What is your spiritual understanding, if you have any, of the darkness that covered the face of the deep?
Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man
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What is your spiritual understanding, if you have any, of the darkness that covered the face of the deep?
If Satan was a created angel of God who became Satan through disobedience, why, when speaking of His angels does God say they are SENT, not CREATED, they are ALL ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
The prophets were not describing a fallen angel of God who became Satan! They are instructed by God to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon, a man, and a lamentation against king of Tyrus, a man.
Isaiah 14:4 (KJV) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
"Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction."
In saying this you show you understand the words of Ezekiel were directed toward a man who was under the power of Satan. The lamentation upon Tyrus. who I agree was of his father the Devil, but the lamentation is NOT directed simultaneously to Satan. Why would the prophet write of Satan, saying "Thou wast perfect in thy ways"? How do you reconcile that with "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." Satan, a covering cherub??? A cherub is defined as an imaginary figure.
Ezekiel 28:13-19 (KJV) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
These two passages have already been exhaustively explained in this thread, yet you continue to argue against the truth, clinging so tightly to this fiction, mythology, legend that came of Old and has been perpetuated throughout the ages by those who would rather cling to falsehood, forcing contradiction and confusion into the Word apparently without concern.
As usual lately, you totally avoid the arguments. You have to. This is a classic sign that someone is expounding error. You are acting like a Premil now. Your theology is blatantly wrong. I refer you back to my avoided post. It totally negates your post.
Satan desires to have you! He has already filled you with such pride that you would rather continue to promote myths from old and encourage others to also rather than admit that your doctrine is WRONG! You've refused to address every argument put forward and instead make false accusations against every verse and person presented that proves you are clinging like those of Old to doctrine of Old, supporting and defending a lie. As far as I'm concerned you can continue to stay in your stubbornness until the Lord softens your hard heartedness and makes your eyes to see! The time is long past dusting off the dust for me and moving on!
What? Are you serious? I am done with you and your false accusations.
I have addressed this subject in real detail. The evidence is there for all to see.
You have clearly no rebuttal. You have nothing to bring to the table. You are fudging every question. The reality is: you have no answer to the truth. That is why you have become so embittered, accusatory, belittling and frustrated. TS has left you holding the baby.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
But, that included posts that he made where he promoted his belief that there are no such thing as spirit beings called angels and demons. Why would you like or love those posts? You don't want to encourage him to promote that belief, do you?
I have no idea what you were intending to say here. You often have a hard time staying on topic. What I'm talking about is TS's denial of the existence of angels and demons. You disagree with him on that, yet you still like posts of his where he expressed that belief.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Please be reasonable about this. It does not seem like you are actually reading my posts carefully at all because you continue to avoid addressing my points. I have pointed out to you at least a few times now that "the angels that sinned" referenced in 2 Peter 2:4 are contrasted with the ungodly of Noah's day and the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. You are not understanding that Peter gave 3 different examples of those who rebelled against God and were punished. One example is in verse 4, one in verse 5 and one in verse 6.
Look at the text carefully.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
If verse 4 is referring to the ungodly of Noah's day, then that would make verse 5 redundant and pointless. In verse 4 Peter refers to "the angels who sinned" and talks about them being cast down to hell (Tartarus) while being reserved for judgment. In verse 5 Peter then indicates that God also "did not spare the ancient world...of the ungodly" in Noah's day. In verse 5 Peter was not giving more info about "the angels who sinned" and were reserved for judgment, he was giving another example of God's judgment and punishment. Then in verse 6 he gave another example of God's judgment and punishment by referencing the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. So, you can't say that verse 4 applies to the ungodly of Noah's day. No, verse 5 does. Peter contrasts "the angels who sinned" with the ungodly of Noah's day and the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. That's three different groups who are all condemned and will all be punished on judgment day.
Beyond all of this, I have not seen any valid argument from you to explain how it can be that Satan and demons were always evil or were intended to be evil. Clearly, God created all things, so that would include Satan and demons. But, scripture says that everything God created was very good. Your doctrine contradicts that because it indicates that God created Satan and demons to be evil. No, everything God created was very good, including Satan and demons. The only way to be consistent with the fact that everything God created was very good is to conclude that Satan and demons were also once very good, but chose to rebel against God and they fell away from God as a result.
Genesis 1:31 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Do you agree that everything God had made included Satan and demons? Do you think it would say God made Satan and demons very good if they were actually not very good at all, but evil instead?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
To have spiritual understanding requires the ability to differentiate between literal and figurative text and between physical and spiritual things.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
There was literal, physical darkness on the face of the deep and then God created physical light that literally shined into the literal darkness. The references to darkness and light in that passage are in relation to the creating of the heavens and the earth. I'm sure you would agree that it's talking about the literal heavens and the literal, physical planet earth there in Genesis 1. Do you think it's talking about God creating spiritual light there or physical light that shined into the physical darkness that allowed the things that He was creating to be physically visible?
In Revelation the waters are shown as peoples, and so perhaps people (for exampe here as a nation) could be void of counsel
Deut 32:38 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them
Could also be used here, in the sense of the whole earth being void or without understanding, in its own beginning
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Since Paul borrows from here, where God said, "Let there be light" (as far as the darkness goes) to shine in our hearts
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts,
to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Who is the light of the world, who lighteth every man
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
As in water
Prov 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.
And the beholding "as in a glass"
2 Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
You can roll that around a few ways and see spiritual comparisons in these things, Paul used the same that way.
Deut 32:38 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them
Could also be used here, in the sense of the whole earth being void or without understanding, in its own beginning
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Since Paul borrows from here, where God said, "Let there be light" (as far as the darkness goes) to shine in our hearts
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts,
to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Who is the light of the world, who lighteth every man
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
As in water
Prov 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.
And the beholding "as in a glass"
2 Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
You can roll that around a few ways and see spiritual comparisons in these things, Paul used the same that way.
The messengers that sinned are those whom God calls "sons of God" that lived in earlier days of Adam & Eve, the days of Seth when man began to call upon the name of the Lord. They are sons of God because they were to be the Light of the world, those who were to show forth the righteousness of God. For a time, these sons of God, living in the days when Adam's son, Seth, had a son named Enos faithfully called upon the name of the Lord.
But like Eve, their hearts turned to things of the world, and they lusted after the daughters of men. These daughters would be those in unbelief, those who like their father Cain were cast out, driven away from the sons of God so the blood of righteousness would not become polluted with the blood of unbelief. But by the time we get to the days/time of Noah, these sons of God had not kept covenant with God, but went after this strange ungodly blood line, and corrupted themselves along with the entire human race living at that time. The sons of God had forsaken their place/home/habitation with God turning instead to this world and all that it promised would fulfill their lusts of the flesh.
Not only have the sons of God in the days of the sons of Adam not been spared the Judgment Day to come, neither is the world in unbelief alive in the days of Noah when the flood waters came upon the whole earth. There are many years separating the days of Adam to the days of Noah, where man lived and died before the flood waters came upon the earth. The time between Adam and Seth alone is 130 years. And all the days of Adam were 930 years. (See Genealogy Gen 5 & Lu 3.)
When God says all that He created was "very good" did He create the darkness that was upon the face of the deep? Or did He invade the darkness with His Light? If He only invaded the darkness without overcoming the darkness, why? When God spoke His light into the darkness, why wasn't the darkness altogether abolished, since the plan of God was to create life to fill the whole earth?
The point is not whether or not God created the darkness, but what is the spiritual significance of the darkness?
Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
There is no indication anywhere I am aware of where God created the spirit realm of angels and demons, but I will concede that point. All we have is the darkness, as I believe to be a metaphor for death and evil, the place where Satan and his demonic spirits resided at creation as well as now. And God does not say His spirit messengers called angels were created, rather He says they are spirits SENT to minister to the heirs of salvation. Is the Light through the Spirit of God a metaphor also for the dwelling place of spirits/angels of God even from the beginning?
Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
God says ALL not some of His angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation. But of Satan it is written is a liar and murderer from the beginning.
John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If Satan was created an angel of God, and became Satan of his free will when he disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered. I will not believe Satan is a fallen angel unless I can be shown from the Word of God and not from myths and legends about devils/demons from man of Old that has been passed down for many generations and continues to be perpetrated (indefinitely preserved) to this day!
Yes, I doubt any of us would argue the Light that invaded the darkness is the Light brought through the Spirit of God. What about the darkness? It was there, did God create it, perhaps, but that's not really the question. Darkness throughout Scripture is used as a metaphor for the habitation of the Devil, evil, place of the dead. My query is that just as the Spirit of Christ has always eternally existed from before the foundation of the world, is it logical to believe that the spirit(s) of darkness existed then also?
Is this why the serpent was more cunning and crafty in a bad way, then all the beasts that God created? Did God use this evil spirit for mankind to experience good and evil, senses that must be experienced to be understood? Remember before they disobeyed God, man had no knowledge of good or evil.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You seem to have changed your belief about who 2 Peter 2:4 applies to. It seems that instead of claiming that it applies to the ungodly of the days of Noah, as you claimed before, you're now saying it applies to those who lived before that time because you said it applies to "those whom God calls "sons of God" that lived in earlier days of Adam & Eve, the days of Seth when man began to call upon the name of the Lord.". So, does this mean you are acknowledging my point that "the angels who sinned" in verse 4 are separate from the ungodly of Noah's day referenced in verse 5? I believe that is clearly the case. But, there is no indication in verse 4 that "the angels who sinned" apply to "those whom God calls "sons of God" that lived in earlier days of Adam & Eve, the days of Seth when man began to call upon the name of the Lord". If that was the case, why wouldn't Peter have said so similarly to how he specified which people he was talking about in verse 5 (the ungodly of Noah's day) and in verse 6 (the ungodly in Sodom and Gomorrah)?
Instead, he did not specify any details about "the angels who sinned" in terms of what time period they lived in, what city or area they lived in or anything like that. I believe the reason for that is because he is not referring to human beings, but rather to angels. Just like the text says. I agree with the English translators on this one. And, as far as I know, all of the English translations translate the word as "angels" in that verse (2 Peter 2:4).
Yes. Where else would it come from? Only God Himself has always existed. Why would you think that anyone or anything besides God Himself has always existed or came to be somehow apart from God creating it?
The light that it says God created was literal light that shone literal light into the literal darkness. We're talking about things related to the creation of the heavens and the earth here. If you start denying that it's not talking about literal, physical darkness and literal, physical light, you could end up denying that it's talking about the literal heavens and the literal, physical planet earth.
You are way off base here. Nowhere in Genesis 1 is it talking about the creation of spiritual darkness and spiritual light. It's talking about the creation of material things there such as the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the earth along with the things on the earth like the waters, the plants, the trees, the animals, human beings and so on.
That doesn't really matter. The point of Genesis 1 is not to talk about the origination of the spirit realm. The main point is to talk about the origination of earth and especially human beings. It's safe to say that God created the spirit realm of angels and demons since scripture is very clear about their existence. But, they had to have been created separately from the creation of the earth since they are not earthly beings. Regardless, it's not something that God felt we needed to know about in detail.
I completely disagree with you about that because the context of Genesis 1 is in relation to the creation of material things, not spiritual things. If you think that the darkness referenced in Genesis 1 is a metaphor for death and evil, then you must think that the light God created after which He separated the light from the darkness is metaphorical as well. But, there is no indication of that in the text at all. Also, spiritual light wasn't created. It has always existed because it comes from God who has always existed. But, Genesis 1 talks about a type of light that God created. That has to refer to literal, physical light that shined into the literal, physical darkness to make material things like the earth and all the things on the earth visible. The light being separated from the darkness is related directly to the creation of the evening and the morning, so that clearly relates to literal light and not metaphorical light.
I don't see your point here. How could they exist if God didn't create them? Only God has always existed.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You do understand that Hebrews 1:13-14 was written long after the angels would have been originally created, right? That verse is saying all of the angels existing at that time it was written were all ministering spirits. That passage says nothing one way or another about whether or not there are also other spirits who rebelled against God. It doesn't reference Satan or demons there at all. That passage does not say it's referring to all angels from the beginning of creation and it doesn't say that Satan and his demons were never formerly God's angels.
You are the one causing a contradiction by being so rigid in your interpretation of the verse. If someone said that Adam and Eve were sinners from the beginning, would anyone balk at that statement? No. They didn't literally sin from the moment they were created, but they first sinned soon after that to the point where someone could say they were sinners from the beginning even if that is not technically and literally the case.
Don't talk to me like this. You know me better than this. I do not ignore anything and you know it. Just because something might appear to be a contradiction in scripture does not make it so. There are several things that we could point to in scripture which can appear to be contradictions on the surface. That's why we need to dig deeper to find the truth sometimes.
I have answered it more than once already. You just don't like the answers you're given. That's not the same as your point going unanswered.
That is exactly what I'm doing. Honestly, I think your treatment of 2 Peter 2:4 is very biased and very far from convincing. But, it seems that you have taken a step in the right direction by realizing that verse is not talking about the ungodly of Noah's day (they are referenced in verse 5 instead).
LOL. I don't believe what I do because of myths and legends. Good grief. You know that I back up all my views with scripture. I study scripture for myself. Leave this nonsense about myths and legends out of the discussion. It doesn't apply to me.
No, I said what I meant and meant what I said! The ungodly are the ungodly humans no matter when they lived and died.
This is not true! The darkness was there and with darkness comes nothing, no life, no light. That's why God spoke His Light into the darkness and separated the darkness from the light.
God did not create the light! He spoke and the darkness divided with light He called Day and Night.
Address what I say, don't ask me to address what you think I said!
EXACTLY! At creation, God does NOT say He created the darkness, or the light that He simply spoke, and it was there. Just because you don't understand how the Bible consistently uses darkness as a metaphor for nothingness, or lifelessness, does not mean it cannot be! And also we find throughout Scripture that God IS LIGHT AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL!
Once again you show a lack of understanding about the spiritual realm. The Bible tells us that ALL that is created was created in the beginning when God created the HEAVEN and the earth and ALL that is in them!
Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Another thoughtful demonstration of how little understanding you have of the spiritual realm of God and invisible spirits. Btw saying something is metaphorically speaking of some literal thing, does not mean the literal thing does not exist!
LOL!
Keep trying to push the mythological doctrine of Satan as a fallen angel! Why didn't you address the FACT that ALL the angels of God are SPIRITS SENT FORTH TO MINISTER TO THE HEIRS OF SALVATION? When was this so-called fallen angel of God called Satan a ministering spirit of God sent forth to minister, not destroy, the heirs of salvation? From the beginning Satan is metaphorically depicted as a serpent who deceived mankind and caused death to enter into God's creation! But you want me to believe he wasn't always a bad boy! LOL.
If there is a contradiction found in the Bible, it is because man has forced an unbiblical opinion into the text! That's exactly why the mythological doctrine of Satan being a fallen angel has been forced upon the Word of God. Lacking understanding of the spiritual realm but needing to find an answer to explain both sin and death through sin.
You have still failed to answer the question without trying to spin the text to fit your preconceived opinion! How can Satan be a fallen angel of God who was GOOD and be a LIAR and MURDERER from the beginning also? If you would simply give the only answer possible, which is that this doctrine CANNOT BE TRUTH, according to the Bible! Rather than accept what is biblical doctrine, you instead speak slanderously and take statements out of context because you CANNOT dispute the Word of God so as usual you attack the messengers.
I believe it is your understanding of this passage that makes you biased! You must have angels cast into the pit to be held for judgment day to fit your unbiblical belief that Satan is a fallen angel of God! It's ridiculous! But apparently there is no hope of convincing you that the doctrine you cling to is myth, legend began of Old and passed down by men of Old who had very little understanding of the spirit realm.
JLB
Well-Known Member
We need to clear the misconception about the misconception concerning born again Christians being oppressed by demons, and understand that sin is the door, the point of access through which demons have a legal right to gain access to us, to influence us in evil ways.
Possess no.
Oppress yes.
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18
If a born again ChristIan is keeping himself from sin, then the devil doesn’t have any legal right to touch him.
The Lord spoke to Cain -
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. Genesis 4:7
That’s why we are told to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.
Touch G680 -
- to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
- to touch
- of carnal intercourse with a woman or cohabitation
- of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
- to touch, assail anyone
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 1 Corinthians 10:20
Paul is warning these Christians at Corinth, not to have fellowship with demons.
When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Matthew 12:43-44
- I will return to my house from which I came.
A house has a door, a point of access. Demons see humans as a house, a dwelling place for rest.
- When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest
When we are rebellious and sin, we have opened the door to the enemy. If we are stubborn and refuse to repent and turn away from sinful behavior we will be influenced in negative ways by them and it will only get worse over time.
The best thing for born again Christians to do is start learning to walk according to Spirit, in which we live our lives in alignment with the Holy Spirit. If we sin, then we need to quickly confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What you had said before is that you think "the angels who sinned" represent the ungodly of Noah's day. Yet, as I've shown you several times now, they are contrasted with the ungodly of Noah's day as a separate example of a group that rebelled against God and will be punished on judgment day. Another group Peter referenced were the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. So, you're not understanding that Peter referenced 3 separate rebellious groups who God punishes (one in 2 Peter 2:4, one in verse 5 and one in verse 6).
Wow! You don't even realize that you're making darkness itself equal to God if you are claiming that it has always existed. Wrong! Only God Himself has always existed. You are terribly mistaken.
LOL! He most certainly did! How can you not discern something so obvious? This is truly unbelievable.
Genesis 1:4 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. [b]So the evening and the morning were the first day.
God said "Let there be light" because there previous was no light. It would make no sense for God to say "let there be light" if light was already there. And it's clearly talking about literal light and literal darkness because it's related directly to day and night.
LOL. That is exactly what I'm trying to do. If you're not being clear, that's not my fault. What you said indicated that the darkness is spiritual. Is that not correct?
LOL. It wasn't there before and then He spoke and it was there. That means He created it. Good grief.
Do you not believe in physical darkness? What in the world is going on here? The darkness and light are spoken of in relation to the literal day and literal night, so it clearly isn't referring to spiritual darkness and spiritual light. What are you going to come up with next, that it's not talking about the creation of the literal heavens and literal earth?
LOL! Says the person who denies clear scripture that says there were angels who sinned and were punished by God for it and will be judged for it on judgment day.
Of course. I didn't say otherwise. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem and are reading things that I'm not saying.
LOL! It wasn't there before and then it was there because He created it! Hello! And then you talk about darkness as a metaphor. So, is that what you're saying the darkness and light are referring to or not? Be clear about what you're saying for once! Do you believe the references to darkness and light in Genesis 1 are references to metaphorical darkness and light or to literal physical darkness and light? It's clearly the latter because it refers to them in reference to day and night.
LOL. Your insults mean less than nothing to me. You are showing little ability to back up your false belief with scripture. You are even resorting to denying clear scriptures like 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6.
LOL. What are you talking about? I never said you deny that literal light and darkness exist, but what I'm trying to discern is your understanding of whether you think the darkness and light referenced in Genesis 1 are literal light and darkness or not.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What is funny about what I said? Are you claiming that Hebrews 1:13-14 is referring back to the beginning of creation? Paul was speaking in the present tense there about the angels who were ministering spirits. He said at the time he was writing the angels ARE ministering spirits. He said nothing about whether any of them ever sinned in the past and fell away from God at any point. So, you can't use that passage to support your view. I should be laughing at you.
LOL. Are 2 Peter 2:4 and Judge 6 mythological? Scripture very clearly says there were angels who sinned and they are reserved for judgment. You are the only pushing myths! I have scripture on my side! You are forced to twist scripture after scripture after scripture to keep your false belief afloat!
I address every point, so stop your nonsense. All of God's angels now are spirits sent forth to minister, but that does not mean none of them sinned and rebelled against him long ago. You are trying to apply a present tense passage to the beginning of creation. Another example of how you have to twist scripture to fit your false belief.
Yes, because scripture very clearly says that everything God created was very good. You can't get around that! Obviously, Satan was created. You say he was evil from the beginning of creation, but that can't be because all God created was very good! Why do you deny things like this? You say some of what God created was evil, but scripture says ALL that He created was very good. You do NOT have scripture on your side! You are being very foolish and stubborn about this!
Genesis 1:31 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
What don't you understand about this verse? Why do you try to claim that God created some spirit beings like Satan and demons to be evil when scripture says EVERYTHING that He had made "was very good"?
YOU are the one lacking in understanding of the spirit real. YOU are the one denying CLEAR scripture like Genesis 1:31, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6.
When it comes to this particular topic you are the KING of spinning the text!
As I already explained to you, we could say that, in a sense, Adam and Eve were sinners from the beginning even though they didn't literally sin right from the moment they were created. It is similar with Satan. He didn't sin immediately upon being created, but it happened early on to the point where it can be said that He was a liar and murderer from the beginning. Again, scripture says everything God created was very good! Hello?! You do understand that Satan was created, right? You say he was created evil. No! Scripture says EVERYTHING God created was very good. You try to twist scripture to make it say otherwise in relation to Satan and demons.
You are hurling personal insults left and right, so stop being a hypocrite. I have scripture on my side and you don't when it comes to this topic. That is very clear.
That is what the scriptures clearly say! You have to change the text to fit your belief, but I don't!
You can't ever convince me that your false belief is true. That's for certain. YOU are the one with little understanding of the spirit realm, which is highly unfortunate.
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