Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming

[GRACE ambassador]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Precious friend, good work on this thread; I will respectfully disagree with half of this:
"we return all the way to earth with Jesus(?)", for a couple of Biblical Reasons:

Paul's teaching of "a Heavenly Outlook" In The Mystery, for The Body Of Christ:

...have a building ETERNAL in the Heavens..." (2 Corinthians 5:1 AV) = What? Not on earth?
...our house which is From Heaven..." (2 Corinthians 5:2 AV)

Are "Blessed With All spiritual blessings In
Heavenly Places In Christ!" (Ephesians 1:3 AV)

Christ Is Now Raised From the dead, And Set At The Right
Hand Of Majesty, In Heavenly Places! (Ephesians 1:20 AV)

God "Hath Raised us up together, And Made us Sit Together
In Heavenly Places In Christ Jesus!" ( Ephesians 2:6 AV)

"For our conversation ( Citizenship ) Is In Heaven; from Whence also
we look for The Saviour, The Lord Jesus Christ!" (Philippians 3:20 AV)

"For The Hope Which Is Laid Up For you In Heaven, Whereof ye heard
before in The Word Of The Truth Of The Gospel! ( Colossians 1:5 AV)

And The Lord Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will
Preserve me unto His Heavenly kingdom: to Whom be Glory
for ever and ever. Amen. (2 Timothy 4:18 AV)

In keeping with 1), I believe this is Confirmation from the Prophesied Second Coming Of Christ:

2) From: God's Great GRACE Departure!:

a) In Prophecy:​

​

...(3) CHRIST Is { Leaving Heaven } Coming With, ( which Were In Heaven! ),​

His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15 AV)​

​

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With { Only } One army *, “All Of His holy angels,”​

In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…​

(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:19 AV)...​

b) In The Mystery, After our Bema Seat Judgment, In Heaven: ​

​

...(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as​

A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27 AV)​

​

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and​

unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,​

In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!​

(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;​

1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 AV)...​

​

Thus, seems to me the Best Biblical Conclusion Is:

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST Must "have been​

assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning!, eh?​

-----------
Precious friend, @marks:

As Always: Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Looking forward to meeting you There [ Heaven ] or "in the air" ♫ ↑

Amen.

 

[marks]

In keeping with 1), I believe this is Confirmation from the Prophesied Second Coming Of Christ:

2) From: God's Great GRACE Departure!:

a) In Prophecy:...(3) CHRIST Is { Leaving Heaven } Coming With, ( which Were In Heaven! ),His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15 AV)(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With { Only } One army *, “All Of His holy angels,”In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:19 AV)...
b) In The Mystery, After our Bema Seat Judgment, In Heaven: ...(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented asA Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27 AV)(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy andunblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 AV)...Thus, seems to me the Best Biblical Conclusion Is:

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST Must "have beenassigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning!, eh?

This is worthy of consideration.

One thing I think of in relation to this,

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will go where He goes.

Then there is also this:

Revelation 7:14-15 KJV
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Which speaks more towards your understanding.

Have you written on the body of Christ during the millennium?

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Have you written on the body of Christ during the millennium?

I have read through Scriptures a lot of years and somewhat reviewed the prophecies concerning the
millennium, but haven't written anything. I try to focus most of my attention on What God Is Doing
During This Current Age Of Grace in order to help myself/others "prepare" Properly for:

God's Great GRACE Departure and the following Bema Seat Judgment.​

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will go where He goes.

Reminds me of His Omnipresence While on earth? - ie:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down​

from heaven, Even The Son of man Which is in heaven." (John 3:13 AV)​

+

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things In ​

Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even In Him" (Ephesians 1:10 AV)​

Grace And Peace!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hear the Words of Jesus:

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You will either believe or disbelieve His prophecy.

I believe it just as much as you do, so stop this foolish talk. I just interpret it differently than you. You are being very foolish when you try to accuse others of not believing scripture. That isn't the issue. That is very insulting to people like me and others who are trying just as much as you are to interpret scripture accurately. To be mistaken about what scripture is saying is one thing, but to purposely not believe what it says is another thing altogether and that is what you are accusing me of doing. Stop that foolish nonsense.

If you disbelieve, you will re-write it into something else that Jesus did not say. That seems to be your pattern.

More foolish talk from you. Why are you willing to interpret that passage in a way that contradicts many other passages? Do you not care if you cause contradictions in scripture? Do you understand that faith without works is dead? Our works reflect our faith. So, in that passage Jesus is using everyone's works to show whether they truly had faith or not. You are blatantly contradicting many scriptures when you try to claim that salvation will ever be based on works. Why would it ever be when it never has been? You're not even thinking here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul compared the church to a bride, however, here it is, what you claim is not there.

Ephesians 5:25-33 KJV
25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28) So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33) Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

We are not called Jesus' wife, we are identified as His body. This is what the Bible says.

Much love!

LOL. Did you ignore verses 31 and 32 there where Paul said in relation to what he said about a husband being joined unto his wife that "I speak concerning Christ and the church"? We are both His body and His bride. To act like we can only be one or the other is laughable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So then you eschew Biblical authority?

LOL! Of course not. You debate like a child.

You won't be happy unless you get to add to what it says?

Of course not. Any other dumb questions?

You think you cannot simply except the propositional statements of narrative prophecy? Then how is it you believe other propositional statements of narrative prophecies? There is an inconsistency here.

You have nothing to offer but word salad like this. You acted as if the 24 elders must be taken literally and then I showed a passage that talks about Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes. So, where is YOUR consistency? I'm sure you do not try to say that Jesus literally has 7 horns and 7 eyes.

Do you accept this as written:

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Will this happen as written? Why or why not?

LOL. What a dumb question. When Revelation talks about things related to a beast with seven heads and ten horns will that all happen as written? Will a literal beast with a literal seven heads and ten horns make war with the saints?

Matthew 24:29-30 most certainly will be fulfilled. You are pre-trib, so YOU are the one who doesn't accept what is written there. That passage clearly supports post-trib.

Much love!

Not coming from you.

 

[marks]

So, in that passage Jesus is using everyone's works to show whether they truly had faith or not.

Because of this statement that you apply universally, you disregard Jesus' words, thinking "He must not really mean what He says, it simply MUST be something else." And then you go on it imagine what it is Jesus "must" have meant. Clearly not what He said!! Afterall, such a thing simply cannot be!

This to me does not describe believe in Scripture.

Matthew 25:34-35 KJV
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Inherit the kingdom because I was hungry, and you fed Me. But you don't believe this is true.

This is a narrative prophecy exactly like what Jesus prophesied a few minutes earlier.

You believe this:

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But you don't believe this:

Matthew 25:31-35 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

So tell me again . . . who is being foolish?

Much love!

 

[marks]

LOL! Of course not. You debate like a child.


Of course not. Any other dumb questions?


You have nothing to offer but word salad like this.

Like always . . . sigh!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ridicule, mock, whatever, do you think I am affected by your poor speech?

When you say ridiculous thing, I will mock them because that's what the comments deserve. I couldn't care less if you are affected by it or not. Just stop saying ridiculous things. Stop saying things as if all scripture is literal when you know that's not the case.

And I saw a great sign in the heavens . . .

So you see, the Bible identifies when there is a symbol.

. . . that ancient serpent, the devil, Satan . . .

And the Bible identifies the meaning of the symbol.

And in these way, we have Godly authority to interpret accordingly.

Why do you act as if symbols are always explained? No, not always.

Revelation 5:6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

If you think symbols are always explained, then tell me what "the seven horns" of the Lamb and the "seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth" represent.

When you claim the 144,000 are not actually 144,000 men from 12 tribes of Israel, you do not have such authority, it's just your unfounde opinion.

LOL. And it's your opinion that it should be taken literally. Glad we have established that we're sharing our opinions here. Well done.

When you read the Bible for what is says, you will reach certain conclusions, and they will be generally speaking the same conclusions as anyone who reads the Bible that same way.

LOL. Again, you say something ridiculous as if everything in the Bible is spelled out to us. If that was the case, then why did Paul write in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 that the deep things of God in His word must be spiritually discerned by way of the Holy Spirit? It's sad that you apparently rely completely on your own fallible human wisdom and think you don't need any discernment from the Holy Spirit to understand any of these things we're talking about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because of this statement that you apply universally, you disregard Jesus' words, thinking "He must not really mean what He says, it simply MUST be something else." And then you go on it imagine what it is Jesus "must" have meant. Clearly not what He said!! Afterall, such a thing simply cannot be!

This to me does not describe believe in Scripture.

Matthew 25:34-35 KJV
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Inherit the kingdom because I was hungry, and you fed Me. But you don't believe this is true.

This is a narrative prophecy exactly like what Jesus prophesied a few minutes earlier.

You believe this:

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But you don't believe this:

Matthew 25:31-35 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

So tell me again . . . who is being foolish?

Much love!

Don't tell me what I believe or don't believe. I believe ALL of scripture no matter what you say. To answer your question, YOU are being foolish. Repeatedly. You are foolishly willing to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 in such a way that contradicts MANY other scriptures. That is incredibly foolish.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't see how any of this addresses my question to you.

And, In Christ, neither Greek nor Jew. What would you say is the significance of that fact, neither Greek nor Jew? This is not just flowery speech of a nice warm kumbuya, he actually means something here. Neither Greek, nor Jew. What is the significance?

Much love!

Romans 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Sonship Through the Spirit​

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All this promoting the flesh is death, as for those in Christ there is no male nor female, no Jew nor Greek.
And when Christ comes back their wont be any ungodly left on the earth to hang around, He will make a quick end of them and all evil things.

You are keen on keeping those fleshly distinctions ongoing as if they have a future, as in a coming Jewish kingdom of the flesh, that 1000 year earthly reign on David's throne of Christ when you do not understand that this world and it's flesh are passing away when Christ returns.

When Christ returns a second time, we shall all be changed, and Christ said heaven and earth shall pass away.
When Christ returns it is the resurrection and the judgement.

Revelation 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

1. Matthew 5:18
   For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 24:35
   Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Mark 13:31
   Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Luke 16:17
   And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Luke 21:33
   Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
6. 2 Peter 3:10
   

   The Day of the Lord​

   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
7. Revelation 21:1
   

   All Things Made New​

   Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

 

[marks]

My suggestion anyone who thinks that a plainly stated narrative prophecy simply cannot mean what it says because of how you understand other parts of the Bible, is to rethink this so you are able to interpret all passages in harmony, but without negating any of them.

You negate a prophecy when you declare it can't mean what it says, and then supply a meaning contrary to the words of the prophecy.

This shows a disbelief in the words of that prophecy, as you think it cannot be fulfilled as stated.

Plainly stated narrative prophecies are like these:

Matthew 1:20-21 KJV
20) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 21:10-11 KJV
10) And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11) And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Matthew 24:27-31 KJV
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do we believe these will be fulfilled as written?

Matthew 25:31 KJV
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Do we believe this will be fulfilled as written?

Matthew 25:32-46 KJV
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do you believe this will be fulfille as written? Do do you disbelieve?

Ask yourself . . . why do you change the Bible instead of changing your mind?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are keen on

You make it sound like I have preferred doctrines. Why do you think that? I'm just showing what the Bible says. The only thing I prefer is truth. Reality.

Much love!

 

[marks]

as in a coming Jewish kingdom of the flesh,

Where have I said this, for instance? I don't think my posts are being carefully read. A fleshy Jewish kingdom?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Don't stop there.

There is neither Greek Nor Jew in Christ.

So who is this speaking of?

Romans 11:25-26 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ.

Who is Israel that will be saved?

There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ.

Who is Israel that will be saved?

Much love!

Only the spiritual remnant in Christ of physical Israel will be saved. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Scott Downey]

Where have I said this, for instance? I don't think my posts are being carefully read. A fleshy Jewish kingdom?

Much love!

All pre mills believe such a thing. An of this earthly reign of Christ ruling on an earthly throne of David with His people ruling over flesh and blood people on this earth for 1000 years, and it results in an eventual failure at it's end as evil multiplies all over the earth during that reign.

They cite OT prophesies that speak of a restored Jewish Kingdom.
They talk of Jewish evangelist's converting all Jews to Christ during that time, those 144,000 sealed of Jewish tribes.

 

[Scott Downey]

If you look at this here, you will see what I am saying!

Who will occupy the Millennial Kingdom? | GotQuestions.org

Who will occupy / populate the Millennial Kingdom? Who will be allowed to enter the 1000-year Millennial Kingdom of Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

This is not the truth, but this is widely believed.

 

[Scott Downey]

From that site "Those who occupy the kingdom with earthly bodies have survived the tribulation and can be subdivided into two groups: believing Gentiles and believing Jews."

So they do not believe this scripture here

Philippians 3:20-21​

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New King James Version​

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20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ephesians 4:25 KJV
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

I challenge you to accept what is written, in this way you will learn and grow.

I challenge you to rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding instead of your own fallible wisdom.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If everything was as spelled out in scripture as you think it is, then even the natural man would be able to understand all of it. But, Paul made it clear that is not the case because "the deep things of God", which he goes on to describe as "solid food" in 1 Cor 3:2, require spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit.

With that said, you don't take many scripture as written if "as written" means as written literally. Such as 2 Peter 3:10-12 where you don't except that the heavens and earth will be burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night. And 1 Thess 4:14-17, which is about "the coming of the Lord" that you deny is actually about the second coming of the Lord and is a separate event instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't stop there.

There is neither Greek Nor Jew in Christ.

Right. So, when it comes to what really matters, there is neither Jew nor Greek. You obviously don't understand that.

So who is this speaking of?

Romans 11:25-26 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ.

Who is Israel that will be saved?

In order to understand any part of Romans 11, you need to read all of Romans 9, 10 and 11 as one narrative. Paul had written this prior to that passage...

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Paul spoke of 2 Israels here. One consists of those who are physical descendants of Israel and Abraham. The other consists of "the children of God" who are "the children of the promise" and "are counted as the seed".

Who are the children of God and of the promise who are counted as the seed? Is that just a mystery or does scripture tell us that? It tells us.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Scripture is clear that the children of God are those who have faith in Christ and belong to Him and they are considered to be Abraham's seed in a spiritual sense and are the children of the promise. This shows that the Israel of which all are saved is the ones consisting of the children of God in Christ, which includes both Jew and Gentile believers because "there is neither Jew nor Greek" when it comes to God's people.

There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ.

Right. Which means there is neither Greek nor Jew among the children of God who are in the spiritual Israel of God.

Who is Israel that will be saved?

Spiritual Israel, of course. If you read Romans 9:27 and Romans 11:1-5, Paul talks about a remnant of national Israel being saved, not all of national Israel. Why would he go on to contradict himself in Romans 11:26 and say that all national Israel would be saved? He wouldn't have done that.

Your understanding of Romans 11:26 simply does not line up with what Paul wrote in Romans 9:27.

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.