No Escape : From Hell

[TazzJazz]

Hello, hope you are well.

Let's make clear that I'm not saying God is not pleased with you

I hope so. Im trying to follow the pattern His Son left for Christians. To "follow His steps closely." - 1 Peter 2:21

All I'm saying is that you're not Christian...big difference.

So, in your eyes, Im not Christian, but God can be "pleased with" me?
(Didn't you say otherwise in another post? Maybe not.)

I try to be obedient to & follow Christ in all things, including worshipping Who Jesus worshipped: his Father. - John 4:23; John 20:17.

If you wanted to kill me....

Whoa! Since I am trying to follow in Jesus' steps, IOW be obedient to him, I would never! Even if my life were threatened! Jesus said @ Revelation 2:10..."Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

If you wanted to kill me and I could - I'd kill you first.
Self-defense.

Well, I've already established that the premise is moot.... Really though, this life is not all there is. - 1 Corinthians 15:19.

Families also need protecting.

Certainly! and I would. But doing so wouldn't necessarily require me to kill.

Christ told the Apostles to sell a tunic and buy a sword.
For protection.

Luke 22:36
36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Im sorry, but it seems you're trying to justify taking lives.
You remember how this event turned out, don't you? This was an object lesson....and Jesus actually stopped the attack.

(If you'll recall, I said that response to my post wasn't necessary. The questions I posted were rhetorical. My goal was not to put anyone on the spot.)

Ooops. You didn't post the scripture.

Id like to get people to read the Bible for themselves.... it might just carry more weight that way.

Most don't.

Most don't what? Look up Scripture for themselves?

If you want those reading along to know the scripture,,,
you're going to have to post it !

OK....Matthew 7:22,23 (ASV) quotes Jesus' prophetic words, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So these ones claiming to be Christian, are doing "many mighty works".... but from whom are they getting this power? Not from Christ, obviously!

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

Unfortunately, most Christians don't realize that historical fact (a year's wages to have a bible) AND the average person couldn't even read which means Scripture was especially true for those living back then; So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, the wonders of reality for @Aunty Jane

Hope your thanksgiving was great.

Mary

Yes Ma'am....
There were no bibles, no NT, in the early church.
Christianity was taught orally by those that the Apostles had taught.
When the NT refers to scripture...it means the OT.

Too many are prejudiced and will not learn anything new.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello, hope you are well.

Ditto Tazz

I hope so. Im trying to follow the pattern His Son left for Christians. To "follow His steps closely." - 1 Peter 2:21

Nice to hear.
We are doing our best, I believe (to please God).

So, in your eyes, Im not Christian, but God can be "pleased with" me?
(Didn't you say otherwise in another post? Maybe not.)

No sir.
I never contradict myself.
Here is what is needed to be saved.
1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.

Being Christian means you believe in Christian tenets.
There's a thread on this: THEOLOGY/CAN ONE NOT BELIEVE THE TRINITY AND BE CHRISTIAN

I try to be obedient to & follow Christ in all things, including worshipping Who Jesus worshipped: his Father. - John 4:23; John 20:17.

Again,,,nice to hear.

Whoa! Since I am trying to follow in Jesus' steps, IOW be obedient to him, I would never! Even if my life were threatened! Jesus said @ Revelation 2:10..."Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

I'm not going to debate this.
If you would rather be killed, then kill the other person..it is your absolute right.

Well, I've already established that the premise is moot.... Really though, this life is not all there is. - 1 Corinthians 15:19.

Certainly! and I would. But doing so wouldn't necessarily require me to kill.

One never knows.

Im sorry, but it seems you're trying to justify taking lives.

You may understand it as you will.
I don't care for this discussion because of misunderstandings...
and by your statement, you're proving my dislike of it.

You remember how this event turned out, don't you? This was an object lesson....and Jesus actually stopped the attack.

Sure. The Apostles were WITH Jesus and HE stopped the attack.
But Jesus was sending them out ON THEIR OWN when he told them to either have or sword
or sell a robe and buy a sword.

(If you'll recall, I said that response to my post wasn't necessary. The questions I posted were rhetorical. My goal was not to put anyone on the spot.)

Id like to get people to read the Bible for themselves.... it might just carry more weight that way.

Most don't what? Look up Scripture for themselves?

Yes...Right.
Most will not look up scripture.
And, in a conversation, they should not be required to.

If I want to post a verse to you,,,,I should post it, not just give the book and location.

OK....Matthew 7:22,23 (ASV) quotes Jesus' prophetic words, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So these ones claiming to be Christian, are doing "many mighty works".... but from whom are they getting this power? Not from Christ, obviously!

Jesus was saying that we can do many works and still be lost.
Jesus said they were to depart because they WORK INIQUITY.
They did not obey Jesus....
Iniquity means a sinful life - more than committing a sin.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Holy Spirit is said to be the administration of God’s Power, which is why it can “fill people”...
Acts 2:1-3 NCB...

What did God’s spirit “enable them to do”? And what else were they enabled to do?
Heal the sick and raise the dead...

Joh’s baptism was a Baptism of repentance – NOT a sacramental on of imparting the Holy Spirit.

John himself said that he only baptized with water – but the another (Jesus) would come to Baptize with the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:11).

The Holy Spirit proceeds FROM the Father and the son. All three Persons were present at the
Baptism of Jesus.
The boy Jesus was already teaching the rabbis in the Temple which was LONG before His baptism.

When Jesus was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, what was he empowered to do?
If he was God he would not have needed the other part of himself to enable him to perform miracles....and yet, there are no miracles of Jesus recorded before his baptism....turning water to wine at a wedding feast was his first miracle. (John 2:11)

God’s spirit was said to be administered in measured amounts, such as when Moses was leading the nation of Israel after their liberation from slavery in Egypt.
I will take some of the Spirit that is upon you and put it upon them. They will carry the burden of the people with you, so that you do not have to carry it alone.” (Numbers 11:14-17....NCB)

How did Jehovah respond? He appointed “seventy of the older men of Israel” and said that he would take some of the spirit that was on Moses, and divide it among his 70 helpers. Can this describe a person?
Can you receive “some” of a person?

What, then, do you say about those who are in love with more than one person?

Does a person love a friend like they love their spouse? Their child? Thei grandchild?

Why is the Holy Spirit called a “He”?
Greek uses male pronouns when speaking of the “Paraclete” (helper, holy spirit) which is a masculine noun and requires masculine pronouns....

to you.
Because the Holy Spirit is a PERSON who proceeds from BOTH the Father AND the Son:

John 16:7
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

John 20:22
And when He (Jesus) had said this, HE breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the HOLY SPIRIT.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the FATHER will send in MY name, HE will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

..if you ever learned French at school, you will understand male and female nouns in such languages, which in reality have no literal gender.

It DOESN’T work that way . . .

For instance, I speak Spanish, which, like French is a Latin language. When you have a masculine of feminine noun – you don’t refer to them as “He” or “She” - unless you’re talking about a living being. The gender is built-into the word.

For instance, you don’t refer to a house or a street as “Her” – even though they are both feminine nouns in Spanish. That is reserved for a person or a dog, etc.

 

[BreadOfLife]

continued . . .

It’s a grammar issue.

NO – it’s a JW perversion of grammar . . .

When the Bible calls Jesus “God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27, 30) you will have to explain how God can be his own servant.

We’ve already been through this. ONCE again – Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY man. This is the hypostatic union.

Jesus, in His humanity is God’s servant.

How he can be his own “High Priest”....and also his own “apostle”....(Heb 3:1)

Jesus, in His divinity is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
He is High Priest of our confession.

WHAT does a Hight Priest DO? He mediates for us to the Father (1 Tim. 2:5).

Sorry, but space will prevent me from showing you how wrong those assumptions of the church are...they are all entirely biblical.....although the last one is a belief rather than a doctrine because there is no clear statement regarding that distinct possibility....but Christendom doesn’t let that stop them from believing so many things that do not have clear statements.....so how can they condemn us?

I reject Sola Scriptura as FALSE doctrine because neither Scripture nor Tradition teach it.

Space will not allow me to explain the origins of every Tradition - but I trust in Jesus Christ, who gave His church compete Authority to speak on HIS behalf (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15).

Then you haven’t studied either Scripture or history....

I’ve studied BOTH.

I just haven’t learned it from a 19th century man-made sect that rejects 1900 years of Christian beliefs and actually believes that Jesus is a LIAR.

For His Church to be destroyed, only to be "rebuilt" some 1900 years later means that He LIED when He guaranteed that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against HIS Church (Matt. 16:18).

Yikes indeed...where did you dig those up ?
I guess you don’t know that we are great believers in progressive revelation of truth, just as it was in the first century, God revealed things on a “need to know” basis.
He highlighted this fact in Prov 4:18-19...
“The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which increases in brightness to the fullness of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness,and they cannot even see what they have stumbled over.” (NCB)

We expect to progress in our knowledge and understanding as the time draws near for the coming judgment....we are not stuck in centuries old lies with no way to explain them..

The LIES vomited out by your sect have nothing to do with “progressive truth”.

God didn’t revel lies and falsehoods to His prophets so that they, in turn could LIE to the people.
Prov. 4:18-19 is NOT about lying to anybody. It’s about revealing the truth little by little . . .

...still grinding away at those false beliefs even though they cannot be substantiated in Scripture. Any wonder your church balks at sola scriptura! Not a single doctrine would stand if it was solely based on the Bible.

First of all – MOST doctrines are explicitly found in Scripture – and others are implicitly taught.

Now - show me where the BIBLE teaches Sola Scripturea.
While you’re at it – show me where the List oof Books that belong in it are mentioned.

This should be interesting . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

continued . . .


NO – it’s a JW perversion of grammar . . .

We’ve already been through this. ONCE again – Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY man. This is the hypostatic union.

Jesus, in His humanity is God’s servant.

Jesus, in His divinity is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
He is High Priest of our confession.

WHAT does a Hight Priest DO? He mediates for us to the Father (1 Tim. 2:5).

I reject Sola Scriptura as FALSE doctrine because neither Scripture nor Tradition teach it.

Space will not allow me to explain the origins of every Tradition - but I trust in Jesus Christ, who gave His church compete Authority to speak on HIS behalf (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15).

I’ve studied BOTH.

I just haven’t learned it from a 19th century man-made sect that rejects 1900 years of Christian beliefs and actually believes that Jesus is a LIAR.

For His Church to be destroyed, only to be "rebuilt" some 1900 years later means that He LIED when He guaranteed that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against HIS Church (Matt. 16:18).

The LIES vomited out by your sect have nothing to do with “progressive truth”.

God didn’t revel lies and falsehoods to His prophets so that they, in turn could LIE to the people.
Prov. 4:18-19 is NOT about lying to anybody. It’s about revealing the truth little by little . . .

First of all – MOST doctrines are explicitly found in Scripture – and others are implicitly taught.

Now - show me where the BIBLE teaches Sola Scripturea.
While you’re at it – show me where the List oof Books that belong in it are mentioned.

This should be interesting . . .

Such patience.
I admire you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Joh’s baptism was a Baptism of repentance – NOT a sacramental on of imparting the Holy Spirit.

John himself said that he only baptized with water – but the another (Jesus) would come to Baptize with the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:11).

I didn’t mention John’s baptism....my reference was to the event at Pentecost.....where all present received the Holy Spirit and were then endowed with its gifts....the Holy Spirit was the admistration of God’s power, given to 120 individuals.....how can you distribute a “person” to 120 other persons?

The Holy Spirit proceeds FROM the Father and the son. All three Persons were present at the
Baptism of Jesus.
The boy Jesus was already teaching the rabbis in the Temple which was LONG before His baptism.

All three have a role to play in the journey each one of us must undertake to become a genuine Christian.
Nowhere does it say that these three are one God...than is an assumption...one that would have been entirely missing from the minds of those to whom Jesus said it.

What, then, do you say about those who are in love with more than one person?

Does a person love a friend like they love their spouse? Their child? Thei grandchild?

What on earth is that supposed to mean? And how does it address what I said? You are confused...

to you.
Because the Holy Spirit is a PERSON who proceeds from BOTH the Father AND the Son:

If there are three distinct “persons”, then that just muddies the waters.....these two, sent that one....but they are all one God?.......what Scripture demonstrates, is that God gave his powerful spirit to Jesus at his baptism so that he could perform miracles.....that power was also given to the apostles by Jesus who could perform miracles in his name. Not until Pentecost and receiving the Holy Spirit, could the disciples perform miracles by themselves, and the apostles were the only ones who could “lay hands” on others to impart it to them. Once the apostles passed away the gifts died with them.

It DOESN’T work that way . . .

For instance, I speak Spanish, which, like French is a Latin language. When you have a masculine of feminine noun – you don’t refer to them as “He” or “She” - unless you’re talking about a living being. The gender is built-into the word.

For instance, you don’t refer to a house or a street as “Her” – even though they are both feminine nouns in Spanish. That is reserved for a person or a dog, etc.

Why do we call ships...”she”? Look at what you just said, because that is exactly what I said. Male and female “gender is built into the words” of that language....and yes, living things are termed “he” or “she” but that isn’t always the case. In the original language the speaker knows how to interpret their own language....so in Greek the pronouns are male or female.....that is just correct grammar.

We know so much more about “pronouns” today than we ever have.....but not for the right reason.
A pronoun is defined as....”words that replace nouns to avoid repetition, such as he, she, it, they, we, and you.”
If the native speaker knows that a thing is in reality “neuter” gender, (not a living thing), they can replace it with a pronoun....”it” when speaking. But the written language will support the gender of the word in that language.
Calling the “Paraclete” (male gender) “he” is just grammatically correct, not an indication of personhood.

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn’t mention John’s baptism....my reference was to the event at Pentecost.....where all present received the Holy Spirit and were then endowed with its gifts....the Holy Spirit was the admistration of God’s power, given to 120 individuals.....how can you distribute a “person” to 120 other persons?

All three have a role to play in the journey each one of us must undertake to become a genuine Christian.
Nowhere does it say that these three are one God...than is an assumption...one that would have been entirely missing from the minds of those to whom Jesus said it.

What on earth is that supposed to mean? And how does it address what I said? You are confused...

If there are three distinct “persons”, then that just muddies the waters.....these two, sent that one....but they are all one God?.......what Scripture demonstrates, is that God gave his powerful spirit to Jesus at his baptism so that he could perform miracles.....that power was also given to the apostles by Jesus who could perform miracles in his name. Not until Pentecost and receiving the Holy Spirit, could the disciples perform miracles by themselves, and the apostles were the only ones who could “lay hands” on others to impart it to them. Once the apostles passed away the gifts died with them.

Why do we call ships...”she”? Look at what you just said, because that is exactly what I said. Male and female “gender is built into the words” of that language....and yes, living things are termed “he” or “she” but that isn’t always the case. In the original language the speaker knows how to interpret their own language....so in Greek the pronouns are male or female.....that is just correct grammar.

We know so much more about “pronouns” today than we ever have.....but not for the right reason.
A pronoun is defined as....”words that replace nouns to avoid repetition, such as he, she, it, they, we, and you.”
If the native speaker knows that a thing is in reality “neuter” gender, (not a living thing), they can replace it with a pronoun....”it” when speaking.

Really?
So what is the word for IT in Italian as referring to an inanimate object?

 

[Aunty Jane]

We’ve already been through this. ONCE again – Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY man. This is the hypostatic union.

Jesus, in His humanity is God’s servant.

No scripture says so....Jesus had to be 100% human to become the redeemer of the human race which descended from Adam. Jesus gave his sinless life for the one Adam lost for his children.

God is an immortal, who cannot die, no matter what form he takes, so if Jesus was 100% God, then only 50% of him died. Please explain how that works.

WHAT does a Hight Priest DO? He mediates for us to the Father (1 Tim. 2:5).

What is a mediator? He is an impartial “bridge” in communication between two estranged parties.

He cannot be one of the parties because it clearly says in 1 Tim 2:5...
“For there is one God AND there is one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus, himself a man, who gave himself as a ransom for all”. (NCB)

If Jesus was God, we would need a mediator between us and him as well.....

I reject Sola Scriptura as FALSE doctrine because neither Scripture nor Tradition teach it.

Jesus and his apostles used the Hebrew Scriptures in their teachings.....this was the Scripture that Paul spoke about in 2 Tim 3:16-17....
“All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in uprightness, so that the man of God may be proficient and equipped for good work of every kind.” (NCB)
What more was needed? It was all there...inspired by God.

Space will not allow me to explain the origins of every Tradition - but I trust in Jesus Christ, who gave His church compete Authority to speak on HIS behalf (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15).

What makes you think that the Catholic Church was “the church” he spoke about...? Especially when he warned of the counterfeit that he said the devil was going to spread in the world. Jesus said “by their fruits” we would recognize his true disciples......I don’t think the actions demonstrated by “the church” from the second century onward have any good fruitage to boast about.

I just haven’t learned it from a 19th century man-made sect that rejects 1900 years of Christian beliefs and actually believes that Jesus is a LIAR.

No the “liars” who taught you go way back in history....still as entrenched in their false doctrines as they ever were...

For His Church to be destroyed, only to be "rebuilt" some 1900 years later means that He LIED when He guaranteed that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against HIS Church (Matt. 16:18).

The “weeds” never defeated the “wheat” entirely, as they still existed among them....the martyrs who paid with their lives for telling the truth. Your church murdered them, just as their forefathers murdered the prophets of old. (Matt 22:37-39)

God didn’t revel lies and falsehoods to His prophets so that they, in turn could LIE to the people.
Prov. 4:18-19 is NOT about lying to anybody. It’s about revealing the truth little by little . . .

Thank you for confirming what I said.....”little by little” is exactly what progressive understanding means.....

First of all – MOST doctrines are explicitly found in Scripture – and others are implicitly taught.

In “the church” this might be true....but to genuine Christians, if it’s not in Scripture, it isn’t from God...what is “explicit” cancels out what is “implied” because Scripture backs up Scripture.

Now - show me where the BIBLE teaches Sola Scripturea.
While you’re at it – show me where the List oof Books that belong in it are mentioned.

This should be interesting . . .

I already have, and the Bibles we have today are devoid of the Catholic inclusions that are, by their content, apocryphal....not part of inspired Scripture.
Do you honestly think that God would not provide his word as he meant us to have it at this late juncture...?

We are staring down the barrel of the greatest catastrophe in the history of the world.....what we have today is what God has given all of us to prepare us.....so there are no excuses for ignorance......the choices are ours...we dictate our own destiny.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Really?
So what is the word for IT in Italian as referring to an inanimate object?

Perhaps when you answer my questions, I will answer yours.... but for now, I have to go....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Such patience.
I admire you.

Thanks.
I don''t think I'll ever change Aunty Jane's mind. However, heresies and falsehoods, like those from the Watvhtower need to constantly be exposed so that others don't fall into this oit of lies and confusion . . ..

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don''t think I'll ever change Aunty Jane's mind.

You are correct about that at least.
The fact that you cannot defend your own doctrines speaks volumes to those not indoctrinated by a church that is clearly far removed from anything Jesus taught.

However, heresies and falsehoods, like those from the Watvhtower need to constantly be exposed so that others don't fall into this oit of lies and confusion . . ..

Heresies and falsehoods are the very foundation of Catholicism, but only the brave had the courage to question their teachings and conduct......after torture forced a confession, certain death awaited them. What kind of ”Christianity” is that? Can you argue with recorded history?

You speak of lies and confusion.....but fail to recognize the lies and confusion that Catholicism teaches.
They are a mirror image of first century Judaism. Any attempt to expose the wickedness of the church and its teachings, meets with blind faith, backed up by itself and it’s own adopted ideas.....because none of it can be backed up by Scripture, which the church ignores unless it can twist the word to fit its own lies. The real heretics are calling those who disagree with their lies...heretics!

History is repeating because satan doesn’t need to change his tactics.....they still work so well for him.
How much of this world is not controlled by him?
Who sits on an earthly throne in the Vatican controlling the beliefs and conduct of Catholics all over the world? It isn’t Jesus.....not even close.
No one performs meaningless ritual in Christendom, like Catholic people have been taught to do from childhood. And in my own experience, no one responds more angrily to the way they have been ‘programmed’ to worship, than Catholic people who actually want to study the Bible. Once the church is exposed for what it truly is, there is no going back.

What does 1 John 5:19 say....?
“We know that we are from God and that the entire world lies under the power of the evil one.” (NCB)

The deceiver knows how to deceive on a mass scale....we show the devil that we are “no part of his world” (John 17:16; John 18:36) by our conduct and refusal to participate in its bloodshed and immorality. We also refuse to accept any teaching that comes from outside of God’s word, just as the first Christians did.

People deserve the truth, no matter how confronting it is....and all have the choice to believe it...or not.
The truth sets us free...it does not enslave us to traditions and teachings that Christ never preached.

 

[TazzJazz]

Thanks.
I don''t think I'll ever change Aunty Jane's mind. However, heresies and falsehoods, like those from the Watvhtower need to constantly be exposed so that others don't fall into this oit of lies and confusion . . ..

Calm down... You're too abusive.

 

[TazzJazz]

Dear @GodsGrace ,
The following is a pleasant exchange!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im trying to follow the pattern His Son left for Christians. To "follow His steps closely." - 1 Peter 2:21

Nice to hear.
We are doing our best, I believe (to please God).

So, in your eyes, Im not Christian, but God can be "pleased with" me?
(Didn't you say otherwise in another post? Maybe not.)

No sir.
I never contradict myself.
Here is what is needed to be saved.
1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can & should be civil, ie., Christian, to each other.
Not everyone on this forum agrees, though....

I think it would be more appropriate to ignore posts from hate-mongers which
threaten 'burning in hell forever.' Marking a post as "loved", only incites more of the same.
Im sure that you're like me: We don't wish anything like that, even on our worst enemy!

(And JW's are no ones' enemy. If your country (Italy) were attacked by another, be assured
no bullets would come from Jehovah's Witnesses.)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Calm down... You're too abusive.

I see . . .

But you don’t have a problem with the anti-Catholics on this forum who spew hateful lies and false accusations - iIs that it?

 

[GodsGrace]

You are correct about that at least.
The fact that you cannot defend your own doctrines speaks volumes to those not indoctrinated by a church that is clearly far removed from anything Jesus taught.

Heresies and falsehoods are the very foundation of Catholicism,

Do you know ANY church history at all???

The Catholic Church kept heresies out of the early church.
The JWs weren't around back then and neither was any other denomination.

However, heresies were taught by different sects,,,
same as today - beginning about 200 years ago.

1844 JOSEPH SMITH - CHURCH OF LATTER DAY SAINTS
1852 CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL - THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES
1915 ELLEN GOULD WHITE - SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS

I've also told you that were it not for the CC, you would be speaking Arabic today.
You replied that this wouldn't be so bad.

I'm thankful that the Crusades removed Islam from Europe.
Apparently you don't understand that religion very well.

but only the brave had the courage to question their teachings and conduct......after torture forced a confession, certain death awaited them. What kind of ”Christianity” is that? Can you argue with recorded history?

You speak of lies and confusion.....but fail to recognize the lies and confusion that Catholicism teaches.
They are a mirror image of first century Judaism. Any attempt to expose the wickedness of the church and its teachings, meets with blind faith, backed up by itself and it’s own adopted ideas.....because none of it can be backed up by Scripture, which the church ignores unless it can twist the word to fit its own lies. The real heretics are calling those who disagree with their lies...heretics!

The Catholic Church teaches Christ and Him crucified.
It teaches the institution of the Eucharist,,,instituted at the Last Supper.
JWs don't even believe in receiving communion.
You don't believe in the Holy Spirit -- He is spoken of throughout scripture.

The Holy Spirit is a Person.
Jesus said that He would send HIM:

John 14:16
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

You're a slave to a heretical belief system.

Your hatred of the CC blinds you to the history of the church.

History is repeating because satan doesn’t need to change his tactics.....they still work so well for him.
How much of this world is not controlled by him?
Who sits on an earthly throne in the Vatican controlling the beliefs and conduct of Catholics all over the world? It isn’t Jesus.....not even close.

You say really silly things.
I WISH the Pope controlled the beliefs and conduct of all Catholics...
but, alas, the CC is not as legalistic as your church - if YOU don't follow the rules, YOU get kicked out.

Who brain washed you?
And you think the Pope is Jesus?

This is a rather silly belief.

No one performs meaningless ritual in Christendom, like Catholic people have been taught to do from childhood. And in my own experience, no one responds more angrily to the way they have been ‘programmed’ to worship, than Catholic people who actually want to study the Bible. Once the church is exposed for what it truly is, there is no going back.

What have YOU been taught from your childhood?
To be a good little JW, convince others, and NEVER leave that church or you will be shunned by all.

What does 1 John 5:19 say....?
“We know that we are from God and that the entire world lies under the power of the evil one.” (NCB)

The deceiver knows how to deceive on a mass scale....we show the devil that we are “no part of his world” (John 17:16; John 18:36) by our conduct and refusal to participate in its bloodshed and immorality. We also refuse to accept any teaching that comes from outside of God’s word, just as the first Christians did.

Yes Ma'am....
the devil sure does know how to deceive.
You're living proof.

People deserve the truth, no matter how confronting it is....and all have the choice to believe it...or not.
The truth sets us free...it does not enslave us to traditions and teachings that Christ never preached.

BUT YOU are the enslaved one...
not other Christians - including Catholics....

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear @GodsGrace ,
The following is a pleasant exchange!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice to hear.
We are doing our best, I believe (to please God).

No sir.
I never contradict myself.
Here is what is needed to be saved.
1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can & should be civil, ie., Christian, to each other.
Not everyone on this forum agrees, though....

I think it would be more appropriate to ignore posts from hate-mongers which
threaten 'burning in hell forever.' Marking a post as "loved", only incites more of the same.
Im sure that you're like me: We don't wish anything like that, even on our worst enemy!

(And JW's are no ones' enemy. If your country (Italy) were attacked by another, be assured
no bullets would come from Jehovah's Witnesses.)

I agree.
I do want to say that I dislike persons that pervert church history because of their hatred of the CC, and maybe even other denominations.

History is history and speaking against it is rather silly IMHO.

Those who go on these Forums to declare who is saved and who is not are also doing harm to the Christian faith.
Only God can know who is saved.

Jesus said we should not divide ourselves...He said a house divided will fall.
Luke 11:17

And yet very recent religions have been invented by mere men.
Quite honestly, this is disturbing to me.
This is not to say that the members cannot be saved persons.
A few sects HAVE divided the church...and yet some criticize those that stayed within orthodoxy.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are correct about that at least.
The fact that you cannot defend your own doctrines speaks volumes to those not indoctrinated by a church that is clearly far removed from anything Jesus taught.

Heresies and falsehoods are the very foundation of Catholicism, but only the brave had the courage to question their teachings and conduct......after torture forced a confession, certain death awaited them. What kind of ”Christianity” is that? Can you argue with recorded history?

You speak of lies and confusion.....but fail to recognize the lies and confusion that Catholicism teaches.
They are a mirror image of first century Judaism. Any attempt to expose the wickedness of the church and its teachings, meets with blind faith, backed up by itself and it’s own adopted ideas.....because none of it can be backed up by Scripture, which the church ignores unless it can twist the word to fit its own lies. The real heretics are calling those who disagree with their lies...heretics!

History is repeating because satan doesn’t need to change his tactics.....they still work so well for him.
How much of this world is not controlled by him?
Who sits on an earthly throne in the Vatican controlling the beliefs and conduct of Catholics all over the world? It isn’t Jesus.....not even close.
No one performs meaningless ritual in Christendom, like Catholic people have been taught to do from childhood. And in my own experience, no one responds more angrily to the way they have been ‘programmed’ to worship, than Catholic people who actually want to study the Bible. Once the church is exposed for what it truly is, there is no going back.

What does 1 John 5:19 say....?
“We know that we are from God and that the entire world lies under the power of the evil one.” (NCB)

The deceiver knows how to deceive on a mass scale....we show the devil that we are “no part of his world” (John 17:16; John 18:36) by our conduct and refusal to participate in its bloodshed and immorality. We also refuse to accept any teaching that comes from outside of God’s word, just as the first Christians did.

Are you saying that the first Christians had a bible to read?
HOW would the early Christians have known they were being taught the word of God?
Did they travel with a bible under their arm?

People deserve the truth, no matter how confronting it is....and all have the choice to believe it...or not.
The truth sets us free...it does not enslave us to traditions and teachings that Christ never preached.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you know ANY church history at all???

Yes...it has all been recorded so that anyone can read what is an appalling story of “church” history.
What church history are you referring to?

As you said....”History is history and speaking against it is rather silly IMHO.”
So why do you deny it, or pretend that an apostasy wasn’t foretold by Jesus himself, as well as by the apostles? It was beginning at the end of the first century, but held back until the last of the apostles (John) passed away. His was the last contribution to Christian Scripture.

The “weeds” that Jesus warned about, pretty much choked out what the apostles tried to keep alive....the truth, about God YAHWEH, about his son, and about God’s Kingdom....which has been perverted ever since then by a church system so divided and disunited that it is a shame to call it “Christianity”.

If Jesus came back today...who would he recognize as his own?

The Catholic Church kept heresies out of the early church.
The JWs weren't around back then and neither was any other denomination.

The Catholic church WAS the heresy....but pretended to be “wheat” rather than the “weeds” that they proved to be, by their appalling deviation from Scripture....and their murder of any who sought to reveal the truth and expose them.

Only in today’s world can people obtain the truth without the church gagging those who want to expose error and free people from ancient rusted shackles that still keep their members in bondage to beliefs and practices that find no origin in Scripture....nothing close to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

However, heresies were taught by different sects,,,
same as today - beginning about 200 years ago.

1844 JOSEPH SMITH - CHURCH OF LATTER DAY SAINTS
1852 CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL - THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES
1915 ELLEN GOULD WHITE - SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS

And these were the groundswell of an awakening that had to happen.....the devil knew that the jig was up as the “last days” were looming, so he did what he has always done....he created counterfeits, so that today the world is flooded with them. Christendom is a confused and bickering mess, but all still claiming to be “Christians”...the “body of Christ”.....Can Christ exist in a dismembered body?

I've also told you that were it not for the CC, you would be speaking Arabic today.
You replied that this wouldn't be so bad.

Did I? You misrepresent what I said.....I drew your attention to the fact that nothing happens in this world that God does not permit. You act as if he needs corrupt humans to do his job for him.....I assure you, he is quite capable of taking care of his own business....everything is taking place just as he has foretold.

I'm thankful that the Crusades removed Islam from Europe.
Apparently you don't understand that religion very well.

LOL...now that’s funny....I understand that an apostasy was foretold by Jesus himself, and that Christendom pretends that it never happened.....or that it only happened recently when people started to question the role of an impotent church system in the real lives of people struggling to find God in that maze of confusion. Any wonder that science took over and eliminated God altogether for a great many people....

Was God thankful for those who ignored his Christ to shed unsanctioned blood? (Matt 5:43-44)
Since Christendom has often had soldiers fighting each other in various wars, can we ask whose side God took in those wars where both sides are claiming to be “Christians”?

The Catholic Church teaches Christ and Him crucified.
It teaches the institution of the Eucharist,,,instituted at the Last Supper.
JWs don't even believe in receiving communion.
You don't believe in the Holy Spirit -- He is spoken of throughout scripture.

We believe what the Bible says, not what “the church” (of whatever label it wears) teaches....
We have examined all doctrines carefully, and sifted out what was introduced in later centuries and passed off as “Christian” teachings. You are still bound by things that God and his son never taught.

What is “communion”? It morphed into something way different to what Jesus instituted on the night before his death. The church turned it into a meaningless ritual....as if a wafer in the shape of the sun, given to someone in a line, regardless of their lifestyle, means anything to God.

Rituals are an empty way to worship, as are repetitive prayers. As if confessing sins to another sinner and repeating words mindlessly is penance that leads to God’s forgiveness. This makes God into a moron, who requires nothing more than empty performance from his worshippers. Sorry, not good enough.

The Holy Spirit is a Person.
Jesus said that He would send HIM:

John 14:16
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

You have been informed many times about the use of pronouns.
The “Paraclete” (Holy spirit) is male gender in Greek, and requires male pronouns...that argument is weak.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You're a slave to a heretical belief system.

Your hatred of the CC blinds you to the history of the church.

Could you be the one “enslaved to a heretical belief system” that has been around so long that no one noticed how far it had deviated from what Jesus and his apostles instituted in first century....is that what you call “Christianity”? Does God or Jesus call it “Christianity”?
Could your own hatred for anyone who argues with “orthodox” Christianity be the problem?

You say really silly things.
I WISH the Pope controlled the beliefs and conduct of all Catholics...
but, alas, the CC is not as legalistic as your church - if YOU don't follow the rules, YOU get kicked out.

What do you think “excommunication” means? Your own church practised it quite regularly in its early days but now it tolerates all manner of sinners in its ranks.
The apostle Paul taught us what to do if we found unrepentant sinners in our ranks.....

1 Cor 5:9-13.....
“In my letter, I wrote to you not to associate with people who are leading immoral lives. Obviously, I was not referring to contact with people in the world who are immoral or with those who are greedy or thieves or worshipers of false gods, since to do this you would have to leave the world. What I really meant to get across was that you should not associate with any brother or sister who is sexually immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard or a robber. You should not even eat with such a person. It is no concern of mine to judge those who are outside the fold. It is your responsibility to judge those who are inside. God will pass judgment on the outsiders. Banish the evil person from your midst.” (New Catholic Bible)

Well, what do you know? The responsibility for “banishing” those who sin unrepentantly is quite clear.
Why do you think your church doesn’t do what Paul admonished them to do? Who would be left in the church if they did?

The leaders of the church were “responsible” to judge those inside, whilst God judged the heathens.

Who brain washed you?
And you think the Pope is Jesus?

This is a rather silly belief.

He may as well be since people seem to worship the ground he walks on....sitting on his throne as if he were Christ or God himself.......you will find out soon enough what God thinks of those who dare to demand such devotion to a man and a woman....one living on earth...the other who bore the Son of God....who was also a mere mortal....nothing like what Catholicism turned her into.....with all the trappings and titles of the ancient mother goddesses.

What have YOU been taught from your childhood?
To be a good little JW, convince others, and NEVER leave that church or you will be shunned by all.

I was raised in the Anglican Church actually...about as Catholic as you can get without being Catholic....
As I got older the hypocrisy in the church appalled me, praising the Prince of Peace with one corner of their mouth and supporting bloodshed in wars with the other.....as I searched in Christendom to find God, he was missing from all of their denominations. All I saw was people pretending to be Christians...picking up their “Christianity” at the door of the church and leaving it there on their way out. I knew God was not in Christendom. And at that time, Jehovah’s Witnesses were the last people I would have expected to be able to teach me anything about God...I had only heard bad things about them.....but when they called one day, for some reason I wanted to question them, mostly to confirm for myself that they were just another misguided cult. So I asked the same questions of them that I had asked of various church ministers, with no satisfying answers.....only to be asked if I had a Bible and could I go and get it?
I thought.....what have I got to lose?.....what can they possibly show me in my own Bible?

Well, I realized how wrong I was! For every question I had, there was a Scriptural answer......something that had never happened to me before, so my curiosity was piqued. So I agreed to a Bible study and with the understanding that I had no intention to do anything, I just wanted the knowledge for the sake of my own curiosity. I studied the Bible carefully, topic by topic exhaustively for two whole years before I came to the conclusion that I had found the answers to all my questions and no body ever said “I think”...they showed me what the whole Bible said, not just cherry-picked verse that suggested that something was true.

So that is the difference.....when you study the Bible as opposed to church theology, you get a completely different picture about what it teaches. After two years of solid study, I was baptized in full knowledge about what I believed and why I believed it. I know my Bible because I made it my business to know it. Shouldn’t we all do that?