How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Grailhunter]

Yahweh
Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Jesus
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Jesus calling Himself as one with Yahweh.

Give it up friend.

LOL Christ explained the oneness concept.

 

[Lambano]

I thought that was Jacob

Check it out in an interlinear. All the James-es, James the Apostle, James the brother of Jesus, "little James", they're all "Iakobos" in the original Greek. Why weren't they translated "Jacob"?

 

[Grailhunter]

Check it out in an interlinear. All the James-es, James the Apostle, James the brother of Jesus, "little James", they're all "Iakob" in the original Greek. Why weren't they translated "Jacob"?

The name "James" in Hebrew is translated as "Yaakov" (יעקב). This name is commonly recognized in Hebrew contexts and maintains the essence of the original name. Additionally, "James" is the English equivalent of "Jacob," which also translates to "Yaakov" in Hebrew.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yahweh God the father Almighty and supreme God and creator God.
Yeshua God the Son.....Savior....Messiah
The Unnamed God.....the Holy Spirit.....helper....guide....the communicator.
All Gods that set on thrones....Yeshua sits to the right of the Father.

FYI No one knows where the word Jesus comes from
The Greek word in the scriptures that they use for Christ's name is not a name it means healer.
Christ's name is Yeshua....
Oddly enough the Name of God the Father and God the Son are not in the scriptures. Yahweh's name was removed 6,800 times from the Old Testament and replaced with the words God or Lord or both and Yeshua name does appear in the Old Testament because it was a common name but does not appear in the New Testament.
No J's in the Bible.....J's only appear in English and the J came out in the 1400's and Shakespeare made it popular and the King James Version adopted the J's and eventually the word Jesus.
No J's in the scriptures......Job is Yob....Joshua is Yeshua.....James is Yames.....Jerico is Yerico etc

Yes indeed.
I once had a vision of the rapture. As we were ascending up into the sky I recognized some of the people. We talked to each other without using voices. ( without our mouths).

 

[rebuilder 454]

Check it out in an interlinear. All the James-es, James the Apostle, James the brother of Jesus, "little James", they're all "Iakob" in the original Greek. Why weren't they translated "Jacob"?

Strong's Number G2385 matches the Greek Ἰάκωβος (iakōbos),
which occurs 42 times in 38 verses in the TR Greek.
James for English. As long as it is consistent.
It is

 

[MonoBiblical]

Therefore? Bible also never calls the Father as YHWH.

You wonder why? Because the tetragrammaton YHWH is never used in Greek.

Oh yes, it does when it says the true God who made the elevations and the earths, and especially when the virgin birth was predicted.

 

[HealthyShape]

Oh yes, it does when it says the true God who made the elevations and the earths, and especially when the virgin birth was predicted.

Not in Greek.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh yes, it does when it says the true God who made the elevations and the earths, and especially when the virgin birth was predicted.

Are You talking about Isaiah 7:14?
You know that verse sits in a whole storyline about a testing the faith of king and the virgin birth is Isaiah's wife. That is why it is good to know the language and time period culture. Back then a woman that had not had a baby yet was considered a virgin.

 

[Muna]

Okay. Does anytime actually teach that?

Did you even read the first post I quoted? Go back and read that, you came in after and might have missed that one.

Not so sure what you just said up there either. I would guess you are asking does anyone actually teach that, which is what I was answering to. That Jesus was not speaking to himself as suggested.

See post #597

 

[St. SteVen]

Not in Greek.

Might be worth checking the OT reference in the Septuagint.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are just repeating the nonsense you heard somewhere.

Aren’t you doing the same thing?

You cannot even read Greek, but you try to teach it here. Conversation with you is fruitless.

Since you cannot come up with a convincing rebuttal, perhaps you can present something other than what you have stated here, and which other Scripture contradicts. You apparently read Greek because someone taught you.....who was that?

One simple clear unequivocal statement by Jesus himself that he is part of a triune God will suffice. No inference, no suggestion, just one clear statement....
I’ll wait.....

Can you tell us why the Tetragrammaton is missing from the Greek Scriptures, even when Hebrew Scripture is quoted by Jesus and his apostles, where the divine name is there in the Hebrew text? Did God somehow rescind his command to Moses to tell the people the meaning of his name....and that it was to be mentioned throughout their generations.....? (Exodus 3:13-15)

Why are you fixated on the Greek when the larger part of the Bible is written in Hebrew? Are you also a Hebrew speaker? Jesus used the Hebrew Scriptures exclusively.....and as a Jew, would have held to what it teaches....monotheism.....”one God”. Isn’t that what the apostles stated....unequivocally? They too were Jewish.

“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1Cor 8:5-6 NASB)
Where is the third party? Why is he missing?

Jesus statement at John 17:3....
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (NASB) Missing again....
Jesus is addressing his Father as “the only true God” and himself as the one he “sent”.

Paul tells us Hebrews 3:1-4...
“Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.” (NASB)

What was the position of the High Priest in Israel? It was an office of service to God, leading the nation in worship, and presiding over the entire priesthood.
Can God then be his own High Priest?
Can he be his own “apostle”?
Can he be his own “servant”? (Acts 4:27, 30)
Can he be his own Son? (John 10:36)

There are literally countless Scriptures that contradict this doctrine that came late because it was an invention of the “weeds” who took over in what became, “the church” once the apostles were gone, just as Jesus said it would. The apostasy became ‘the faith’ (under pain of death if one was game to argue) and that is what the majority adhere to, even now, and wonder why they cannot agree about so many things....?

It was the apostate church that Jesus warned was going to take over the Christian Faith that changed God’s Identity completely. Not until the 4th century did the trinity become official “church” doctrine....and through much controversy. Why was something as important as the identity of the only true God, rewritten by a renegade church....drunk with its own power.

I could just repeat the verses I gave you, but you cannot read them, so there is nothing to continue with.

Or perhaps you are out of ammo....tell us what other Scripture you have and I will address them one by one to show you why your interpretation doesn’t hold water....you apparently know church theology but are not a Bible student....and I am beginning to doubt your claim as one who can read Koine Greek. You aren’t very convincing.

Better call the Jehovah Witness who is teaching you the nonsense to come here and to speak for himself, instead of hiding behind somebody who cannot even recognize Greek letters, who does not understand the different Psalm numbering in the LXX etc.

How childish....but what we would expect from someone who has run out of argument....who will you run to to bail you out of the hole you have dug for yourself?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Might be worth checking the OT reference in the Septuagint.

I was actually going to mention that.....the Hebrew Tetragrammaton is retained in the older Greek text.
By the time Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews has long since refrained from any mention of the divine name, lest they break the second Commandment and “take God’s name in vain”.

Truth be known, it was because many frivolous oaths were being made in God’s name, but not honoured, which brought reproach on Yahweh.....so instead of punishing the culprits, they simply forbade any mention of it in their everyday speech.

The Greeks had no way to speak about the nameless “one God” of the Jews, because all their gods had names, so they simply called him “ho theos” or “THE God” and it was understood who was being spoken about.
In the Greek text it still is...but so often ignored by translators.

 

[St. SteVen]

Truth be known, it was because many frivolous oaths were being made in God’s name, but not honoured, which brought reproach on Yahweh.....so instead of punishing the culprits, they simply forbade any mention of it in their everyday speech.

You should check with @ProDeo concerning the proper spelling of "pulpits". - LOL

Is your faith defined by what you DON'T believe? - The anti-doctrinal stance

Do we even understand grace? I doubt it. Up to the limits that a person has the ability to....most definitely. You extend grace to those who have been evil towards you and sometimes it gets difficult....and there is a limit of how much grace you can extend because you are merely human...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Yahweh God the father Almighty and supreme God and creator God.
Yeshua God the Son.....Savior....Messiah
The Unnamed God.....the Holy Spirit.....helper....guide....the communicator.
All Gods that set on thrones....Yeshua sits to the right of the Father.

FYI No one knows where the word Jesus comes from
The Greek word in the scriptures that they use for Christ's name is not a name it means healer.
Christ's name is Yeshua....
Oddly enough the Name of God the Father and God the Son are not in the scriptures. Yahweh's name was removed 6,800 times from the Old Testament and replaced with the words God or Lord or both and Yeshua name does appear in the Old Testament because it was a common name but does not appear in the New Testament.
No J's in the Bible.....J's only appear in English and the J came out in the 1400's and Shakespeare made it popular and the King James Version adopted the J's and eventually the word Jesus.
No J's in the scriptures......Job is Yob....Joshua is Yeshua.....James is Yames.....Jerico is Yerico etc

I know there are no J's in the Greek.
In different languages the name of Jesus begins with a different letter.

What does this have to do with there being only ONE supreme being?
You're creating 3 gods G.
There can only be one God.

I'm not getting into a debate about whether or not Jesus is God.

The creeds were in response to heretical teachings that were circulating.
But Jesus was declared to be uncreated from the very beginning.




For instance, the Apostles Creed declared Jesus to be born of the Holy Spirit,,,making Him God.
But it doesn't teach that He always existed...so another creed.

You know all this....each one clarified something that was being incorrectly taught by some.

I like the Italian...
Jesus was GENERATED
NOT created.

Generated means He came out from something....
This is how I understand the Trinity.....
Jesus is the WORD of God....the mind and intellect of God....
At some point in time, He became human and took on the form of a man...
but He had always existed with God Father...He was always a part of Him.

Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

If Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature...
it means He has the same nature...
it means He is God....
God has always existed and is not created.

The JW believe Jesus is the Son of God...but was created.
We do not consider them to be Christian.

 

[Brakelite]

God is a divine position, not a name....that got lost when they removed Yahweh's name 6,800 times in the Old Testament and replaced it with the words God or Lord or both.
God the Father is the supreme God ….. The Father is greater than I ……and I have an essay that proves that the one God formula is wrong with over a hundred scriptures. Like wise the one God formula skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures.....50 My Father scripture.....Should Yeshua have said that He is the Father of Himself? Or or I am greater than I or should the scripture read God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten self. Or when Yeshua was on the cross He should have said, Myself! Myself! why have you forsaken me!

As far as unity....If you have three computers the outcome of all three will be the same. Three perfect minds will do the same and always agree. One mind may know something the others do not like when Christ said He did not know when the end of time was, on the Father. And there is hyarchy of authority like when Christ told John and James mother that He did have the authority to give her sons thrones on each side of Him.

But either way no harm no foul. it is a popular belief, just like the fruit of the tree in the Paradise of Delights was an apple. And then you have the false doctrine of Original Sin.

I agree with you until you get to 2 Gods.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Paul calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” and states that “all things were made through him and for him”....(Col 1:15-17)

Heb 1:3 is also saying that Jesus is “the exact representation of his nature”....the word “nature” in that verse is unique because other verses that use this same word (hypostasis) are translated as “confidence” or “assurance”....so what does Paul mean if this word is only used in Paul’s writings?

What then is a “representation”? (charaktēr)?

It s defined as....

1. “the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile.” (Strongs)

So what was Jesus then? A “representation” is not the original, but a “marked likeness”...a “facsimile”.
Does that mean that Jesus was God...or just exactly like him in character and personality? How else could Jesus be the “image of the invisible God”? (Col 1:15)

Where do the translators get their ideas from when translating these words, if they don’t agree with the other places that they appear when said by the same person?

If Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature...
it means He has the same nature...
it means He is God....
God has always existed and is not created.

Does it? Can Jesus rightly be called “theos” (god) and not be God with a capital “G”? The Bible answers yes!
The primary definition of “theos” in Greek is....

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities” (Strongs)

Was Jesus a divine being? Who could argue with that? Of course he was divine.....he came from God as his “firstborn”.....his “only begotten son”....by the very nature of the relationship of father and son, we understand that these are not the same person.....one was “begotten” by the other, and therefore had to have existed first.

Rev 3:14 says...
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:....” (NASB)

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.” (ESV)

“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” (KJV)

What are we missing here...? Or rather, what are we ignoring?

The JW believe Jesus is the Son of God...but was created.

Yes, because that is what Scripture teaches.....not what the “the church” introduced as doctrine centuries after Jesus died.

We do not consider them to be Christian.

It really doesn’t matter what any human thinks or defines as a “Christian”....what counts is whether Jesus considers us to be his disciples and under obligation to teach what he taught.

Jesus confirms that the majority of those claiming him as their “Lord” will come to grief, making vain excuses because they were so sure that they were genuine “Christians”......Jesus’ response to them will be “I never knew you! Depart from me you workers of lawlessness”....(Matt 7:21-23)

“Never” means “not ever”. .....so not in their entire existence have these counterfeit “Christians” been the genuine article, whilst pointing fingers at others and claiming that they were not “real Christians”.....and at the same time claiming their own exclusivity, whilst teaching things that Jesus never did.

In Jesus’ day who were the real heretics? The ones who put Christ to death whilst claiming to serve the same God. When Jesus comes as judge he will encounter the same scenario.....those who claim Jesus as their “Lord “ and “savior” will find themselves on the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14) Their destination is a dead end...yet they will not believe the truth. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why not? He wasn't called Christ or Jesus, but He was begotten long enough ago to create everything.

Follow the crumbs Brakelite

Let's see if you can perceive why!

Exodus 21:5–6
Deuteronomy 15:16–17
Psalm 40:6–8
Hebrews 10:5–7
Hebrews 5:7–9

Start with the Law of the Bond Servant and allow the Word to guide you into Truth Brakelite. I'll be interested to see if you see it.

 

[Grailhunter]

I know there are no J's in the Greek.
In different languages the name of Jesus begins with a different letter.

What does this have to do with there being only ONE supreme being?
You're creating 3 gods G.
There can only be one God.

I'm not getting into a debate about whether or not Jesus is God.

Again let me reword this
This is like texting things get lost.
There is no J's in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic.
There are 3 Gods in the New Testament.....big G.
God is a divine position, not a person and not a name. Yahweh would no more say Hello I am God than you would say hello I am person. In some ways that gets lost because they removed God's name from the Old Testament 6,800 times and replaced His name with the word God or Lord or Both and people try to stuff the word God with three Gods.
A God named Yahweh God the father Almighty and supreme God and creator God.
A God named Yeshua God the Son.....Savior....Messiah
The Unnamed God.....the Holy Spirit.....helper....guide....the communicator.
All Gods that set on thrones....Yeshua sits to the right of the Father.
I have an essay that that has a hundred scriptures that proves the one God formula wrong
My Father in Heaven.....The Father is greater than I.....Yeshua ascended to His Father....Yahweh has a Son named Yeshua....Yeshua prays to His Father in the garden. etc

 

[Grailhunter]

I like the Italian...
Jesus was GENERATED
NOT created.

Generated means He came out from something....
This is how I understand the Trinity.....
Jesus is the WORD of God....the mind and intellect of God....
At some point in time, He became human and took on the form of a man...
but He had always existed with God Father...He was always a part of Him.

This is a simple thing. One God impregnated a woman from the blood line of King David and she conceived from Him and she had a baby. The baby was another God. Yeshua got His human form from His mother and Divinity from His Father. The verse.....God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....is true and accurate. Since the scriptures say conceived that means her egg reacted to something was it sperm or presto changeo I will leave that to you

 

[Grailhunter]

For instance, the Apostles Creed declared Jesus to be born of the Holy Spirit,,,making Him God.

Somewhat a mystery.....The name of the Holy Spirit is not revealed in the scriptures and this God's involvement with the impregnation of Miriam is not explained. So many changes between the testaments.....What is the story of the Holy Spirit? Where did this God come from? The scriptures do not say. Some like to say the Holy Spirit is not a God just Yahweh spirit which is holy. It is easy just to say the Yeshua and the Holy Spirit always existed. NO.
Exist and time continuum. A God relates to time differently then we......not a clock.....a time continuum string. Yeshua did not exist before His conception.....but after He was conceived He existed in the past, present, and future. But Yeshua did not exist in manner where he could create everything. That is why He is not mentioned doing anything in the Old Testament.