Did the Apostle Paul believe in a forever burning hell?

[St. SteVen]

The problem for most churches and most Christians is that they utterly IGNORE any and all scriptures that contradict the theology that Jesus tortures people forever in a forever torture chamber. They simply WILL NOT budge from that false (and twisted) doctrine.

So true.
Both the churched and unchurched are taught from the youngest age about heaven and hell.
Hard to shake out of that later in life. Thanks for your posts.

[

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus said you're VERY wrong!

Matt 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Same exact fate for humans and the Devil!

You are inventing terms which the Scripture never uses. Do you see the word "Hell" anywhere in this text you have just written out? It isn't there. A "Lake of Fire" is mentioned (which is defined as the "second death" in Rev. 20:14), as well as "the everlasting fire", but these are NOT the same thing as "Hell". The words "Hell fire" are never used in conjunction with each other in Scripture. It is an artificially-concocted term.

That "everlasting fire" is speaking of the fiery stream which continually issues forth from before God's eternal throne, as in Daniel 7:9-10. "...his throne was as the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him..." God as the Source of that fiery stream is eternal, which is why Scripture uses the term "everlasting fire".

Our God is called "a consuming fire". The fire of His utter holiness consumes anything which comes before Him which is not likewise perfect in holiness - or with imputed holiness, such as the imputed righteousness we have in Christ Jesus.

It is not the wicked who are to dwell with that everlasting fire, but it is the righteous who are to enjoy that privilege, as Isaiah 33:14-17 once described. "...Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; HE shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be give him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off."

I anticipate with great joy the prospect of dwelling face to face with the "devouring fire" coming from the eternal God my King who is the Source of those "everlasting burnings", and whose holy presence consumes anything which is unholy.

What you are reading in the above Revelation 20:10 text is the torment which the entire Satanic realm experienced when they were imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 years (predicted by Isaiah 24:21-23 and Revelation 18:2). Christ had already predicted to His own wicked generation in Matthew 12:43-45 that the unclean spirits which He had been casting out of Israel's citizens would all return in seven-fold numbers even more wicked than those which had been plaguing the cities of Israel in Christ's day. This seven-fold plague of unclean spirits descending on them again rendered that wicked generation's "last state" worse than its "first state" when Christ had been among them.

God had purposed to use the besieged city of Jerusalem during AD 66-70 to torment the imprisoned Devil and all his angels, as well as the two Beasts which were cast "ALIVE" into that "Lake of Fire" which was the "second death" of the city of Jerusalem. This Matthew 25:10 text is NOT a description of a tormented after-life existence of all the wicked dead. It specifically limits that torment to the Devil and his angels along with the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 and the "false prophet" of Rev. 13. It was a description of the torments which these LIVING inhabitants of Jerusalem experienced as the city was being destroyed and burned up for a second time - comparable to its first death under the Babylonian invasion in 587 BC.

As for the "forever and ever" phrase, this is not speaking of perpetual torment for the wicked dead or for Satan and his angels into an unending eternity. God intended to slay Satan and all his devils so that they would no more exist. The Greek in Revelation 20:10 is "eis ton aionon" - "unto the ages". Ages have ending points, you know. And the Apostle Paul wrote that "the ends of the ages" had come upon his own first-century readers (1 Cor. 10:11 - "...and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.") That "unto the ages" torment for those living in Jerusalem ended with the close of those ages in the first century.

You are trying to shoehorn your own interpretation of what you presume is a perpetual after-life torment for all the wicked dead into passages that actually describe the tormented living conditions for people on earth during the wartime siege period of the city of Jerusalem in AD 66-70.

 

[St. SteVen]

... some then rise unto eternal life, some to eternal damnation.

For what purpose?
Isn't God in the business of redeeming fallen humankind?
Or do you think He is in the eternal punishment business? (few find it) ???

[

 

[Jack]

You are inventing terms which the Scripture never uses.

I quoted Jesus. Your Bible doesn't warn about THE FIRE? It must be missing some pages.

Do you see the word "Hell" anywhere in this text you have just written out? It isn't there. A "Lake of Fire" is mentioned (which is defined as the "second death" in Rev. 20:14), as well as "the everlasting fire", but these are NOT the same thing as "Hell". The words "Hell fire" are never used in conjunction with each other in Scripture. It is an artificially-concocted term.

You're playing JW word games.

That "everlasting fire" is speaking of the fiery stream which continually issues forth from before God's eternal throne, as in Daniel 7:9-10. "...his throne was as the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him..." God as the Source of that fiery stream is eternal, which is why Scripture uses the term "everlasting fire".

Revelation 20:14-15 (YLT)
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Our God is called "a consuming fire". The fire of His utter holiness consumes anything which comes before Him which is not likewise perfect in holiness - or with imputed holiness, such as the imputed righteousness we have in Christ Jesus.

It is not the wicked who are to dwell with that everlasting fire, but it is the righteous who are to enjoy that privilege, as Isaiah 33:14-17 once described. "...Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; HE shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be give him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off."

I anticipate with great joy the prospect of dwelling face to face with the "devouring fire" coming from the eternal God my King who is the Source of those "everlasting burnings", and whose holy presence consumes anything which is unholy.

What you are reading in the above Revelation 20:10 text is the torment which the entire Satanic realm experienced when they were imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 years (predicted by Isaiah 24:21-23 and Revelation 18:2). Christ had already predicted to His own wicked generation in Matthew 12:43-45 that the unclean spirits which He had been casting out of Israel's citizens would all return in seven-fold numbers even more wicked than those which had been plaguing the cities of Israel in Christ's day. This seven-fold plague of unclean spirits descending on them again rendered that wicked generation's "last state" worse than its "first state" when Christ had been among them.

God had purposed to use the besieged city of Jerusalem during AD 66-70 to torment the imprisoned Devil and all his angels, as well as the two Beasts which were cast "ALIVE" into that "Lake of Fire" which was the "second death" of the city of Jerusalem. This Matthew 25:10 text is NOT a description of a tormented after-life existence of all the wicked dead. It specifically limits that torment to the Devil and his angels along with the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 and the "false prophet" of Rev. 13. It was a description of the torments which these LIVING inhabitants of Jerusalem experienced as the city was being destroyed and burned up for a second time - comparable to its first death under the Babylonian invasion in 587 BC.

As for the "forever and ever" phrase, this is not speaking of perpetual torment for the wicked dead or for Satan and his angels into an unending eternity. God intended to slay Satan and all his devils so that they would no more exist. The Greek in Revelation 20:10 is "eis ton aionon" - "unto the ages". Ages have ending points, you know. And the Apostle Paul wrote that "the ends of the ages" had come upon his own first-century readers (1 Cor. 10:11 - "...and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.") That "unto the ages" torment for those living in Jerusalem ended with the close of those ages in the first century.

You are trying to shoehorn your own interpretation of what you presume is a perpetual after-life torment for all the wicked dead into passages that actually describe the tormented living conditions for people on earth during the wartime siege period of the city of Jerusalem in AD 66-70.

Revelation 20:10 (YLT)
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

 

[NotTheRock]

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting,

My understanding is that it CAN mean forever but that it can also mean for a period of time, such as an age. I know that Paul was describing an age because "forever" would contradict many of his own teachings as well as Biblical teachings.

 

[NotTheRock]

A "Lake of Fire...

It's also interesting that it's only used in Revelation and nowhere else. In any event, it's NOT what mainstream Christian Infernalists believe it to be.

 

[NotTheRock]

You are inventing terms which the Scripture never uses. Do you see the word "Hell" anywhere in this text you have just written out? It isn't there. A "Lake of Fire" is mentioned (which is defined as the "second death" in Rev. 20:14), as well as "the everlasting fire", but these are NOT the same thing as "Hell". The words "Hell fire" are never used in conjunction with each other in Scripture. It is an artificially-concocted term.

That "everlasting fire" is speaking of the fiery stream which continually issues forth from before God's eternal throne, as in Daniel 7:9-10. "...his throne was as the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him..." God as the Source of that fiery stream is eternal, which is why Scripture uses the term "everlasting fire".

Our God is called "a consuming fire". The fire of His utter holiness consumes anything which comes before Him which is not likewise perfect in holiness - or with imputed holiness, such as the imputed righteousness we have in Christ Jesus.

It is not the wicked who are to dwell with that everlasting fire, but it is the righteous who are to enjoy that privilege, as Isaiah 33:14-17 once described. "...Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; HE shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be give him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off."

I anticipate with great joy the prospect of dwelling face to face with the "devouring fire" coming from the eternal God my King who is the Source of those "everlasting burnings", and whose holy presence consumes anything which is unholy.

What you are reading in the above Revelation 20:10 text is the torment which the entire Satanic realm experienced when they were imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 years (predicted by Isaiah 24:21-23 and Revelation 18:2). Christ had already predicted to His own wicked generation in Matthew 12:43-45 that the unclean spirits which He had been casting out of Israel's citizens would all return in seven-fold numbers even more wicked than those which had been plaguing the cities of Israel in Christ's day. This seven-fold plague of unclean spirits descending on them again rendered that wicked generation's "last state" worse than its "first state" when Christ had been among them.

God had purposed to use the besieged city of Jerusalem during AD 66-70 to torment the imprisoned Devil and all his angels, as well as the two Beasts which were cast "ALIVE" into that "Lake of Fire" which was the "second death" of the city of Jerusalem. This Matthew 25:10 text is NOT a description of a tormented after-life existence of all the wicked dead. It specifically limits that torment to the Devil and his angels along with the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 and the "false prophet" of Rev. 13. It was a description of the torments which these LIVING inhabitants of Jerusalem experienced as the city was being destroyed and burned up for a second time - comparable to its first death under the Babylonian invasion in 587 BC.

As for the "forever and ever" phrase, this is not speaking of perpetual torment for the wicked dead or for Satan and his angels into an unending eternity. God intended to slay Satan and all his devils so that they would no more exist. The Greek in Revelation 20:10 is "eis ton aionon" - "unto the ages". Ages have ending points, you know. And the Apostle Paul wrote that "the ends of the ages" had come upon his own first-century readers (1 Cor. 10:11 - "...and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.") That "unto the ages" torment for those living in Jerusalem ended with the close of those ages in the first century.

You are trying to shoehorn your own interpretation of what you presume is a perpetual after-life torment for all the wicked dead into passages that actually describe the tormented living conditions for people on earth during the wartime siege period of the city of Jerusalem in AD 66-70.

Great post.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's also interesting that it's only used in Revelation and nowhere else. In any event, it's NOT what mainstream Christian Infernalists believe it to be.

That's a great point.
Neither Jesus nor all the other apostles ever speak of The Lake of Fire.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

That's a great point.
Neither Jesus nor all the other apostles ever speak of The Lake of Fire.

cc: @Charlie24

See post #66

 

[Jack]

Here's what Jesus will say to Hell deniers on Judgment Day:

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[3 Resurrections]

I quoted Jesus. Your Bible doesn't warn about THE FIRE? It must be missing some pages.

Of course the Bible warns about "fire". But it does NOT warn about something you are inventing which you call "Hell fire". "Hell" (Hades) is simply the grave. ALL mankind experiences dying and going into the grave one time. We have a one-time death appointment which all must experience the one time. Even Christ's body went into the grave. But God did not leave His soul in Hell (the grave). Neither did He suffer His holy one to see corruption in that grave.

Christ once said "I am come to bring fire on THE EARTH, and how I wish it were already kindled!" This term is "tes ges" - meaning the land of Israel. John the Baptist also warned his fellow-countrymen about Christ coming to send fire on the earth in Luke 3:16-17. "...one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into His garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable." Chaff doesn't last very long in burning up. It goes up in smoke almost instantaneously. This "fire" was a soon-coming disaster that would befall the citizens of Israel whom John was warning in his own generation. It is not speaking of a presumed tormented after-life existence for the wicked dead.

You're playing JW word games.

You are the one inventing word terms such as "Hell fire" - not I.

Revelation 20:14-15 (YLT)
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Don't you see? If "Hell" is thrown INTO the "Lake of Fire" (which was the "second death" of Jerusalem), then the "Lake of Fire" cannot possibly be "Hell" itself. This is not the first time that Death and Hell (the grave) were thrown into Jerusalem, to plague the living, besieged inhabitants of the city. It happened once before under the Babylonian invasion in Isaiah 28:15-19. The rulers in Jerusalem had made a covenant and an agreement with Death and with Hell, that it would not come unto them. God predicted that their covenant with Death and with Hell would not stand. When the overwhelming scourge would pass through, then they would be overcome by it. This was Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonian invasion in 587 BC, and it was duplicated once more for a second time (the "second death") during the AD 66-70 siege when the city literally turned into a "Lake of fire" as it was being destroyed down to the ground for a second time. Those who had not believed Christ's warning to flee to the mountains to escape the armies surrounding Jerusalem were going to physically die within the besieged city. They were not in the scroll of life, and so perished in the city of Jerusalem.

You are trying to extend Christ's warning to escape physical death in Jerusalem's "Lake of fire" conditions into a presumed tormented after life for all the wicked.

Revelation 20:10 (YLT)
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

And at the end of those ages in AD 70, God slew that Dragon and all his demonic hosts which had been imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem, as prophesied in Isaiah and Zechariah and Revelation. Satan DIED and was turned into ashes on the earth, as well as all his demonic hosts in the city of Jerusalem by the close of AD 70.

 

[Jack]

Of course the Bible warns about "fire". But it does NOT warn about something you are inventing which you call "Hell fire". "Hell" (Hades) is simply the grave.

I seriously doubt that the BILLIONS of humans burning "forever and ever" will be debating the name of their eternal home. And those who convince them will be there with them!

 

[3 Resurrections]

I seriously doubt that the BILLIONS of humans burning "forever and ever" will be debating the name of their eternal home. And those who convince them will be there with them!

This "burning forever and ever" is a presumption on your part, which Scripture never teaches. In the Garden of Eden, God set up a sword guarding the way to the Tree of Life, so that fallen mankind could NOT eat of that Tree of Life and live forever in a wicked state of separation from God. God has never planned for the wicked to live perpetually in that state of separation from God. He is long-suffering with the wicked, but He has no intention of allowing the existence of the wicked dead to persist after the final judgment - even life in torment.

What you think is going to happen to the wicked dead is NOT the fate determined for them in Scripture. Christ said they do not have everlasting life, but are doomed to PERISH. This is true for both body and soul of the wicked, so that nothing of them will ever live again after the judgment. The "resurrection to destruction" is just that - destruction - NOT torment for eternity. The exact opposite of "eternal life" is NOT your supposed "eternal life in torment". The exact opposite of "eternal life" is no restored life at all, in a death sentence of destruction that is never rescinded.

 

[Charlie24]

cc: @Charlie24

See post #66

There were many things Christ never mentioned, that's why we have the rest of the NT Scripture with inspired writing from Paul, Peter, John, ect. to explain for us.

If we only had the Gospels and what Christ said, we would know nothing about the Church, the New Covenant, exactly how to be saved, ect.

 

[St. SteVen]

There were many things Christ never mentioned, that's why we have the rest of the NT Scripture with inspired writing from Paul, Peter, John, ect. to explain for us.

If we only had the Gospels and what Christ said, we would know nothing about the Church, the New Covenant, exactly how to be saved, ect.

Good point. But...

What becomes of your question about when anyone gets out of the Lake of Fire if...

... neither Jesus nor all the other apostles ever speak of The Lake of Fire.

If it was really that important, why only John?

 

[Behold]

Those who ultimately reject Christ are not given eternal life in Hell -

Everyone who died this very day... as a Christ rejector, never born again, went to HELL like a bullet.
And they are in HELL right now begging God, for mercy.......telling Him how sorry they are and how much they NOW believe in Jesus.
And God does not respond, because once you exit this place, and go into eternity as a Christ rejector, never born again, you have forfeited forever your only chance to be forgiven all your sin, and be born again.

Listen, You can not be forgiven you sin and be born again In HELL.
There is no NO 2nd CHANCE given to you, in Hell.
Your 2nd Chance was your whole LIFE that you had to come to Jesus and accept God's love and forgiveness.

So, if you are reading this and are hoping that Hell is not real......because Liars who have no understanding of God's ETERNAL Justice have told you that Hell is not wating for a Christ Rejector..then here is a fair warning..... = They LIED to you and they will again.
But i didnt.

Listen,
Noone has to go to Hell.
Jesus is waiting for you.
You get to choose, Reader.
Dont wait, as you dont know when you are going to Die......so, get your eternity resolved. Trust in Christ..... and Let God forgive you, and bring you into Heaven as a part of His family.
= Don't wait. !

 

[Charlie24]

Good point. But...

What becomes of your question about when anyone gets out of the Lake of Fire if...

... neither Jesus nor all the other apostles ever speak of The Lake of Fire.

If it was really that important, why only John?

Christ assigned certain men to explain certain things.

He gave to Paul the assignment of explaining how the Church would operate. Exactly how man is saved with direct instructions, not by illustration as the rest of the Scripture gives. He also gave to Paul the meaning of the New Covenant well before the 12 apostles understood it, And Paul gave it to us through the revelation given to him by Christ.

He gave John the assignment of explaining the the future events that would take place.

He gave Peter the assignment of comforting the Churches in his letters of the persecution that was to come.

So on and so on...

 

[Jack]

This "burning forever and ever" is a presumption on your part, which Scripture never teaches.

Should I believe you or Jesus?

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[ScottA]

For what purpose?
Isn't God in the business of redeeming fallen humankind?
Or do you think He is in the eternal punishment business? (few find it) ???

[

Humanity is a creation of Light vs. darkness, the "image" of things on high, including God. Which was His act of dividing the Light from the darkness--to, as it is written--"destroy" it. Without which there would be no creation--no humanity. He's cleaning House--and no, the dirt is not made clean--His own body is made clean.

 

[soberxp]

True indeed, but I'm not in a Chinese forum.

For the letter kills but Holy spirit gives life.

Don't focus on the hell, focus on the life.