Who really created the Son of God?
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No, you may rather ask what kind of God. The one that is worshiped. The one that created everything. The one that is one with Father. The one that identifies Himself with the Son of Man coming on clouds from Daniel. The one that has life in Himself.
Interesting. I tell people that too.
I worship Yahweh and Jesus, not Yanweh and Yahweh.
See the Apostles’ Creed.
Jesus, not Yahweh.
Jesus, not Yahweh.
Yahweh and Jesus.
Post in thread 'Believing Jewish monotheist to unbelieving Jewish monotheists and Gentiles'
Believing Jewish monotheist to unbelieving Jewish monotheists and Gentiles
The Angel of YHWH is to be understood as a divine manifestation or projection of YHWH-Elohim presence, not a separate, or another YHWH person, reflecting God’s 'omnipresence' (how one defines it) and ability to reveal Himself in multiple ways. Why is this so complicated to realize is beyond me. Why make stuff up is also beyond me.
Only Yahweh can be worshiped. If Jesus is now Yahweh, you have the obvious problem:
Do not worship any other god, for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Ex 34:14
This distinction has no meaning. Jesus is one with Father. Who sees Him, sees the Father. Jesus is the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven (you should already know what coming on the clouds of heaven means). The high priest knew it very well:
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
Mt 26, NIV
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Lots of people are legitimately worshipped in scripture. Yahweh - Jesus’ God and Father - is the subject of Exodus 33:14. There is no God besides Yahweh. Jesus knows that.
The NT story is a simple one: Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Son of Yahweh.
You will someday have to face up to the fact that your deity is the Trinity and the Messiah’s deity isn’t the Trinity. You and he don’t worship the same God.
Not that it will make any difference to you - which makes no difference to me - but Jesus and I do worhip the same God. (Post #45.)
Only God can be worshiped. Even angels rejected worship. It seems your "theology" is falling apart quite easily.
You are still ignoring plenty of NT scriptures, just to say "it is simple" and to repeat your limited view. The NT says that Jesus is God, both explicitly and implicitly.
Remember, Jesus is the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven (you should know what that means). The high priest knew. Do you want me to quote it again?
If you check a Concordance you will find that many people besides God are legitimately worshipped in scripture.
You don’t ignore any scripture. I don’t ignore any scripture. I understand every passage of scripture from a Hebraic perspective; you don’t.
It means that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the living God.
@HealthyShape @David Lamb @JLB @Nancy
I took a few minutes to provide scripture to my post as one already said I lacked providing it.
Some direct scripture verses that support my claim for this post. I wonder how popular these scripture are to people who believe in a God with 2 other people/persons occupying his own space?
(Mat 28:18) So he came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.(ERV)
(Joh 3:34) God sent him, and he tells people what God says. God gives him the Spirit fully. (ERV)
Joh 5:19 But Jesus answered, "I assure you that the Son can do nothing alone. He does only what he sees his Father doing. The Son does the same things that the Father does. (ERV)
(Joh 5:30) "I can do nothing alone. I judge only the way I am told. And my judgment is right, because I am not trying to please myself. I want only to please the one who sent me.
(Joh 14:10) Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don't come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work.
(Joh 14:11) Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done. (ERV)
(Joh 17:4) I finished the work you gave me to do. I brought you glory on earth. (ERV)
And notice the most recent propaganda line I occasionally even read on this site, and even today on another thread, that Yeshua was a mere man and could not have performed his mission (performing miracles, forgiving sins, remaining sinless etc.), as only God could do all this work, is horse's manure. It is a bold faced lie right out of the garden of Eden.
Just from these scripture verses alone and the one in the OP of Luke 1:35, tells you that Yeshua was not a mere man. He was created by God his Father, alone, and became the 2nd Adam who succeeded by doing the will of his Father. He did not need to be the impossible hybrid god-man, and that scripture never addresses, as he remained completely human with God inside of him, under his hood doing ALL the work.
So God did all the work for our salvation although the man Yeshua the Son of my one God was not God himself, he was a son of man as spoke of this way, over 81 times.
So why do many still want to make/force Yeshua the man to be God is beyond me. Is it because the spirit of understanding and knowledge has not hit home yet, as with many of the primitive thinkers of the so-called church of the so-called church fathers.
@HealthyShape @David Lamb @JLB @Nancy
And now towards the touchstone popular verses of the many..
I have now established per Luke 1:35 alone, that the so-called 3rd person of God is fiction, it is the power and Spirit of the one God, the Father.
I have also established per Luke 1:35 that the so-called 2nd person of God was actually Yeshua the human being and person, created with one human nature and not two or more. The Spirit of God supplied the means and substance to fertilize Mariam's ovum to produce a typical human male with one major exception. His nature and thus spirit and his body that became a soul, was perfect and sinless, uncorrupted by the power of another man.
I have also established that that the Son of Man the 2nd Adam, the Son of God was anointed and God's WORD and power of Spirit immediately filled the human spirit of his Son Yeshua at his Baptism and anointing (Emmanuel indeed, as per scripture)
Now on this basis alone John's 1:1-3 logos is God's own logos, intrinsic to his core and composition. Yeshua does not compute at all in this part of scripture. He is never mentioned. It's fiction to force another being to, into the spirit of the one person God, the Father; as it has been done for centuries now by outrageous primitive thinking and belief. It has distorted the meaning of Yeshua and therefore Christianity for centuries.
Then when we finally read John 1:14, Yeshua is obviously mentioned without name, as the man who eventually possessed his Father's WORD (upon his anointing), this logos of God along with his Spirit, in full, as humanly possible. Both word and God's Spirit both possessed by the anointed 2nd Adam, the son of man. We saw/witnessed his glory as he worked with his Father to do his will. The word and spirit were always owned by God, the plan, WORD(s) of GOD for human salvation was executed jointly, from Father to Son, to the Cross. As we read, the Son was eventually merited with immortality, of a glorious transformed spirit, that also glorified his Father in the process.
JLB
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I really can't determine what your point is, from Luke 1:35.
If you are confused about who Jesus Christ is, He is God. The scriptures are clear about this.
He is the only Begotten of the Father. This of course has nothing to do with His incarnation; His being manifested in the flesh.
He became a man, to take on the sins of the world.
God became a man; He became flesh. This is irrefutable.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Do you believe the Father or the Son was manifested in the flesh?
JLB, I'm glad to say I'm not confused at all on this subject. I know this subject very well. I'm very much well versed in it. Thanks for asking.
And I'm accommodating as long as it conforms to sound scripture and interpretation, and it conforms to my spirit, as the truth.
I take it though that if you say you are not confused then I must be. A common way of thinking. And it's usually a premature approach and counterproductive, IMO, and experience.
I would suggest though you might want to take care in citing scripture, especially if you do not no its history of production and version. I Timothy 3:16 you cited is a great example. It is flawed and biased towards your way of understanding it I imagine. If I were to show you the earliest version of this verse, that showed a key pivotal word omitted, you would still disagree with it, I also imagine. And for that reason, reasonableness as I perceive it, does not tend to become you I'm afraid. In other words you are set in your ways and no matter what I may write you will essentially ignore it.
If you want I can explain the controversy with 1 Timothy 3:16 for you then to decide its full authenticity. I'm sure you are very interested in this subject.
dak
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This one is close but the problem with the majority of translations is that they are misreading מאת, (which in this case should quite obviously be read as "from Himself" and is explanatory).
בראשית 19:24 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויהוה המטיר על־סדם ועל־עמרה גפרית ואש מאת יהוה מן־השמים׃
And YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah gophriyth and fire, from Himself, YHWH, out of the heavens.
מאת ~ from Himself
Gophriyth is divine (fire), usually rendered as brimstone or sulfur, and is always (including here) rendered as θειον, (divinity), in the Greek text. The text is explaining that the point made here is that it was divine fire, from YHWH Himself, which therefore also has spiritual implications, not that the physical didn't happen, but that although this passage is referencing something that literally-physically happened, (the location of Sodom has even been discovered and proven to be so in recent years), it also has spiritual implications: and we see that divine judgment running through the Prophets also and even in the Apocalypse/Revelation where θειον is employed for brimestone/sulfer, (Luk 17:29, Rev 9:17).
JLB
Well-Known Member
No. Scripture isn't flawed. It's inspired by God. What's flawed is your understanding of it.
Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Sorry that you don't understand plain and clear words of scripture.
Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH
dak
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JM is right: it is a disputed passage, just as are quite a few of the Trinitarian "proof texts".
1 Timothy 3:16 ASV
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 LSV
16 and confessedly, great is the secret of piety: who was revealed in flesh, declared righteous in [the] Spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
1 Timothy 3:16 TS2009
16 And, beyond all question, the secret of reverence is great – who was revealed in the flesh, declared right in Spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in esteem.
1 Timothy 3:16 HRB2012
16 Truly, great is the divine mystery of righteousness: which was revealed in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by cherubs, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
Plenty more divergent readings here:
1 Timothy 3:16 - The Mystery of Godliness
By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.
biblehub.com
Perhaps one day someone will go through all of these disputed "Trinitarian" verses and passages and show how badly such disputed passages are being used to promote various dogmas and agendas.
Yes, this is true ...and yet, you need to take into account that Jesus is the Word, and the Word IS GOD. (John chapter 1)
Scripture lays it out so plainly ...all things were made BY HIM .....the Word. (Refer back to Genesis where we see God the Father, the Word, and the Spirit creating the heavens and the earth.)
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The way the Word puts the whole picture together of who God is, is amazing. Just considering these truths makes my heart and spirit fill with excitement and joy .....His awesomeness is beyond words!!!!!
The creed of Jewish unitary monotheism. Yahweh is his God and his Father.
See the Geneva Bible translation, and all English translations, published prior to 1611.
The Bible of the Protestant Reformation.
All things were made BY IT … the word.
John is thinking back to the Genesis creation in the prologue to his Gospel but he’s a Jewish monotheist - as is Jesus - not a trinitarian. What John wrote in his prologue is supported by and consistent with the post-biblical Apostles’ Creed.
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