Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming

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marks

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If the Thessalonian Church was told that Christ had already come out in the wilderness somewhere, with a gathering of believers present with him, it would cause some to go and investigate, and perhaps join the cult.
The rapture doctrine I hold is that those who are in Christ are removed from earth. I don't actually know anyone who thinks we will be moved to a different place on the earth.
I'd like to know what your supposed "inconsistencies" were with either the PreWrath or the Postrib position?
One of the most notable, to me, is, any POV of a gathering that combines the church and Israel being gathered together contradicts Jesus' Olivette prophecy, which brings us back to the OP. The church fits neither gathering. Nor does it fit the sheep/goats gathering.

Just to mention . . . I've got a lot going on today suddenly, I'm hoping to give your post another read, and a more thoughtful response.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Sure we do. They and we have been doing it ever since the "church in the wilderness" Acts 7:38.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.
Excellent post. Very well done. Many don't notice that the tribes listed in Revelation don't all match the tribes of Israel listed in the Old Testament. That can't be ignored. There is a reason for that, which you explained very well. And, as you pointed out, even the order of the tribes is different in Revelation than in the Old Testament. That also has to be taken into consideration since that was clearly done that way for a reason.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The Bible tells us who these are, I'm going with that.

Much love!
Yes, but do you have no interest in taking a closer look at the text to make sure it's telling us what you think it's telling us? What is your explanation for the tribes listed in Revelation 7 being different than the tribes listed in the Old Testament? As covenantee pointed out, Revelation 7 replaces Dan and Ephraim with Levi and Joseph. Don't you think you should consider why that is the case?
 
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marks

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Yes, but do you have no interest
Just to give a quick answer here . . . I have no interest in discussing Scripture with those who don't believe it. I know you think you do, but it's all, This actually means that, and that actually means this other thing, and that part is all symbols, and here is what they all mean, and that part doesn't matter anymore, and on and on it goes. That's simply a disbelief in Scripture, and a vivid imagination to go with all your non-Scriptural doctrines.

I have no interest in that.

Why sift through a page of sophistry expaining why we shouldn't believe the words we read? Better to believe them.

Much love!
 
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marks

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As covenantee pointed out, Revelation 7 replaces Dan and Ephraim with Levi and Joseph. Don't you think you should consider why that is the case?
You don't even think they are the tribes of Israel to begin with. So again I say, why? I've looked at these things, but like I said, you don't believe the words you read, you substitute other meanings as if other words were written. That's not Bible study.

Much love!
 

covenantee

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Just to give a quick answer here . . . I have no interest in discussing Scripture with those who don't believe it. I know you think you do, but it's all, This actually means that, and that actually means this other thing, and that part is all symbols, and here is what they all mean, and that part doesn't matter anymore, and on and on it goes. That's simply a disbelief in Scripture, and a vivid imagination to go with all your non-Scriptural doctrines.

I have no interest in that.

Why sift through a page of sophistry expaining why we shouldn't believe the words we read? Better to believe them.

Much love!
You have no interest in that which extols and glorifies Christ and His Church.

So just leave it for those who do.
 

marks

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Steering back to the topic . . .

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

The fact that the nations are judged righteous or wicked based on their works shows a new dispensation. Those "in Christ" are judged righteous being baptized into Jesus Christ, so again, they do not fit here.

Much love!
 
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Randy Kluth

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The rapture doctrine I hold is that those who are in Christ are removed from earth. I don't actually know anyone who thinks we will be moved to a different place on the earth.
I understand the confusion here. I was referring to Jesus' comment in his Olivet Discourse in which he warned there would be false Christs *on the earth* who claimed to be the Coming of the Messiah. His Coming was not then viewed as a Rapture of the Faithful to Heaven, but rather, in the context of an earthly cult claiming that Christ has revealed himself among them.

This is the corrupted form of Messiah's Coming that is able to deceive even believers. And that's what I think Paul was referring to. It is an appearance of a False Christ in the Wilderness or some other place *on earth.* That is where the deception would come from, according to Jesus.

Matt 24.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


Please notice the contrast Jesus makes between False Christs appearing to his disciples *on the earth* and Christ's view of his 2nd Coming and revelation *from heaven.* So, the believers in Thessalonica were not necessarily expecting a Rapture to heaven, but may have been vulnerable to some earthly appearance of someone who claimed to be Messiah and had a large following, indicating he may be the real deal.

Paul's argument was not just that the real Christ would come from heaven, but more, that when he comes it will be *after* Antichrist and his deceptions. So, he was warning the Thessalonians not to be deceived by false Christs and wait until Christ comes from heaven to finish them off.
One of the most notable, to me, is, any POV of a gathering that combines the church and Israel being gathered together contradicts Jesus' Olivette prophecy, which brings us back to the OP. The church fits neither gathering. Nor does it fit the sheep/goats gathering.

Just to mention . . . I've got a lot going on today suddenly, I'm hoping to give your post another read, and a more thoughtful response.

Much love!
No problem. I'm curious, later, to learn why you think the Rapture of Jewish believers and Gentile believers into immortality contradicts the conversion of Jews on earth to Christ?
 

Davy

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One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You OMITTED the Matthew 24:29 verse that goes with the above two verses, which is Jesus declaring His future coming AFTER... the tribulation.



When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

That's not Biblical either.

When Jesus returns, both houses of Israel indeed will be joined back together per Ezekiel 37, back to the holy land of promise into one nation again.

But on that same... day, Christ Jesus and His faithful Church will be gathered to JERUSALEM on earth to reign over ALL... nations. Ezekiel 44 reveals the Zadok (the Righteous, Christ's elect priests) only will be allowed to approach Christ at His table and serve Him. The other priests who fell away when Israel went astray will NOT be allowed to approach Jesus at that time, but will be assigned the menial duties of that future 1,000 years temple, as a punishment.
 

marks

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But on that same... day, Christ Jesus and His faithful Church will be gathered to JERUSALEM on earth to reign over ALL...
The body of Christ will be gathered to Jesus before that time. We know the body of Christ is not included in these post tribulation gatherings, for the reasons given in this thread.

Much love!
 

Scott Downey

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The body of Christ will be gathered to Jesus before that time. We know the body of Christ is not included in these post tribulation gatherings, for the reasons given in this thread.

Much love!
No, we don't know that, all you can say is you believe that.
Where in Revelation is the rapture?

Revelation is a series of visions, not entirely in ordered time.

Rev 14, to me, describes the rapture

The Lamb and the 144,000​

1 Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, [b]having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no [d]deceit, for they are without fault [e]before the throne of God.

The Proclamations of Three Angels​

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

 

Scott Downey

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Notice the harvest in Rev 14, fully aligns with the harvest Jesus taught in the gospels.
With the just and unjust harvested, basically at the same time
That 144,000 are not Jewish evangelists, they are the people of God redeemed from the world forever with the Lord Jesus.
To me that signals the fullness of perfection of their elect number, as in the elect obtain salvation while the rest are hardened.

They are sealed for salvation.
 
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marks

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Rev 14, to me, describes the rapture

The Lamb and the 144,000​

1 Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, [b]having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no [d]deceit, for they are without fault [e]before the throne of God.
These are 144,000 Jews, that is, if you believe what the text says. That would not encompass "the dead and the remaining alive in Christ"

I know some say, "these are virgins" means they are the chaste bride of Christ. But the text itself says these are virgin Jewish males. So why would we not believe that?

Much love!
 

Scott Downey

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These are 144,000 Jews, that is, if you believe what the text says. That would not encompass "the dead and the remaining alive in Christ"

I know some say, "these are virgins" means they are the chaste bride of Christ. But the text itself says these are virgin Jewish males. So why would we not believe that?

Much love!
Their number is symbolic of all the saved persons in Christ, including women!

Galatians 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God views saved women as 'sons'
And as 'brothers'
And also as Abraham's seed

Hebrews 2

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Just to give a quick answer here . . . I have no interest in discussing Scripture with those who don't believe it.
Same here. So, it's a good thing I believe it. I would not accuse you of not believing it, but you just like to be rude like that for no reason.

I know you think you do, but it's all, This actually means that, and that actually means this other thing, and that part is all symbols, and here is what they all mean, and that part doesn't matter anymore, and on and on it goes.
LOL. You talk as if the entire Bible is literal text. You know it's not. So, yes, sometimes, we have to discern whether the text is literal, symbolic, poetic, Apocalyptic, hyperbolic and so on. What is wrong with that? It's silly to act like everything is literal when everyone knows that is not the case. Your hyperliteral method of interpretations leads you to think that Matthew 25:31-46 has something to do with Gentiles either inheriting eternal life or being cast into everlasting fire on the basis of how they treated Israel. A concept that is not taught anywhere in scripture. One's eternal destiny is based on whether or not they had faith, not whether or not they supported Israel.

That's simply a disbelief in Scripture, and a vivid imagination to go with all your non-Scriptural doctrines.
You are being foolish. To say that someone is not believing in scripture just because they don't take the same hyper-literal approach as you do is utter nonsense. If you think your doctrines are Scriptural you should be able to defend your doctrines, but you can't do it. Any time your doctrine is challenged you whine about the way someone is talking (despite your rude accusations that others are not believing scripture) and you run away and don't bother addressing any challenges to your doctrine. Why are you even here if you're not willing to address other's points? All you seem capable of doing is falsely accusing others of not believing in scripture just because they disagree with you, which is just plain stupid.

I have no interest in that.

Why sift through a page of sophistry expaining why we shouldn't believe the words we read? Better to believe them.
Do you believe the words of the following scriptures which show that the heavens and earth will be burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, bringing "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape"?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [a]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Much love!
You're not showing much love when you accuse others of not believing in scripture.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The body of Christ will be gathered to Jesus before that time. We know the body of Christ is not included in these post tribulation gatherings, for the reasons given in this thread.

Much love!
2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Do you believe that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is the day that the body of Christ is gathered to Jesus? That sure seems like a description of that day to me.
 

David in NJ

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One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Much love!
Two Gatherings is a FALSEHOOD/serpent speak used to support the falsehood of pre-trib to support each other

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming,
another falsehood

3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


@marks = there does not exist in the ENTIRE Holy Scriptures 3 Comings of the LORD Jesus Christ

From Genesis to Revelation there are only TWO Prophesied Comings of CHRIST

The error of pre-trib rapture has been JUDGED and NULLIFIED by TRUTH = the words of Christ, the Apostles and the OT Prophets

Hebrews 9:28
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a SECOND Time/Coming, apart from sin, for salvation.


@marks = Change direction from speaking against CHRIST, the Apostles and the Prophets
 
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Scott Downey

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For example, Revelation 14 begins with a vision of the elect of God with God's name written on their foreheads. That ends at v5
1 Then I looked, and behold

A new vision in verse 6, 'Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, ', so begins another scene, another vision, ends at v13

A new vision in verse 14 'Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

Then the visions here are ended.
A series of three visions. And honestly not related to each other.
All chapter and verse numbers are artificial to the text, add centuries later.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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These are 144,000 Jews, that is, if you believe what the text says.
Deuteronomy 7:9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

This text says that God "keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments". So, do you believe what the text says or is the text not meant to be taken literally as if God would keep His covenant with a thousand generations, but not with the thousand and first generation and beyond?

That would not encompass "the dead and the remaining alive in Christ"

I know some say, "these are virgins" means they are the chaste bride of Christ. But the text itself says these are virgin Jewish males. So why would we not believe that?
Why do you always assume everything is literal? Especially in a book like Revelation? There is text in Revelation that says there is a dragon with seven heads and ten horns and also a beast with seven heads and ten horns. So, since "the text says" that, does that mean we should take it literally? Why would virgin Jewish males be singled out from everyone else? NT scripture repeatedly says there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ and Galatians 3:28 says there is neither male nor female in Christ. Why would the book of Revelation be different than the rest of the NT?

2 Corinthians 11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

What is the reason you would not relate the 144,000 virgins to this passage? Clearly, scripture does teach about Christ being the bridegroom and husband of those who belong to Him and this passage talks about spiritually being "a chaste virgin to Christ". I don't see any reason why the 144,000 virgins should be understood in a physical, sexual context rather than in a spiritual context. But, since I take it in a spiritual context instead of a physical context you will accuse me of not believing the scripture.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You don't even think they are the tribes of Israel to begin with. So again I say, why? I've looked at these things, but like I said, you don't believe the words you read, you substitute other meanings as if other words were written. That's not Bible study.
Another foolish response from you. You are not addressing the point. Why are you afraid to address any challenges to your view? Don't tell me I don't believe the words I read! That is foolish nonsense! I believe them every bit as much as you do. You can't just accuse someone of not believing what they read every time they disagree with one of your interpretations. That's very childish and foolish of you. You say you've "looked at these things". And? What did you discover? Can you explain why the list of tribes in Revelation differs from the list of tribes in the Old Testament? How about being an adult and addressing the points instead of responding with these childish insults where you claim someone doesn't believe the words they read?
 
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