Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[TribulationSigns]

That verse would obviously make no sense if it was talking about Stephen's face appearing as if it had been the face of a human since he obviously was a human. So, this verse clearly is using the word "angel" to refer to a non-human.

Gee-whiz. They saw Stephen's face as the face of messenger with the ministering spirit.

How can anyone think that Gabriel is a human messenger and not an angel?

Gabriel "IS" Jesus Christ himself, the messenger of the Lord. Just as Michael is also Jesus Christ. The chief messenger of God. I have explained this with Scripture support before. No need to explain again to the deniers.

Are human messengers able to appear to people in visions and dreams and talk to them? Of course not. The amount of scriptural evidence showing the existence of real spirit beings called angels is overwhelming, but @TribulationSigns still denies it. Sad.

Sigh...here we go again... Still clueless, aren't you?

...according to whom? On the contrary, angels are very "literally, positively, strictly, absolutely, exactly, and precisely," Messengers. The divinely inspired written words themselves (מַלְאַךְ or [mal'ak] and ἄγγελος or [aggelos]) "explicitly" declare this so that there can be no confusion as if TribulationSigns is declaring or injecting this into the Text. The "God authored, divinely inspired actual Hebrew and Greek words ARE Messengers." Just so you know, it was God who authored that word, not me. ...despite the rhetoric from the peanut gallery where you are sitting from.

Jamess 2:25

• "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

That word מַלְאַךְ or [mal'ak] in Hebrew and ἄγγελος or [aggelos] in Greek concerning Rahab, is messenger (angel). Do you know why? It is because that word in Hebrew and Greek actually means messenger! Period! Thus an "actual" translation would render it messenger. But as you well know by now, it wasn't translated throughout the Bible, it was changed according to the translator's whim, feelings, opinions, thoughts, traditions, and flawed personal beliefs, like yours! An opinion is not divinely inspired, you will grant me that, won't you?

Rahab received the messengers of Israel. She didn't receive the "angels" of Israel because that divinely inspired word is messengers. Just as it is in the other places where it is found! Now there are different kinds of messengers, but they are all still messengers. God is a messenger, Jesus is a messenger, and the Holy Spirit is a Messenger, but it doesn't change the word messenger! Selah! No matter how people like you insist on "injecting" a Greek word into the Hebrew text in the Old Testament concerning these messengers, it doesn't change the divinely inspired Hebrew word messenger into man's opinion of it being an "angelic being." And this is the exact same word changed to "angel" elsewhere, illustrating once again that the word elsewhere means "messenger." That doesn't mean a being like the Lord, with supernatural abilities, cannot be a messenger (since Christ is clearly called a messenger/angel), it means that Christ is a Messenger coming with a message for God's people. He even appeared in Joseph's dream to take Mary and baby Jesus to Egypt! Not your silly feathered angel. Thus calling God or Jesus an angel (as translators have done) is a misnomer. The very fact that they did this Proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that translations are not infallible and that they are wrong.

2nd Samuel 22:31

• "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him."

Thus I trust that God's divinely inspired word for messenger there is tried and is found perfect. Meaning that man's refusal to translate it accurately, choosing instead to change that word to "mean" an angel, is in error. It may have been well-intentioned by translators, (cough, cough) but it is STILL an error.

Next!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you lean on this isolated verse and not show what God says about the 'serpent'?

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Even using just this one verse only it is a real stretch to allege that God created Satan whom the serpent represents as a good angel who rebelled against God and became Satan.

Did or did not the serpent do what his nature was designed by God to do? Yes, he did, he used his cunning, subtle nature to deceive A&E causing them to sin against God and bring death into creation.

Do you consider snakes/serpents (the animals) to be evil? They are not. Them being subtle simply refers to their ability to be unnoticeable before their strike their prey and has nothing to do with them being evil. And nowhere does it say that serpents are cunning, which is a word used to describe being intentionally deceitful. Animals are neither good nor evil and are not able to reason and make decisions between doing good things or evil things like being cunning (deceptive). There is obviously nothing evil or cunning about snakes being subtle about how they go about attacking their prey. So, I'm not understanding your argument here.

Satan is referred to as a serpent, not because serpents are naturally evil, but because they are subtle in how they go about catching their prey. He is subtle in a similar way as a serpent, except that his motives are evil while you can't say that a serpent's motives are evil. You're making a false equivalence here. You are making it as if serpents are naturally evil and therefore because Satan is called a serpent, that means he is naturally evil. But, serpents/snakes are not naturally evil. They are naturally subtle, which is not a synonym for evil.

I'm not alleging anything, I'm showing Scripture of what transpired when everything God created was "very good". Perhaps you have forgotten that God has always used evil to bring about good! In this case by creating the serpent to be cunning in and evil way, God brought good to mankind, because through the fall mankind has come to experience good and evil and through this can understand their desperate need of the Saviour.

Your argument seems to be that God created Satan to be evil and that was very good in His eyes. I'm sorry, but I don't understand that argument at all. To me, it is contradictory. Why will God torment Satan for eternity (Revelation 20:10) if Satan is naturally evil? Doesn't God punish people or angels for rebelling against Him rather than them doing the things He created them to do? Of course. But, you have God punishing Satan for no apparent reason. What would you say is the reason that God will cast Satan into torment for eternity (Rev 20:10)? You think that is what God wanted for Satan from the beginning? If so, why?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gee-whiz. They saw Stephen's face as the face of messenger with the ministering spirit.

LOL. You just don't get it. Why would be the reason for pointing out something obvious like that? As if we need to be told his face looked like that of a human for some reason? We couldn't figure that out if the text didn't tell us that?

No, the reason it says he looked as if he had the face of an angel is because his face did not look like a human face. It was likely glowing and did not appear as a human face normally appears.

Similar to the face of Moses after He talked to God on Mount Sinai.

Exodus 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

Gabriel "IS" Jesus Christ himself, the messenger of the Lord. Just as Michael is also Jesus Christ. The chief messenger of God. I have explained this with Scripture support before. No need to explain again to the deniers.

Warning! Warning! False teaching alert. This is just pure nonsense. I don't think I need to convince anyone about this one. Wow. No, Gabriel is not Jesus Christ and neither is Michael. Unbelievable.

Sigh...here we go again... Still clueless, aren't you?

The guy who is trying to claim that Gabriel and Michael are Jesus Christ is trying to claim that I'm clueless? LOL!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter says the devil is as a roaring lion, walking about

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

@TribulationSigns says the devil is the spirit of disobedience in man. Is that how the spirit of disobedience in man would be described? I would say definitely not. The spirit of disobedience in man does not "walketh about" as "a roaring lion" while "seeking whom he may devour. The text implies that the devil goes out to more than just one person to see which people "he may devour". How can the spirit of disobedience in one person do that? No, it's clearly referring to a non-human being called "the devil" who tries to attack human beings.

Paul was delivered out of the mouth of the lion

2Ti 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

The devil (or Satan) "walking about", seems to be play off what the LORD shows us in Job

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Again, is this how the spirit of disobedience in man would be described? Clearly not.

 

[Muna]

That verse would obviously make no sense if it was talking about Stephen's face appearing as if it had been the face of a human since he obviously was a human. So, this verse clearly is using the word "angel" to refer to a non-human.

I have told my daughter (when she was little) that she has the face of an angel (I am so guilty of misusing the term)

How can anyone think that Gabriel is a human messenger and not an angel? Are human messengers able to appear to people in visions and dreams and talk to them? Of course not. The amount of scriptural evidence showing the existence of real spirit beings called angels is overwhelming, but @TribulationSigns still denies it. Sad.

You know what though Spiritual Israelite, I probably wouldnt go so far as saying that human messengers cannot appear in visions in the scriptures since Moses and Elijah did appear in one with Jesus on the mount (Matt 17:9, Luke 9:30) Not to mention Paul also seeing the man Ananias coming to him in a vision in Acts 9:12, Then there is this mention of some other man showing up in one of Paul's visions in Acts 16:9. which I don't even know why that is in there because I don't even think that one materialized into anything substantial there (unless I am mistaken?). So there might just be some wiggle room there is all I am saying (particularly in a vision).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have told my daughter (when she was little) that she has the face of an angel (I am so guilty of misusing the term)

Yeah, and you weren't telling her that she had a face like a human, which would've been obvious, either. It's clear that the text relating to Stephen was differentiating his own face, a human face, with that of a non-human called an angel.

You know what though Spiritual Israelite, I probably wouldnt go so far as saying that human messengers cannot appear in visions in the scriptures since Moses and Elijah did appear in one with Jesus on the mount (Matt 17:9, Luke 9:30)

That wasn't a vision like the ones people had while sleeping, which is what I was talking about. Moses and Elijah were literally there with Jesus at His transfiguration and James, Peter and John literally saw them. That is completely different than what I'm talking about.

Not to mention Paul also seeing the man Ananias coming to him in a vision in Acts 9:12,

It does not describe Ananias talking to him and giving him a message from God. You are comparing apples to oranges here. I'm talking about someone appearing to someone in a dream or vision and giving them a message from God. That's what angels or archangels like Gabriel do.

Then there is this mention of some other man showing up in one of Paul's visions in Acts 16:9. which I don't even know why that is in there because I don't even think that one materialized into anything substantial there (unless I am mistaken?). So there might just be some wiggle room there is all I am saying (particularly in a vision).

I disagree, but I can also see you didn't understand what my argument was. Now you know, so would you agree or disagree that God would use a human to appear to someone in a vision or dream to give them a message? Or would you agree that is the role of angels or archangels like Gabriel to do that?

Also, regarding Gabriel, now TS is claiming that Gabriel is Jesus. So, his arguments just keep getting worse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gabriel "IS" Jesus Christ himself, the messenger of the Lord. Just as Michael is also Jesus Christ. The chief messenger of God. I have explained this with Scripture support before. No need to explain again to the deniers.

Just thought I'd quote this ridiculous claim again for all to see, in case anyone missed it. You've outdone yourself with this one.

And what do you do with the following text which differentiates between the angels who will be with Jesus when He comes to judge and the people who are gathered before Him to be judged? You can't say the angels are His human messengers when His human messengers will be among the sheep who inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) in "the kingdom prepared...from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34).

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[Muna]

Yeah, and you weren't telling her that she had a face like a human, which would've been obvious, either. It's clear that the text relating to Stephen was differentiating his own face, a human face, with that of a non-human called an angel.

No I was telling her that she was a cutie and heaven sent (Recall the song, heaven, must be missing an angel?) Sort of that way, but not really that way.

And I thought you answered that perfectly, how you added Moses face shining to it because its almost as how we might imagine it

That wasn't a vision like the ones people had while sleeping, which is what I was talking about. Moses and Elijah were literally there with Jesus at His transfiguration and James, Peter and John literally saw them. That is completely different than what I'm talking about.

I dont believe dreams and visions are the same thing, I regard that on the mount as a vision, even Paul had a heavenly vision of Jesus first and then the two of the him and Ananias had a vision between themselves with the Lord as a witness between those two even

It does not describe Ananias talking to him and giving him a message from God. You are comparing apples to oranges here. I'm talking about someone appearing to someone in a dream or vision and giving them a message from God. That's what angels or archangels like Gabriel do.

No, first Paul has a vision of Jesus Christ, as he tells King Agrippa about his vision here

Acts 26: 12 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision

When the Lord appeared to Paul he replied

Acts 9:6a And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Paul has received his instruction here

Acts 9:6b And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

The other witness (Ananias) is called in as a second witness to Paul's calling and he himself is given a vision of Paul and the Lord seals his instruction with instructions (which pertains to Paul's own)

He says to Paul,

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

As the Lord told Paul in Acts 9:6

and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

And so it was

I disagree, but I can also see you didn't understand what my argument was. Now you know, so would you agree or disagree that God would use a human to appear to someone in a vision or dream to give them a message? Or would you agree that is the role of angels or archangels like Gabriel to do that?

Also, regarding Gabriel, now TS is claiming that Gabriel is Jesus. So, his arguments just keep getting worse.

After appearing to Paul, who was told to go into the city and wait for further instruction, the Lord shows up to this man in a vision

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

And the Lord tells us right here what Paul is seeing in his vision (which is speaking of Ananias coming to him)

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Here we see he went

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

So yeah, I think me and you disagree on using a man in a vision, since Jesus did tell Ananias what Paul saw in his vision

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

So he used a vision of the man who would come to him.

Unless you regard Ananias as an angel there?

 

[Muna]

Also, regarding Gabriel, now TS is claiming that Gabriel is Jesus. So, his arguments just keep getting worse.

I missed this one SI, I hear so many things on the internet I am not at all surprised anymore.

 

[Scott Downey]

Not entirely. I certainly disagree with his view that the thousand years would occur after Jesus returns. I don't know a lot about what else he believed.


He was just as wrong about that as he was with his Chiliast belief regarding the timing of the thousand years.

I agree, the ECF often had disagreeable doctrines on various subjects. As does every Christian forum I have read.
Everyone differs on something. Some differences are more critical than others!

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. You just don't get it.

No you don't get it.

No, the reason it says he looked as if he had the face of an angel is because his face did not look like a human face. It was likely glowing and did not appear as a human face normally appears.

Come on, seriously? It doesn’t mean Stephen turned into some winged angel or be like your version of made-up angels. His radiant face was the clear evidence of God’s presence and Spirit resting on him — a visible testimony that he was God’s glorified messenger standing before them. And yet, instead of falling on their knees in fear, what did they do? Did they at least cover his glowing face before hurling stones at him? Unbelievable.

Similar to the face of Moses after He talked to God on Mount Sinai.

Exodus 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

So, Jesus’ face shone like the sun during the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:2). Does that make Him an angel? LOL!

And Moses — he saw the back of God in His glory, yet even that made his face shine when he came down from the mountain. Did that turn him into an angel, or will be "like" your fantasy being? Of course not! His radiant face showed that he had been in the very presence of God — a glorified messenger, not some winged being from heaven.

One day, Elect too will shine in that same glory, like the stars in His presence. Selah! There will NOT be literal angels in heaven, as some people mistakenly think.

View attachment 71712

Warning! Warning! False teaching alert. This is just pure nonsense. I don't think I need to convince anyone about this one. Wow. No, Gabriel is not Jesus Christ and neither is Michael. Unbelievable.

LOL. I’ve heard far worse from naysayers, even as I’ve gained faithful supporters. So honestly, your denial doesn’t exactly shock me a bit.

The guy who is trying to claim that Gabriel and Michael are Jesus Christ is trying to claim that I'm clueless? LOL!

Yep!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is that your final answer? Ready for my answer?



Did you ever study Gabriel in Hebrew?

1403 Gabriy'el gab-ree-ale' from 'geber' (1397) and ''el' (410); man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:--Garbriel.
1397 geber gheh'-ber from 'gabar' (1396); properly, a valiant man or warrior; generally, a person simply:--every one, man, X mighty.
410 'el ale shortened from ''ayil' (352); strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

Like Michael, Gabriel is identified as the angel of the Lord, Jesus Christ!

Luk 1:11-20
(11) And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
(12) And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
(13) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
(14) And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
(15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
(16) And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
(17) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(18) And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
(19) And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
(20) And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Who exactly is this angel of the Lord?

Jdg 13:21-22
(21) But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
(22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Gen 16:9-13
(9) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
(10) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
(11) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
(12) And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
(13) And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Exo 3:2-6
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

The angel of the Lord is GOD HIMSELF! And since no man has seen God the Father and lives, it has to be Jesus Christ as His Messenger! He has many names, like Michael (one who is assuredly is God) and Gabriel (God man).

Joh 5:36-37
(36) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
(37) And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

If Gabriel is the angel (messenger) of the Lord, then yes, SI, Gabriel indeed has to be Jesus Christ.



Don't tell me that I did not warn you before, remember this on Judgment day. (wink).

@rwb

@rwb You liked this post, so does that mean you agree with him that Gabriel is Jesus Christ? Gabriel is described as an angel (Luke 1:19,26).

But, it's not possible that Gabriel or any angel is Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

This text shows that God never called any angel His Son and that the angels of God worship Jesus. So, Gabriel, an angel, was never told by God the Father "You are My Son" and angels, including Gabriel, worship Jesus. So, it is not possible that Gabriel or any other angel like Michael, is Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Get used to it! Evasion is the MO for those who cannot offer a Biblical response. Evasion, and slander there is no end!

Why are you so supportive of someone who denies the existence of angels, including Satan and demons, and claims that Gabriel is Jesus Christ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I missed this one SI, I hear so many things on the internet I am not at all surprised anymore.

That's why I mentioned it again. To make sure no one misses it so that people can see how outlandish this guy's views are and that he can't be trusted to teach the truth from God's word.

 

[rwb]

See...God doesn’t want His book of Revelation to be easy to understand. It is written in parabolic and symbolic form because it is not given by God for everyone to comprehend. It is called “The Revelation” because it is a spiritual revealing—understood only by those to whom God gives the Spirit of Revelation to discern what He is actually revealing.

Satan is NOT a distinct being separate from man. Not at all! That is why the spirit of man—being evil—cannot know the deep things of God. Because of this curse, divine truth is hidden from him. His spirit is of the earth, earthly.

2 Corinthians 4:4

• “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

Man is accursed and has become as a serpent, a viper, a locust, a scorpion, and so on—which is why Christ called them exactly that many times throughout Scripture. It is man's own rebellious mind is what blind them. Without Christ, man himself becomes the antichrist, because he carries the spirit of an adversary. And what is the name of that spirit of an adversary, again? Satan!

Because of the curse that God placed upon the serpent, unsaved man is spiritually a generation of serpents—a family under the same condemnation.

Matthew 23:33

• “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

The men with spirit of Satan cannot—because of the curse that comes from their own disobedience. Christ was addressing the generation of man, those under the curse as the spiritual family of serpents. If I’m wrong, then prove it with Scripture!

Galatians 3:10

• “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

In short, cursed are the disobedient. God paints unsaved men as the body of the beast, serving their fallen spirit—that old serpent, called Satan. The casting of Satan into the lake of fire represents the final judgment of man’s corrupt spirit—Satan—along with all men who remain under that curse. Selah!

Excellent reply TS,

When anyone clings to the doctrine of free will denying the curse of the fall it is the reason they cannot accept what is clearly/plainly written in the Word of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No I was telling her that she was a cutie and heaven sent (Recall the song, heaven, must be missing an angel?) Sort of that way, but not really that way.

And I thought you answered that perfectly, how you added Moses face shining to it because its almost as how we might imagine it

I dont believe dreams and visions are the same thing, I regard that on the mount as a vision, even Paul had a heavenly vision of Jesus first and then the two of the him and Ananias had a vision between themselves with the Lord as a witness between those two even

No, first Paul has a vision of Jesus Christ, as he tells King Agrippa about his vision here

Acts 26: 12 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision

When the Lord appeared to Paul he replied

Acts 9:6a And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Paul has received his instruction here

Acts 9:6b And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

The other witness (Ananias) is called in as a second witness to Paul's calling and he himself is given a vision of Paul and the Lord seals his instruction with instructions (which pertains to Paul's own)

He says to Paul,

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

As the Lord told Paul in Acts 9:6

and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

And so it was



After appearing to Paul, who was told to go into the city and wait for further instruction, the Lord shows up to this man in a vision

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

And the Lord tells us right here what Paul is seeing in his vision (which is speaking of Ananias coming to him)

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Here we see he went

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

So yeah, I think me and you disagree on using a man in a vision, since Jesus did tell Ananias what Paul saw in his vision

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

So he used a vision of the man who would come to him.

Unless you regard Ananias as an angel there?

You lost me on this one. I have no idea what your point is here. You can try to explain it if you want or we can move on.

 

[rwb]

Gee-whiz. They saw Stephen's face as the face of messenger with the ministering spirit.



Gabriel "IS" Jesus Christ himself, the messenger of the Lord. Just as Michael is also Jesus Christ. The chief messenger of God. I have explained this with Scripture support before. No need to explain again to the deniers.


Sigh...here we go again... Still clueless, aren't you?

...according to whom? On the contrary, angels are very "literally, positively, strictly, absolutely, exactly, and precisely," Messengers. The divinely inspired written words themselves (מַלְאַךְ or [mal'ak] and ἄγγελος or [aggelos]) "explicitly" declare this so that there can be no confusion as if TribulationSigns is declaring or injecting this into the Text. The "God authored, divinely inspired actual Hebrew and Greek words ARE Messengers." Just so you know, it was God who authored that word, not me. ...despite the rhetoric from the peanut gallery where you are sitting from.

Jamess 2:25

• "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

That word מַלְאַךְ or [mal'ak] in Hebrew and ἄγγελος or [aggelos] in Greek concerning Rahab, is messenger (angel). Do you know why? It is because that word in Hebrew and Greek actually means messenger! Period! Thus an "actual" translation would render it messenger. But as you well know by now, it wasn't translated throughout the Bible, it was changed according to the translator's whim, feelings, opinions, thoughts, traditions, and flawed personal beliefs, like yours! An opinion is not divinely inspired, you will grant me that, won't you?

Rahab received the messengers of Israel. She didn't receive the "angels" of Israel because that divinely inspired word is messengers. Just as it is in the other places where it is found! Now there are different kinds of messengers, but they are all still messengers. God is a messenger, Jesus is a messenger, and the Holy Spirit is a Messenger, but it doesn't change the word messenger! Selah! No matter how people like you insist on "injecting" a Greek word into the Hebrew text in the Old Testament concerning these messengers, it doesn't change the divinely inspired Hebrew word messenger into man's opinion of it being an "angelic being." And this is the exact same word changed to "angel" elsewhere, illustrating once again that the word elsewhere means "messenger." That doesn't mean a being like the Lord, with supernatural abilities, cannot be a messenger (since Christ is clearly called a messenger/angel), it means that Christ is a Messenger coming with a message for God's people. He even appeared in Joseph's dream to take Mary and baby Jesus to Egypt! Not your silly feathered angel. Thus calling God or Jesus an angel (as translators have done) is a misnomer. The very fact that they did this Proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that translations are not infallible and that they are wrong.

2nd Samuel 22:31

• "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him."

Thus I trust that God's divinely inspired word for messenger there is tried and is found perfect. Meaning that man's refusal to translate it accurately, choosing instead to change that word to "mean" an angel, is in error. It may have been well-intentioned by translators, (cough, cough) but it is STILL an error.

Next!

Although I have bowed out of this particular discussion, I will continue to uphold these truths you are proclaiming. I caution you though, be careful not to drawn into replying in ways that bring dishonor to God. Many blessings rwb

 

[TribulationSigns]

@rwb You liked this post, so does that mean you agree with him that Gabriel is Jesus Christ? Gabriel is described as an angel (Luke 1:19,26).

But, it's not possible that Gabriel or any angel is Jesus Christ

You already have been refuted here and here.

Please read the context:

Heb 1:4-14
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
(11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
(12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
(14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

...Try/Prove/Test the ministering spirits "because" everyone who claims to be God's "messengers," God's beloved spirits, aren't!

1st John 4:1

• "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.."

Prove the ministering spirits to see if their ministry is actually from God. Amen!

Also you keep insisted 1st Hebrews 1:5 are angels.

"But to which of the messengers said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

The answer is none, since none were the Chief Messenger except Michael, the Messenger of the Covenant who stood up for the people, who fought with the Dragon and His army (Revelation 12) and who gave His army of messengers, His people, the victory over Him by His shed blood. You see it is we (God's Children) who are soldiers in the army of the Lord, and our weapons and shields are spiritual, not carnal. We are all more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. I know you don't like hearing Scripture I quote but here it is anyway.

Revelation 12:7-11

• "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
• And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
• And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
• And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
• And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Angels fighting in literal Heaven?? Perish the thought! They are not getting the physical victory by Christ's death, the messengers of the Kingdom are getting the Spiritual victory by Christ's shed blood. The Satan and His children accused Christ (John 8:6) and argued about the body of Moses with Him, and with this victory the accuser of them is cast down. In other words, this warfare (whatever you might think it is), was won by Christ going to the cross. It's not a literal battle of literal angels in literal heaven like Hollywood may make (God Forbid) as some suppose, but is the stuff of bad movies, Televangelist, Sunday School, and sloppy exegesis, which you are deceived with!

 

[Muna]

You lost me on this one. I have no idea what your point is here. You can try to explain it if you want or we can move on.

You had asked me about men being used in visions. The scriptures show that the Lord could do that, since the Lord tells Ananias (in his own vision) that Paul also was seeing a vision, that vision was of a man named Ananias coming to him.

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Ananias was the one who the Lord would send to Paul after his vision (which blinded his eyes)

Acts 9:6b And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Who said to Paul

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That was what I was referring to, so yes I believe men can be used in visions because the scripture shows an example of it there

 

[Muna]

@rwb You liked this post, so does that mean you agree with him that Gabriel is Jesus Christ? Gabriel is described as an angel (Luke 1:19,26).

But, it's not possible that Gabriel or any angel is Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

This text shows that God never called any angel His Son and that the angels of God worship Jesus. So, Gabriel, an angel, was never told by God the Father "You are My Son" and angels, including Gabriel, worship Jesus. So, it is not possible that Gabriel or any other angel like Michael, is Jesus Christ.

Amen

Says here,

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

But rather

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet.

Speaking of Jesus Christ

Heb 2:8b For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

Jesus ,the Word which was made flesh

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

Taking on him the seed of Abraham

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


Edit: to add in that last one there