

 

[WPM]

"Or Christadelphianism. Christadelphians do not believe in a supernatural, personal devil, but rather view the "devil" and "Satan" as personifications of sin, evil human nature, and temptation. They interpret these terms to represent the sinful inclinations within individuals, or sometimes a group of people or a political power acting as an opponent. According to this belief, sin originates from within a person's own desires, and the "devil" is not an external being with magical powers, but a metaphorical representation of the struggle against God's will."​

So what exactly is your point? Because a few isolated statements happen to sound similar, you immediately conclude I’m a Christadelphian? That’s a remarkably shallow line of reasoning. One would expect better discernment from someone claiming to handle Scripture alone.

It’s almost amusing, really. You and SI openly affirm the other day that the interpretation of Preterism is correct in regard to parts of the Olivet Discourse—yet you bristle at being called Preterists yourselves. How convenient. So, when you borrow from a system, it’s “balanced interpretation,” but when others do, it’s “false doctrine”?

Hypocritical much? Thanks for a good

I am done with this thread. I am good and satisfied with my testimony here so far for all to read. Moving on!

What are you talking about? I am partial Preterist, partial futurist and partial historicist when it comes to eschatology. They all have elements of truth. Your Christadelphianism has none.

 

[rwb]

Sadly, you have both lost a lot of credibility on this forum. How do we take your posts serious anymore? This is 101 Christianity.

Yes, sadly you needed a reminder because you are displaying incredible hostility toward CHRISTIANS!

 

[WPM]

That's the questions I've been trying to get you to biblically prove. Because you allege that Satan was created an angel of God who rebelled and became Satan.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

You are alleging that he created much that was "very bad." Christadelphianism contradicts Scripture at every turn.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

You are alleging that he created much that was "very bad." Christadelphianism contradicts Scripture at every turn.

I see that you STILL have not answer my question:

When did God create Satan, exactly. Show me Scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

Do any of you consider Justin Martyr a respected ECF?

Justin Martyr on Genesis 6: Fallen Angels and the Pagan Gods - Chasing the Giants

Justin Martyr linked Genesis 6 and pagan gods to fallen angels. Discover how this 2nd-century apologist used angel theology to defend the Christian faith.

chasingthegiants.com

In The Second Apology, Justin directly addresses the pagan myths of his day. He argues that the stories of gods mating with mortals—so common in Greco-Roman lore—were not mere fantasy. Instead, they were distorted memories of a true and ancient event recorded in Genesis 6.

Here’s what Justin wrote:

“God… committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begot children who are those that are called demons… and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Justin Martyr: Everything About the Christian Apologist

Explore the life, writings, and influence of Justin Martyr, a key figure in early Christian apologetics and philosophy, whose legacy shaped theological discourse and Christian thought in the 2nd century.

www.bartehrman.com

 

[WPM]

Yes, sadly you needed a reminder because you are displaying incredible hostility toward CHRISTIANS!

Please do not go there. You started it by trying to belittle Eric.

If you don't know from the Word of God, I doubt you would learn from me.

We can lead to water, but have no power to make anyone drink!

I stated this in a way that even a small child could understand.

 

[WPM]

I see that you STILL have not answer my question:

When did God create Satan, exactly. Show me Scripture.

See the Op.

 

[TribulationSigns]

See the Op.

I did. I do not see your answer on WHEN did God create Satan and the "angels", exactly? I asked for verses, not OP because it does not show a verse that answer the question.

And I see something else on your OP that I want some clarification from you:

"Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven."​

When were they evicted from heaven, exactly?