How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Jack]

I don't think you're understanding their post.
The Word became flesh,Jesus.

He admits Jesus is God and then denies that Jesus is God. lol

"I don't disagree with Jesus as God.
I disagree with a pre-existent Jesus."

 

[Jack]

In answer to the OP, I repeat her what I said several months ago on this same thread.
The Trinity doctrine became established in the church through coercion from both church and state.

Which English Bibles don't confirm the Trinity?

 

[ProverbsInPink]

He admits Jesus is God and then denies that Jesus is God. lol

"I don't disagree with Jesus as God.
I disagree with a pre-existent Jesus."

And he's right.
Think about it.
The flesh and blood known as Jesus was The Word become man.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made”

It's right there. There was no other with God in the beginning.
The whole of John 1 text tells us God is The Word.
When the text in John one later says, and The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, we know that is referring to God becoming Jesus because we know God is that Word.

Which is why prophecy in the Old Testament tells us this is to occur in future because the virgin will bear a child into this world and His name shall be Immanuel. Meaning,God with us.

And sure enough in the New Testament we read the angel of God told Mary she was to bear a son and His name was to be Immanuel.

 

[Jack]

And he's right.
Think about it.
The flesh and blood known as Jesus was The Word become man.

I did think about it. How can Jesus be God and not be God???

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made”

It's right there. There was no other with God in the beginning.
The whole of John 1 text tells us God is The Word.
When the text in John one later says, and The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, we know that is referring to God becoming Jesus because we know God is that Word.

Which is why prophecy on the Old Testament tells us this is to occur in future because the virgin will bear a child into this world and His name shall be Immanuel. Meaning,God with us.

And sure enough in the New Testament we read the angel of God told Mary she was to bear a son and His name was to be Immanuel.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

I did think about it. How can Jesus be God and not be God???

The point being Jesus wasn't His Hebrew name. And being Yeshua,Immanuel, was begat upon Mary by God and that begotten Son was God The Word made flesh, there was no flesh called Jesus with The Word.
There was only God,ever.

Which is proof there is no triune God in Heaven. There's only God.

 

[Jack]

The point being Jesus wasn't His Hebrew name. And being Yeshua,Immanuel, was begat upon Mary by God and that begotten Son was God The Word made flesh, there was no flesh called Jesus with The Word.
There was only God,ever.

Which is proof there is no triune God in Heaven. There's only God.

That's not what stevie said. He said Jesus is God and Jesus isn't God. I'm not the only one who noticed his utter confusion.

 

[MonoBiblical]

So it's your word against most of our English Bibles.

Compared to Greek, English would be inadequate for the time and task.

 

[MonoBiblical]

In answer to the OP, I repeat her what I said several months ago on this same thread.
The Trinity doctrine became established in the church through coercion from both church and state.

I think that any true doctrine that comes to light doesn't need the power of the state to convince the church of its validity. Benjamin Franklin spoke on this wise...“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

Compulsion and persecution over the Trinity doctrine became significant after Christianity became intertwined with imperial power. The state actively enforced doctrinal conformity, and those who dissented from the Trinitarian view faced legal and social penalties, and sometimes violence, especially from the late 4th century onwards.

Destruction of Arian kingdoms the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were eventually destroyed or absorbed by forces loyal to the Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire. Historical accounts suggest that the Papacy and its allies, particularly Emperor Justinian, played a significant role in orchestrating military campaigns against these kingdoms, motivated in part by the desire to eliminate Arianism and establish religious unity under the Nicene Creed. The destruction off those kingdoms matches perfectly with the prophecy of Daniel regarding the example uprooting of 3 horns by the little horn...aka the papacy. The other 7 kingdoms were also originally Arian for the most part, but converted under pressure from the Catholic church, particularly through the threat of war from, for example, Clovis, King of the Franks, who was later known traditionally, as a result of his conversion, often referred to as the “first Catholic prince” and later acquired the honorary titles of “Most Christian King” and “Eldest Son of the Church” (“Rex Christianissimus” and “primogenitus Ecclesiae” in Latin).

In saying the above, I am not discussing the Trinity as a doctrine of faith. I'm merely providing historical context as to how and when it became "Orthodox".

One question that could be asked, is it necessary to believe the trinitarian doctrine as per the teaching of the creeds in order to be identified as a Christian, if one fully accepts and believes in the preexistence of Christ, His divinity, and the divinity and personality of the holy Spirit?

Most religions were backed by the state to some degree at the time. The literacy problem was worse.

 

[MonoBiblical]

What's the difference?

The three in the trinity are not the same existence.

 

[Brakelite]

Which English Bibles don't confirm the Trinity?

I don't know. What I do know is the KJV does affirm the preexistence of Christ, it affirms the divinity and deity of Christ, and also affirms the personality of the holy Spirit. Whether you want to call that a trinity is up to you. I choose not to, because the creeds, and the teachings of the churches whether they agree with me above, or not, often go either too far or fall short of biblical truth. The fact that the church, by that I mean the Catholic Church, had to resort to the state armies and inquisitions and wars and threats thereof to convince others that belief in a/the trinity as they perceive it is truth, tells me that the church of that time wasn't convinced that God would defend that truth but needed their help. That's cultic reasoning and coercion such as that has no place in the kingdom of God.

Why not teach what is in the Bible, not tradition, reason from there, and let God do the rest?

 

[Grailhunter]

A couple ways to know if a belief is false is someone of authority is saying you have to believe it. That proof becomes more prevalent as that “have to” becomes more forceful…..excommunication…. torture…. execution.

That is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church did with the One God formula for the Trinity. And they new it was a lie, the doctrine was produced to stop the unresolvable disagreements about the nature and character of Yahweh and Yeshua and who and what was the Holy Spirit. They could not come to agreement and Emperor Constantine insisted on one faith and one belief.

Then 1225 years later most of the Protestants adopted this Roman Catholic Church belief. A belief that skews the meaning of over a hundred scriptures. No assault has been as damaging to biblical understand as the one God formula.

Look at what is going on, “The proof is out there” There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations with differing beliefs and this is the one they try to insist on. The one God formula for the Trinity is a lie.

 

[Brakelite]

Most religions were backed by the state to some degree at the time. The literacy problem was worse.

I disagree. Only the Roman church required state support at that time. The Christian churches elsewhere that were not subject to the Roman bishop, remained independent. For example the Waldenses, and the Celtic church in Britain, until the kings of Britain, under the influence of power hungry greedy popes and prelates, brought war and violence against them.
As for the literacy level in those days, I think we underestimate the intelligence of those people. Wulfilas for example was not Catholic, and he evangelized the Goths. Even to translating the scriptures into their own language. If they couldn't read, they leaned.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which English Bibles don't confirm the Trinity?

The Greek and Hebrew Interlinear Bibles..... word for word translations where you can see how many times God's name was substituted in the OT for a mere title (almost 7000 times)..... it also shows how many times the "ho" is ignored when it precedes "theos" in NT Greek....only Jehovah is called "ho theos", Jesus is called "theos" which is translated uniformly as "God" with a capital "G" even if it is lacking the definite article (ho). The Greeks didn't know what to call a God with no name, so they called him "ho theos" ("THE God" of the Jews) Jesus is called "ho logos" (The Word)

A grammar lesson for you Jack.....Greek has no indefinite article ("a" or "an") any that you see in the NT was added by the translators....so because "theos" means "any reference to God, gods, goddesses and or divinities", according to the Concordance, anyone who is worshipped or has divine authority can rightly be called "theos". Jesus called the judges in Israel "gods" (theos) because they had God's authority. (John 10:31-36) Read that and see what Jesus called himself.

Satan is called "theos in 2 Cor 4:4....because he is the self-proclaimed "god of this world".

You really are out of your depth in any kind of deeper Bible discussion Jack, as your ignorance at times just confirms how much you don't know. Please do some actual research....

 

[shepherdsword]

"For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 2:5

The history of religion has consistently shown a decline from the originally revealed pure monotheism to various forms of polytheism. "Christianity," as it is popularly understood, has followed this same pattern. Both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible are clear and emphatic about the absolute oneness of God. When asked about the greatest commandment, Jesus responded in Mark 12:29, saying, "The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD." This was a direct reference to the words of Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4. This message of monotheism runs consistently throughout the Bible, with no mention of three gods from start to finish. However, modern "Christendom" has evolved into a belief in four gods—three good and one evil. In some parts of Christendom, such as the Roman Catholic Church, the belief system includes a "Mother of God" as a supreme deity, along with numerous demi-gods—one for each day of the year and more—all of which are mythical, man-made deities worshipped and prayed to.

I felt it was important to present this truth at the outset before exploring the historical development of the Trinity.

F2F

1 Tim 2:5 is a reference to (שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל‎ — Shema Yisrael) found in Duet 6:4-5

Dt 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

The word translated as "One" in this passage is the Hebrew word אחד" (echad). It is the same word used in Gen for what happens at marriage.

Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (echad) flesh.

It shows the concept of oneness contained in a plurality. The man and woman were two seperate people yet they are called "One" (echad) One of the great mysteries is how God divides things and then calls them one(echad)

 

[ProverbsInPink]

That's not what stevie said. He said Jesus is God and Jesus isn't God. I'm not the only one who noticed his utter confusion.

I don't think he's confused. Perhaps he didn't put his thoughts on the same words as I did but I think that's what he was hoping to convey

His name isn't Stevie.
You're not belittling St.SteVen with that tactic.

 

[Grailhunter]

For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 2:5
What does this scripture mean?
Does it mean that the mediator between Yahweh and men is a human....Christ Jesus? Is it calling Yeshua a human not a God? That is not true.
Yeshua explains the oneness concept and it is not the number one, it is unity.
Yeshua says Yahweh is His God. And refers to Yahweh as His Father or My Father in Heaven in 50 verses.
The Apostle often referred to Yahweh and God and Yeshua as Lord. Making it clear that they thought that Yahweh Almighty was distinctly unique superior to Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
Yeshua said that the Father is great than I.
I have an essay that has over a hundred scriptures that proves the one God formula wrong.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 2:5
What does this scripture mean?
Does it mean that the mediator between Yahweh and men is a human....Christ Jesus? Is it calling Yeshua a human not a God? That is not true.
Yeshua explains the oneness concept and it is not the number one, it is unity.
Yeshua says Yahweh is His God. And refers to Yahweh as His Father or My Father in Heaven in 50 verses.
The Apostle often referred to Yahweh and God and Yeshua as Lord. Making it clear that they thought that Yahweh Almighty was distinctly unique superior to Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
Yeshua said that the Father is great than I.
I have an essay that has over a hundred scriptures that proves the one God formula wrong.

No. You have an essay that twists scripture.
There's a difference.


All the actual scriptures that tell us God
Is one and Jesus was God in human form,nothing can be done to change that truth.

It's stunning that people work to revoke what is in God's word and twist their own ideas to fit in its place.

I've heard atheists say Christianity is the only religion that's bad at math. Because it insists 3 equals 1.

 

[Grailhunter]

No. You have an essay that twists scripture.
There's a difference.


All the actual scriptures that tell us God
Is one and Jesus was God in human form,nothing can be done to change that truth.

It's stunning that people work to revoke what is in God's word and twist their own ideas to fit in its place.

I've heard atheists say Christianity is the only religion that's bad at math. Because it insists 3 equals 1.

You are wrong in over a hundred ways.
If I was as simple minded as you I would think anyone that does not believe like I do is an atheist. But I am smarter than that. You have the right to believe a lie.
And while I am at it the doctrine of Original Sin is false too.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

You are wrong in over a hundred ways.
If I was as simple minded as you I would think anyone that does not believe like I do is an atheist. But I am smarter than that. You have the right to believe a lie.
And while I am at it the doctrine of Original Sin is false too.

Thanks for your post. You are obviously quite proud to be a warning to Christians who may think evil is a myth.

 

[St. SteVen]

He was a man in the eyes of the Disciples.

Well... ???

Matthew 8:26-27 NIV
He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?”
Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves,
and it was completely calm.
27 The men were amazed and asked,
“What kind of man is this?
Even the winds and the waves obey him!”