Jesus is the Son of his God

[HealthyShape]

Since you have mentioned earlier that you are able to read the scripture in Greek, (that was you, correct? forgive me if I am wrong), please explain the meaning of pros.

It can have plethora of possible translations, depending on the context. Generally, it means nearness, closeness.

In J 1:1 it is mostly translated as "with".

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias you gave me like 12 questions in 6 posts. Let us keep the conversation a bit manageable. Would you say you have some form of OCD?

No, I would not. I do not and never have had any form of OCD. What you asked tells me a lot about you.

I do not think that non-trinitarians can be called Christians.

Thank you. What that tells me is that you have a deficient knowledge of church history / Christianity.

Not in the standard, accepted meaning of the word, today. Maybe only technically "somebody believing in Christ", but that is all. They would not be accepted as Christians by the vast majority of Christians.

Anyway, the point was these are Christian forums. So your answers like "but this is not so in Judaism" are irrelevant.

The founder of Christianity is Jewish. His religion is Judaism, which has been confirmed by the trinitarian ministry Jews For Jesus. I provided the link to their confirmation in this thread.

 

[Matthias]

It is not either-or. The cultures influenced each other and mixed. For example Galilee was something like today's USA - a melting pot of various cultures and nations. Inhabitants were even commonly multilingual.

If you believe that Jesus was influenced by Hellenism then please say it plainly.

 

[HealthyShape]

The founder of Christianity is Jewish. His religion is Judaism, which has been confirmed by the trinitarian ministry Jews For Jesus. I provided the link to their confirmation in this thread.

The founder of Christianity is God in flesh. God is not Jewish.

 

[Matthias]

The founder of Christianity is God in flesh.

The founder of Christianity is Jesus of Nazareth. You will see if will that his creed is the creed of Judaism.

God is not Jewish.

God is not Jewish. The Messiah is Jewish.

You know that the Messiah’s God is only one person. You know that is the fundamental belief of Jewish unitary monotheism.

 

[HealthyShape]

If you believe that Jesus was influenced by Hellenism then please say it plainly.

Saying that God was influenced is a weird formulation. But I am pretty sure Jesus was familiar with Hebrew, Greek and Roman culture and concepts like every educated inhabitant of Galilee, Judea or Jerusalem.

 

[HealthyShape]

God is not Jewish. The Messiah is Jewish.

And here we go again in circles. The Messiah is God.

 

[Matthias]

Saying that God was influenced is a weird formulation.

No one has made that formulation. The Messiah’s God is Yahweh. Yahweh wasn’t influenced by anyone.

But I am pretty sure Jesus was familiar with Hebrew, Greek and Roman culture and concepts like every educated inhabitant of Galilee, Judea or Jerusalem.

He was.

 

[Matthias]

And here we go again in circles. The Messiah is God.

Keep chasing your tail. I’ve documented using trinitarian sources and scripture that the Messiah’s God is the one God of Israel.

The Messiah himself is God, only within the constraints of Jewish monotheism.

Jesus monotheism is the monotheism of Israel. Your form of monotheism is not.

 

[HealthyShape]

Keep chasing your tail. I’ve documented using trinitarian sources and scripture that the Messiah’s God is the one God of Israel.

The Messiah himself is God, only within the constraints of Jewish monotheism.

Jesus monotheism is the monotheism of Israel. Your form of monotheism is not.

I do not care if my form of monotheism is the monotheism of Israel or not. Israel got almost everything wrong, killed the prophets and Jesus and till today is in the spiritual blindness.

You will not succeed with such arguments, here.

 

[Matthias]

I do not care if my form of monotheism is the monotheism of Israel or not.

You should. It‘s the Messiah’s form of monotheism.

Your form monotheism is post-biblical. If you are persuaded that the church got it right when it gradually moved away from the monotheism of Israel then your right where you should be.

Israel got almost everything wrong, killed the prophets and Jesus and till today is in the spiritual blindness.

You will not succeed with such arguments, here.

Jesus is the ideal Israelite. He didn’t get anything wrong and he didn’t kill the prophets. The Romans killed Jesus, at the behest of unbelieving Jewish religious authorities, and you are just as responsible for his death as everyone else is.

 

[HealthyShape]

You should. It is the Messiah’s form of monotheism.

Jesus is the ideal Israelite.

So, you are basically redefining Israel to mean Jesus. Which is in a direct conflict with the 99% of what Israel believed and believe.

 

[HealthyShape]

The Romans killed Jesus, at the behest of unbelieving Jewish religious authorities, and you are just as responsible for his death as everyone else is.

Please, do not argue with the apostle Paul. Christian forums, remember.

 

[Matthias]

So, you are basically redefining Israel to mean Jesus.

No. I’m alluding to trinitarian scholars who identify Jesus as the ideal, perfect, sinless, Israelite.

Which is in a direct conflict with the 99% of what Israel believed and believe.

 

[Matthias]

Please, do not argue with the apostle Paul.

I’m not arguing with Paul. Like Jesus, his monotheism is the monotheism of Israel which you don’t care about.

 

[HealthyShape]

I’m not arguing with Paul. Like Jesus, his monotheism is the monotheism of Israel which you don’t care about.

And your term "Israel" will have no practical, historical meaning, again? Why was Paul stoned, beaten and hated by the Jews, then?

 

[Matthias]

And your term "Israel" will have no practical, historical meaning, again?

Of course it does. It always has. Jewish monotheism is grounded in the history of Israel and the early church.

Why was Paul stoned, beaten and hated by the Jews, then?

He was stoned, beaten and hated by unbelieving Jews, not by believing Jews.

 

[HealthyShape]

Of course it does. It always has. Jewish monotheism is grounded in the history of Israel and the early church.

The history of Israel was terrible. Just read the Old Testament. The history of Judah was a bit better, but not ideal either.

He was stoned, beaten and hated by unbelieving Jews, not by believing Jews.

So, now you equal Israel with Christians, only? Unbelieving Jews are not Israel?

 

[Matthias]

Were there any Christians - by which I mean trinitarians only - living in Old Testament days?

There were not. The Jews were not trinitarians.

Moses the trinitarian is a fiction.

Moses the Jewish monotheist is a fact.

 

[Matthias]

The history of Israel was terrible. Just read the Old Testament. The history of Judah was a bit better, but not ideal either.

The history of Israel also contains good. The Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible. The Bible of Jewish monotheists. It contains the scriptures which Jesus and the apostles had access to.

So, now you equal Israel with Christians, only?

No. I posted that there were no Christians in Old Testament days.

Unbelieving Jews are not Israel?

Unbelieving Jews are Israel. Believing Jews are the Israel of God.