What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?

[David in NJ]

"Surely" and "die" is actually a repeat of the same word.

As such, in the simplest of terms, if God repeats himself, I take that to mean 'you will "totally" die.' In other words, in every way.

Pretty simple and very evident to SEE

 

[David in NJ]

Wow! How many versions of one story can you get? "Subliminally adding" is a very good way to describe what is happening.

Yes...."you surely will not die" was the devil's lie....

If the Bible is one story, with one author, who inspired many 'secretaries' to record God's dealings with the human race from the beginning, then there has to be a narrative that is logical, cohesive and can tell that one story while encompassing all that the Bible teaches without contradiction.

If Adam and his wife were not the first humans, where were these other humans, untainted by the sin that he introduced into the world.
Jesus came to rescue (redeem) Adam's children, so what happened to those other people? They weren't in the garden because Adam and Eve didn't have children until after they sinned. What was the purpose of the garden of Eden?

The suggestion that Adam and his wife were not the first humans is not substantiated in the Bible, like a lot of other things. When people try to add things to fill what they assume are blank spaces in the narrative, those suggestions simply muddy the waters and make the rest of the Bible incomprehensible.

Nothing makes sense.

Could we making the mistake of the pharisees and scholars when we try and find another explanation rather then just accepting what is plain to see???

 

[David in NJ]

I would recommend that people take the time to actually meditate upon Genesis 2:17 and consider the breath of its outcomes' timespan and whether or not it is still applicable to us today?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God"

"The soul that sins shall die"

"For as in Adam all die"

The ONLY CURE is CHRIST = "for all who are in CHRIST shall LIVE"

 

[Exegesis]

Hi @Soyeong . Let's see what you got...

...they were at a crossroads between eternal life and mortality...

Very interesting! The man and woman were already immortal, yet they were lacking something that either tree could give them.

The Tree of Life would clothe them with a *physical* body of glory, while the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would clothe them with a *physical* body of corruption. They were in an 'in-between' state.

Technically, they could have still lived forever, but they would have had to remain naked, i.e., remain without a physical body.

...where eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life...

In other words, they would have been clothed with a body from Heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

...while eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal.

In other words, they were clothed with the 'earthly tabernacle' we have now:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

...In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, they were at the same crossroads where Moses offered them a choice between live and a blessing for obedient to the Torah or death and a curse for disobedience.

Nice. We have 'life and good' and we have 'death and evil' in juxtaposition:

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

We we desire to do something that God has commanded against or vice versa, then we have a choice between whether we are going to learn on our own understanding of morality by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying the Torah in all of our ways and He will make our way straight (Proverbs 3:1-7), which again is the choice between the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life (Proverbs 3:18).

Awesome post @Soyeong

 

[Exegesis]

I would recommend that people take the time to actually meditate upon Genesis 2:17 and consider the breath of its outcomes' timespan and whether or not it is still applicable to us today?

I believe every verse in the Bible is applicable to us today, especially Genesis 2:17.

 

[Exegesis]

Greetings again Exegesis,

First time I have heard that theory.

When I first read about it in another forum decades ago, it finally helped me to resolve why Genesis 1 teaches that man is made *after* plants and animals while Genesis 2 teaches that man was made *before* plants and animals. This is a major problem/contradiction that many scholars nowadays criticize. Most Christians have done nothing to make the two chapters agree with each other.

Atheists think Christians are a joke and the dumbest people on the planet for this very thing.

So, do you @TrevorHL have an answer as to why your Genesis 1 and 2 interpretations contradict each other?

I read Genesis 1-3 as speaking about the first man created, usually called Adam.

Jesus is the 'last Adam'. There is more than one, i.e., Jesus is not the 'second Adam'. There is more to the story.

You seem to be "subliminally adding something to the verses that really isn't there".

How?

I understand the phrase "in the day" to mean initially in the sense "when",

Sure, but when was Earth created?

Genesis 1:10-13 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Earth was created on day three. Thus, this verse is explaining that there is no life yet:

Genesis 2:5 Neither wild plants nor grains were growing on the earth. For the LORD God had not yet sent rain to water the earth, and there were no people to cultivate the soil.

Do you agree with the verse? If so, why then is man created on the third day?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You have yet to address this important part of the story.

Those who teach immortal souls have adopted the serpent's lie.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this 'immortal soul' concept into this thread. Do you even know what a soul is?

You have not commented on the rest of my post, especially Genesis 3:19, that as a result of his sin, he would return to the dust.

I have addressed those and other verses in other parts of this thread. Genesis 3:19 is referring to the Adam that was created on the sixth day, not the third day.

Also the following passages are not speaking about the second death:

Romans 5:12 (KJV): Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:22–23 (KJV): 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

What does Jesus save us from? Does Jesus save us from the first death or the second?

 

[Exegesis]

Wow! How many versions of one story can you get?

There are many versions. Which one is correct? Not yours from what I can see.

"Subliminally adding" is a very good way to describe what is happening.

Non sequitur.

Yes...."you surely will not die" was the devil's lie....

Agreed, so why do you teach this to be true?

If the Bible is one story, with one author, who inspired many 'secretaries' to record God's dealings with the human race from the beginning, then there has to be a narrative that is logical, cohesive and can tell that one story while encompassing all that the Bible teaches without contradiction.

Which is what I am providing in this thread. So far, I am the only one to accomplish this. What is your excuse?

If Adam and his wife were not the first humans, where were these other humans, untainted by the sin that he introduced into the world.

I would politely ask you to read the entire thread where this is answered in great detail already.

Jesus came to rescue (redeem) Adam's children, so what happened to those other people?

Again, read the entire thread and try to comprehend what is written. Show a little respect to the effort that I put in.

They weren't in the garden because Adam and Eve didn't have children until after they sinned.

What is your point?

What was the purpose of the garden of Eden?

Now you are asking an intelligent question. The purpose of the Garden of Eden was for the man and woman to choose which parents to be born from, and which body style to be clothed with. Any questions?

The suggestion that Adam and his wife were not the first humans is not substantiated in the Bible, like a lot of other things. When people try to add things to fill what they assume are blank spaces in the narrative, those suggestions simply muddy the waters and make the rest of the Bible incomprehensible.

Nothing makes sense.

Your comment proves nothing.

Again, your interpretation is the result of taking away and adding unto the Word of God until the narrative fits some preconceived false dogma you were told. You literally changed verses to make it make sense to *you*. Now, when someone challenges you as to why you did that, you become unhinged. See the problem?

Until you prove that your interpretation is the correct one, you have accomplished nothing except to show everyone your cognitive dissonance.

 

[Exegesis]

@Exegesis

Jesus also experienced this same spiritual death when God left him for a moment on the cross.


He paid the price for it as well.

Hi @MatthewG . Did Jesus die the Second Death in our place?

 

[MatthewG]

Hi @MatthewG . Did Jesus die the Second Death in our place?

Yup. I believe he overcame it all. Adam and eve died spiritually that day, and Jesus restored, he also died spiritually the day God left him.

 

[JLB]

Spiritual death (whatever that means)

‘It means spiritually dead.


Adam and Eve did not physically die.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1


We weren’t physically dead, but spiritually dead.


Jesus did not make people who already alive, physically alive, but spiritually alive.

 

[ScottA]

I added some more detail in the response to @TrevorHL .

I was referring to this statement you made in particular:

"The man and woman experienced both the first death as well as the second death within a twenty-four hour period exactly as God."

What about that?

 

[dak]

And when I look at the Greek, it appears that the word for 'death' is there twice?

2288. thanatos

Strong's Greek: 2288. θάνατος (thanatos) -- Death

5053. teleutaó

Strong's Greek: 5053. τελευτάω (teleutaó) -- To end, to finish, to die

Yep.

Just like you said. Die (once) the death (twice). So basically, we have the same 'die die' theme going on. I think we can all agree that this is not something that happens to the righteous.

I don't see it as meaning two deaths but I see no reason at this point to argue that point with you, (I still think we are pretty close on this anyway).

The above comment is stunning to me. You may be the first person I have come across that actually understands this. This is a big breakthrough since I always get banned for trying to show folks this concept. There is a spirit at work that does not want people to know what is really going down in those verses.

That is straight from the scripture; both from a very well known Psalm, and from Paul. The following Psalm of David, which is quoted from in multiple paces in the N/T, proves this fact.

Psalm 8:4-8 ASV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Heb 2:6]
5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God, [Elohim-Angels] And crownest him with glory and honor. [Heb 2:7]
6 Thou makest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; [Gen 1:26-28] Thou hast put all things under his feet: [1Cor 15:25-27, Eph 1:22, Heb 2:8]
7 All sheep and oxen, Yea, and the beasts of the field, [Gen 1:26-28]
8 The birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, Whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26-28]

The beasts of the field are found in the natural creation story, Genesis 2, not Genesis 1, specifically Genesis 2:19-20. The field is never mentioned in Genesis 1. That which is natural comes first: then that which is spiritual, In 1 Cor 15 Paul expounds something critical about the order of the first two chapters of Genesis which many people miss, but before that he quotes from the Psalm:

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 ASV
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. [Psa 8:6]
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him.
28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:42-47 ASV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. [Gen 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven. [Gen 1:26-28]

Both king David in the Psalm, and Paul, are telling us that the Son of Man is in Genesis 1 and no doubt it is He whom the Most High Creator used to raise up the adam from the dead, which after that, He called his name, their name, Adam.

H1254 ברא bara' ~ literally to cut down, as in the sense of cutting down trees to make a house, (Joshua 17:15-18).

Isaiah 45:7-8
7 I form the light, and cut-down [bara'] darkness: I make peace, and cut-down [bara'] evil: I YHWH do all these things.
8 Drop down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open up, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I YHWH have cut-down-created it.

This is important for what follows:

Isaiah 45:13 OG (Old Greek) LXX-Septuagint
13 εγω ηγειρα αυτον μετα δικαιοσυνης βασιλεα και πασαι αι οδοι αυτου ευθειαι ουτος οικοδομησει την πολιν μου και την αιχμαλωσιαν του λαου μου επιστρεψει ου μετα λυτρων ουδε μετα δωρων ειπεν κυριος σαβαωθ

εγω ηγειρα αυτον μετα δικαιοσυνης βασιλεα ~ I raised him up with the King of Righteousness

Isaiah 45:12-13
12 I have made the earth, and cut-down Adam upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up with the King of Righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build My city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, says YHWH Tzabaoth.

The Most High raised up Adam with the King of Righteousness, His Son, and indeed: it was and is very good, and because of this we know that the holy seed-line in Genesis 5 is spiritual, (the beginning of the Lamb's Book of Life).

Interesting. I view the birth of Seth as the continuation of a special genealogy that leads to Jesus:

In other words, many children were being born at the time, but only Seth could replace the special genetics that Abel had. The phrase 'another seed' is a prophecy of Abraham's Seed.

And to Sheth, unto him also there is produced a son, and he calls his name Enosh: at this time there is a commencing to herald (preach) in the name of HE WHO IS.

Enosh is therefore the First Herald/Preacher of Righteousness, (Gen 4:26).
Noah is therefore the Eighth Herald/Preacher of Righteousness, (2 Pet 2:5).

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are many versions. Which one is correct? Not yours from what I can see.

Well, it is obvious to all the readers here that you believe you are the only one with the correct version.....who told you that it was?

Non sequitur.

When something is described as “subliminal” there is an underlying influence that is not obvious to the one affected. This world, ruled by the devil, (1 John 5:19) is bombarded with subliminal influences every day. It’s how he sways the majority away from the only truth there is. (Matt 7:13-14)

Agreed, so why do you teach this to be true?

Because the devil’s first lie was what set in motion the events that would govern the future of the entire human race.....Eve was said to “become the mother of everyone living”...(Gen 3:20) how is that possible if there were other humans in existence before her creation?

Which is what I am providing in this thread. So far, I am the only one to accomplish this. What is your excuse?

LOL....”So far, I am the only one to accomplish this”......ummm.....I’d be careful about that if I were you. (1 Cor 10:12) If you become a legend in your own lunchtime, you can get a bit carried away with your own opinions, when in actual fact your beliefs, though sincerely held, will not change God’s truth.

I would politely ask you to read the entire thread where this is answered in great detail already.

Again, read the entire thread and try to comprehend what is written. Show a little respect to the effort that I put in.

I have read your opinions and I completely disagree with them because they imply a lot that comes out of a vivid imagination rather than actual Scripture.

What is your point?

My point was in my next question which was “what was the purpose of the garden of Eden.”
And you launched into the following....

Now you are asking an intelligent question. The purpose of the Garden of Eden was for the man and woman to choose which parents to be born from, and which body style to be clothed with. Any questions?

LOL...seriously....Adam and his wife were placed in the garden to choose which parents to be born from?

Where the heck will I find that in the Bible.....???
Adam and his wife were created 100% human...even Adam’s name meant “man”. They were not spirits waiting for a body. Where on earth does that even come from?

Your comment proves nothing.

Well don’t look now, but neither do yours. You have an opinion and it looks as if it is not shared by anyone else here....so....
Adam and his wife were not making choices in the garden as to their parents, as they already had a Father who created them to live forever on this carefully prepared planet, (Gen 3:22-24) lovingly supplied with everything they could possibly need to enjoy the life he gave them....all were material creatures, on a material earth, in a material Universe.

Again, your interpretation is the result of taking away and adding unto the Word of God until the narrative fits some preconceived false dogma you were told. You literally changed verses to make it make sense to *you*. Now, when someone challenges you as to why you did that, you become unhinged. See the problem?

Unhinged? Read your own comments and see who is becoming unhinged at the mere suggestion that he could be W R O N G...! I see the problem alright.

The following is what you asked for.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Until you prove that your interpretation is the correct one, you have accomplished nothing except to show everyone your cognitive dissonance.

“Cognitive dissonance”....hmmm....again you don’t see that in yourself....?

You have invented a story around your own misinterpretation of Genesis. Chapter one is in detailed chronological order, but chapter 2 is a “history”, not in chronological order but in order of importance.

Ch 2 tells us some interesting details....I’ll take this quote from the CJB as it is interesting to take a Jewish point of view from Jewish Scripture....the Scripture that Jesus and his apostles used.

“Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when, God, made earth and heaven, there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for , God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground. Rather, a mist went up from the earth which watered the entire surface of the ground.”

This is a “history” or commentary on the vegetation and earth’s watering system at the time of creation. (Incidentally, you will notice that the entire 6 days of the creation of heaven and earth, is called a “day”.
The earth and heaven (the Universe) are the material creation, not the heaven in which God dwells)

No rain, but a “mist went up from the earth” to water it. There is no mention of rain until the flood of Noah’s day. God used a canopy of water that he had placed above the earth (perhaps as a shield to protect against radiation?) (Gen 1:6-8)

Whatever the reason, the waters that were originally on the earth (Gen 1:2) were divided between what was “on” the earth and what was “above” it. Peter also tells us that God used it in the flood. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

“Then , God, formed a person (āḏām) from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being. (soul)” (words in brackets taken from Strongs Concordance)

The person was a soul...(nep̄eš) a living breathing creature. All animals in the creation account are called “souls”. This word never describes a disembodied spirit.

“God, planted a garden toward the east, in ‘Eden, and there he put the person whom he had formed. Out of the ground , God, caused to grow every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
Again not in chronological order because the vegetation was created long before there were any creatures to consume it. The first living things created by God are not mentioned because you need a microscope to see them, but with the earth and plants came the bacteria in which living vegetation thrives and cannot maintain fertility without them.

“A river went out of ‘Eden to water the garden, and from there it divided into four streams.”

This could explain the water source for all land dwellers. Streams of fresh water, perhaps sourced from underground aquifers mentioned in Gen 7:11, that God also used to flood the earth.

“God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”

Adam and his wife were created as mortal humans otherwise this penalty was invalid. If they were immortal, they could not die. The trees were there in the garden because the humans were created in God’s image as free moral agents, and had choices placed before them.....to obey and live...or to disobey and die.

The two trees were there to show what they would choose. Would they obey their Creator and live forever? Or would they abuse their free will and choose to disobey and suffer the penalty...the choice was theirs.

“God, said, “It isn’t good that the person should be alone. I will make for him a companion suitable for helping him.” So from the ground , God, formed every wild animal and every bird that flies in the air, and he brought them to the person to see what he would call them. Whatever the person would call each living creature, that was to be its name. So the person gave names to all the livestock, to the birds in the air and to every wild animal. But for Adam there was not found a companion suitable for helping him.”

Again not chronological but explanatory.
God formed the animals before he made the humans and it was Adam’s job to name them all....not a task that would take place in a single day.....but at the end of that task, it became obvious to Adam that he was the only one without a mate....

“Then God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the person; and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and closed up the place from which he took it with flesh. The rib which , God, had taken from the person, he made a woman-person; and he brought her to the man-person. The man-person said, “At last! This is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh. She is to be called Woman , because she was taken out of Man .” This is why a man is to leave his father and mother and stick with his wife, and they are to be one flesh.”

Spirits don’t have ribs....nor do they sleep. This was an expression of pure joy...”At last” the man had a mate of his own “flesh from his flesh, bone of his bones”. Being human wasn’t their choice.....God created them that way.

And the rest as they say is history.....the history that proceeded from that story.....a logical telling of the important events that included details that chapter one didn’t supply.

Somthere you have the logical conclusion without departing into fantasy or filling the gaps with imagination.
Scripture interprets Scripture.

 

[quietthinker]

What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?​

The statement 'surely die' is self explanatory.....unless one has twisted the terms to mean other than the obvious......and as we have observed on this site over the years, the lengthy and convoluted explanations given to nullify the meaning of these two simple words, keeps people in darkness.
1 John tells us, 'the darkness has blinded their eyes so they don't know where they are going'......and which of the blind will admit this?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Exegesis,

What does Jesus save us from? Does Jesus save us from the first death or the second?

For those that have been faithful and are already dead at the return of Jesus, they will be saved out of the first death, as they will be resurrected from the dust and given immortality. For those who are faithful and are already alive at the return of Jesus, they will be changed to immortality and will not suffer the first death. Hence they will be saved from the first death. Your chosen forum name "Exegesis" reminds me of a ship called "Titanic".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Deborah_]

What does surely die mean? There are many interpretations to choose from:

Looking at the original Hebrew, we find that the word 'surely' is not even there:

In Hebrew there is a special form of the verb (the "infinitive absolute") that is used to convey strong emphasis when added to the normal verb form. This is why the word 'die' is used twice. There's really no equivalent in English, which is why the translation "dying you will die" sounds odd and clumsy. "You will surely die" conveys the meaning.
It has no special theological significance. The reason for the emphasis therefore depends on the context.

 

[dak]

In Hebrew there is a special form of the verb (the "infinitive absolute") that is used to convey strong emphasis when added to the normal verb form. This is why the word 'die' is used twice. There's really no equivalent in English, which is why the translation "dying you will die" sounds odd and clumsy. "You will surely die" conveys the meaning.
It has no special theological significance. The reason for the emphasis therefore depends on the context.

It isn't clumsy at all. Just think about the first time you yourself ate from the tree of the knowledge good and evil: or do you suppose that has never happened in your case? That would mean you've never sinned because that is what the narrative is portraying. If so, you, and the rest here who might believe the same, do not understand. Scholars use the same types of excuses such as what you have presented so as to even delete words from the Hebrew text. They like to use another similar excuse also, "Oh, it's a Hebrew idiom", and then they proceed to not translate the idiom because they themselves actually cannot understand the text or the so-called idiom. They should instead go ahead and translate the idiom, and let the reader discover what it means by prayerful study and searching the scriptures: otherwise they have changed their hats from translator to interpreter and arbiter of what makes it into their translation and what does not.

 

[David in NJ]

In Hebrew there is a special form of the verb (the "infinitive absolute") that is used to convey strong emphasis when added to the normal verb form. This is why the word 'die' is used twice. There's really no equivalent in English, which is why the translation "dying you will die" sounds odd and clumsy. "You will surely die" conveys the meaning.
It has no special theological significance. The reason for the emphasis therefore depends on the context.

"dying you will die" is correct

the moment Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they death entered into them = "dying you will die"

Death claimed dominion over all mankind, even to this day = "dying you will die" = "after death the Judgment" = 2 Deaths

Only One CURE = Sinless LAMB that takes away the sins of the world

 

[Exegesis]

Incidentally, you will notice that the entire 6 days of the creation of heaven and earth, is called a “day”.

Busted. I told you. You changed the literal word for 'day' into 'six days' to make your false dogma work.

You took away and added to the Word of God.