How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[HealthyShape]

The LXX and Justin Martyr are the only other witnesses to word betulah being originally used.

We were talking about the YHWH title/name, not about the word "virgin".

 

[Hiddenthings]

Before going through your texts. I will offer one myself which completely supports the concept of preexistence.
“6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ”
Philippians 2:6-9 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Firstly,

Was Paul teaching God to Servant or Son to Servant?

If you quote from a letter, do you think it's important to understand its core theme and how Paul shapes his Exhortation points?

Theme: The Mind of Christ (phroneō (“to think”) in Philippians) 11 times!!!

Philippians 1:7 – to think; to feel. Describes Paul’s feelings for the believers.
Philippians 2:2 – likeminded. Describes the type of unity needed in the church.
Philippians 2:2 – one mind. Same context of ecclesial unity.
Philippians 2:5 – this mind. Refers to an attitude of mind - the mind of Christ.
Philippians 3:15 – this mind. Describes a similar point of view.
Philippians 3:15 – think otherwise. Describes a differing point of view.
Philippians 3:16 – same mind. Refers to similar thinking or perspective.
Philippians 3:19 – set their mind. Describes those focused on earthly things.
Philippians 4:2 – same mind. Refers to two sisters who need to be in agreement.
Philippians 4:10 – care. Refers to thoughtful concern.
Philippians 4:10 – care. Repeated, emphasizing careful concern.

Do you agree with the context above and this central theme of "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus"

A simple yes or no will do for now.

 

[RLT63]

The King of Tyre walking and trading among the stones of Israel! What an extraordinary use of Garden of Eden imagery and high priestly breastplate symbolism in connection with him. The so-called “Christian Satan” (the adversary) is nowhere to be found here, RLT!

What does Satan mean in Hebrew? Adversary
As a proper noun: Over time, the term began to be used specifically for the supernatural accuser. The definite article "ha" (הַ), meaning "the," is often added, making it ha-satan or "the adversary". This specific usage appears in books like Job and Zechariah.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What does Satan mean in Hebrew? Adversary

Correct, in most cases human, though can be God or an obedient Angel.

As a proper noun: Over time, the term began to be used specifically for the supernatural accuser. The definite article "ha" (הַ), meaning "the," is often added, making it ha-satan or "the adversary". This specific usage appears in books like Job and Zechariah.

So far, in this forum over the past 12 months, no one has been able to prove the existence or identity of an archangelic enemy of God. Many have tried, you’re welcome to give it a try as well.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@RLT63

This should get you started:

Origin of Sin: James 1:13–15; Mark 7:20–23; Jeremiah 17:9 (cf.)

The Meaning of “Satan” (Adversary):

• God – 2 Samuel 24:1 (cf. 1 Chronicles 21:1)
• An obedient divine angel – Numbers 22:22
• Hadad the Edomite – 1 Kings 11:14
• Peter – Matthew 16:23

The Meaning of “Devil” (Accuser; Slanderer):

• Judas – John 6:70
• Women – 1 Timothy 3:11 (cf. Titus 2:3)
• Men – 2 Timothy 3:3

Sin in the Flesh: Hebrews 2:14 (cf. Hebrews 9:26); Romans 5:21; 6:23 (showing that “devil” is synonymous with sin); Romans 7:17–18 (cf.)

 

[Hiddenthings]

What does Satan mean in Hebrew? Adversary
As a proper noun: Over time, the term began to be used specifically for the supernatural accuser. The definite article "ha" (הַ), meaning "the," is often added, making it ha-satan or "the adversary". This specific usage appears in books like Job and Zechariah.

What’s striking is that nowhere in the chapter you quoted is “Satan” or “devil” mentioned. So before you even write a single word, your argument is already based on an inference, not the text. Definitely not a good place to start!

I went through the entire chapter with @Aunty Jane, and she had nothing to respond to the correct interpratation. Yet to this day, she still quotes that chapter to support her belief, fully aware of the correct understanding.

Do you know what that’s called?

 

[RLT63]

What’s striking is that nowhere in the chapter you quoted is “Satan” or “devil” mentioned. So before you even write a single word, your argument is already based on an inference, not the text. Definitely not a good place to start!

I went through the entire chapter with @Aunty Jane, and she had nothing to respond to the correct interpratation. Yet to this day, she still quotes that chapter to support her belief, fully aware of the correct understanding.

Do you know what that’s called?

I didn’t quote a chapter, I just gave the definition so I don’t really know what you’re talking about, unless you mean the King of Tyre. Clearly this passage is not speaking about a mere human

 

[Hiddenthings]

I didn’t quote a chapter, I just gave the definition so I don’t really know what you’re talking about

Ezek 28

How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

I know there are no J's in the Greek. In different languages the name of Jesus begins with a different letter. What does this have to do with there being only ONE supreme being? You're creating 3 gods G. There can only be one God. I'm not getting into a debate about whether or not Jesus is...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[RLT63]

Ezek 28

It’s clearly not speaking about a mere human. Who was in Eden?

 

[Hiddenthings]

It’s clearly not speaking about a mere human. Who was in Eden?

You missed the point - you will need to use your spiritual mind and seek to understand how God is using this imagery in relation to the King.

28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Eze 28:11–12.

If you can't understand the lament in relation to the King you need to put in the time to do so.

 

[RLT63]

You missed the point - you will need to use your spiritual mind and seek to understand how God is using this imagery in relation to the King.

28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Eze 28:11–12.

If you can't understand the lament in relation to the King you need to put in the time to do so.

The King of Tyre wasn’t in Eden or Heaven and he wasn’t a cherub

 

[Hiddenthings]

The King of Tyre wasn’t in Eden or Heaven and he wasn’t a cherub

Getting close!

Genesis 2:8 says: “And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east…”

This indicates that the Garden of Eden was a specific area within a broader region called Eden, rather than the entirety of Eden itself.

Ezekiel 27:23 references trade goods coming from Tyre, which is sometimes compared typologically to Eden in terms of abundance and resources, though the connection is more thematic than geographical.

So, biblically, the garden was situated within the eastern region of Eden, supporting the idea that Eden was more extensive than just the garden itself.

Where in the chapter does it say the King lived in a time contemporary with Adam & Eve?

Think RLT!

But...lets assume you still can't see how it relates to the King of Tyre

The same figurative language is used Pharaoh, king of Egypt, is depicted as a cedar of Lebanon, taller than any of the other “trees of Eden” (with trees symbolizing nations) see Ezekiel 31:2–3, 8–9, 16, 18 (RSV). However, this reference to Eden does not imply that Pharaoh lived contemporaneously with Adam and Eve.

Understand?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@RLT63

28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and emerald, the chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, the sapphire, turquoise, and beryl; your settings and mounts were made of gold. On the day you were created they were prepared Eze 28:13.

What is God saying about the King of Tyre?

 

[Brakelite]

Firstly,

Was Paul teaching God to Servant or Son to Servant?

If you quote from a letter, do you think it's important to understand its core theme and how Paul shapes his Exhortation points?

Theme: The Mind of Christ (phroneō (“to think”) in Philippians) 11 times!!!

Philippians 1:7 – to think; to feel. Describes Paul’s feelings for the believers.
Philippians 2:2 – likeminded. Describes the type of unity needed in the church.
Philippians 2:2 – one mind. Same context of ecclesial unity.
Philippians 2:5 – this mind. Refers to an attitude of mind - the mind of Christ.
Philippians 3:15 – this mind. Describes a similar point of view.
Philippians 3:15 – think otherwise. Describes a differing point of view.
Philippians 3:16 – same mind. Refers to similar thinking or perspective.
Philippians 3:19 – set their mind. Describes those focused on earthly things.
Philippians 4:2 – same mind. Refers to two sisters who need to be in agreement.
Philippians 4:10 – care. Refers to thoughtful concern.
Philippians 4:10 – care. Repeated, emphasizing careful concern.

Do you agree with the context above and this central theme of "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus"

A simple yes or no will do for now.

A simple yes or no will not do when I disagree with your principle premise... God or Son to servant... Both.
If you don't think that the Son begotten of God is not God, then what is He?

 

[Hiddenthings]

A simple yes or no will not do when I disagree with your principle premise... God or Son to servant... Both.
If you don't think that the Son begotten of God is not God, then what is He?

So you don't believe the theme of "mind" is in Philippians...I'm looking for integrity from you, and you are giving nothing.

 

[Muna]

In both of these the Devil is synomous with Satan

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Mat 4:9-10 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

[Hiddenthings]

A simple yes or no will not do when I disagree with your principle premise... God or Son to servant... Both.

Unfortunately, you don’t have the context in Philippians for either point, nor do you seem to recognize the inspired Scriptures on which Paul is basing his teaching.

If you don't think that the Son begotten of God is not God, then what is He?

Well, firstly Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man - 83 times.

How many times does he refer to himself as the Son of God?

The Apostle in Romans states he became the Son of God with Power, how?

1:2 This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, (Son of Man) 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:2–4.

If I took you through the Acts of the Apostles, do you really think we’d find the same teaching as above?

Brakelite, you seem to believe that simply copying and pasting Philippians 2 somehow proves your doctrinal creed, but it doesn’t, and it never will accomplish what you’re trying to make it say. Mainly because you cannot understand the central themes of that letter or the basis of his points.

I even gave you a list of verses so you could “follow the crumbs,” yet I know the true meaning of those passages will remain hidden from you as long as you assume you already have all the answers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” and states that “all things were made through him and for him”....(Col 1:15-17)

Heb 1:3 is also saying that Jesus is “the exact representation of his nature”....the word “nature” in that verse is unique because other verses that use this same word (hypostasis) are translated as “confidence” or “assurance”....so what does Paul mean if this word is only used in Paul’s writings?

What then is a “representation”? (charaktēr)?

It s defined as....

1. “the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile.” (Strongs)

So what was Jesus then? A “representation” is not the original, but a “marked likeness”...a “facsimile”.
Does that mean that Jesus was God...or just exactly like him in character and personality? How else could Jesus be the “image of the invisible God”? (Col 1:15)

Where do the translators get their ideas from when translating these words, if they don’t agree with the other places that they appear when said by the same person?

Does it? Can Jesus rightly be called “theos” (god) and not be God with a capital “G”? The Bible answers yes!
The primary definition of “theos” in Greek is....

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities” (Strongs)

Was Jesus a divine being? Who could argue with that? Of course he was divine.....he came from God as his “firstborn”.....his “only begotten son”....by the very nature of the relationship of father and son, we understand that these are not the same person.....one was “begotten” by the other, and therefore had to have existed first.

Rev 3:14 says...
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:....” (NASB)

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.” (ESV)

“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” (KJV)

What are we missing here...? Or rather, what are we ignoring?

Yes, because that is what Scripture teaches.....not what the “the church” introduced as doctrine centuries after Jesus died.

It really doesn’t matter what any human thinks or defines as a “Christian”....what counts is whether Jesus considers us to be his disciples and under obligation to teach what he taught.

Jesus confirms that the majority of those claiming him as their “Lord” will come to grief, making vain excuses because they were so sure that they were genuine “Christians”......Jesus’ response to them will be “I never knew you! Depart from me you workers of lawlessness”....(Matt 7:21-23)

“Never” means “not ever”. .....so not in their entire existence have these counterfeit “Christians” been the genuine article, whilst pointing fingers at others and claiming that they were not “real Christians”.....and at the same time claiming their own exclusivity, whilst teaching things that Jesus never did.

In Jesus’ day who were the real heretics? The ones who put Christ to death whilst claiming to serve the same God. When Jesus comes as judge he will encounter the same scenario.....those who claim Jesus as their “Lord “ and “savior” will find themselves on the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14) Their destination is a dead end...yet they will not believe the truth. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

As I said...I'm not going to debate the divinity of Jesus or the fact that He existed from the beginning, if eternity can have a beginning....He always was.

WHO is the alpha and the omega?

Isaiah 44:6
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides * Me.

Isaiah 48:12
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


The above is speaking about GOD FATHER.
Now let's go to the NT:


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Who is Revelation 1:8 speaking of?
JESUS


Now:

Revelation 21:2-6
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Who is dictating to John?
Who is the above describing?
Who gives to the one who thirsts?
JESUS


Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done *.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Who is going to render to each man what He deserves? (John 5:28-29)
Who is going to do the judging at the end?
JESUS


So, the Alpha and the Omega is God Father...
and
the Alpha and the Omega is Jesus.

One and the same God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unfortunately, you don’t have the context in Philippians for either point, nor do you seem to recognize the inspired Scriptures on which Paul is basing his teaching.

Well, firstly Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man - 83 times.

How many times does he refer to himself as the Son of God?

The Apostle in Romans states he became the Son of God with Power, how?

1:2 This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, (Son of Man) 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:2–4.

If I took you through the Acts of the Apostles, do you really think we’d find the same teaching as above?

Brakelite, you seem to believe that simply copying and pasting Philippians 2 somehow proves your doctrinal creed, but it doesn’t, and it never will accomplish what you’re trying to make it say. Mainly because you cannot understand the central themes of that letter or the basis of his points.

I even gave you a list of verses so you could “follow the crumbs,” yet I know the true meaning of those passages will remain hidden from you as long as you assume you already have all the answers.

The Son of Man refers to Daniel....

Daniel 7:13-14
13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.


This is why The HIgh Priest tore his robes at the trial of Jesus:


Matthew 26:63-65
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter * you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;


1. The High Priest knew Jesus was referring to the vision of Daniel.
2. The High Priest believed Jesus was blaspheming by declaring Himself to be God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again let me reword this
This is like texting things get lost.
There is no J's in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic.
There are 3 Gods in the New Testament.....big G.
God is a divine position, not a person and not a name. Yahweh would no more say Hello I am God than you would say hello I am person. In some ways that gets lost because they removed God's name from the Old Testament 6,800 times and replaced His name with the word God or Lord or Both and people try to stuff the word God with three Gods.
A God named Yahweh God the father Almighty and supreme God and creator God.
A God named Yeshua God the Son.....Savior....Messiah
The Unnamed God.....the Holy Spirit.....helper....guide....the communicator.
All Gods that set on thrones....Yeshua sits to the right of the Father.
I have an essay that that has a hundred scriptures that proves the one God formula wrong
My Father in Heaven.....The Father is greater than I.....Yeshua ascended to His Father....Yahweh has a Son named Yeshua....Yeshua prays to His Father in the garden. etc

G,,,
I don't even know how to respond to this.
I don't know if my posts nos. 818 and 819 even would apply to what you're stating.
Usually the debate is to whether Jesus is God or whether or not He is created...
what you're doing, honestly, I've never come into contact with before.

What happened to the shema?

Deuteronomy 6:4
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

So are we like the pagans that believed in a myriad of gods?

When Jesus was on earth the Father WAS greater than He was.
While on earth Jesus did NOT know everything....
This does not mean He didn't exist before or that He was a 2nd type of god.

I just don't even know how to debate this.
Christians must adhere to the basic tenets of Christianity.

I believe the creeds worked this out.

I was going to post some ECFs but I don't even think that would help because you're not denying
that Jesus is God.