Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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HealthyShape

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@TrevorHL @Aunty Jane

FYI, per the updated forum rules, you are not allowed to use the "Christian" label and dispute Trinity, anymore. So, in effect, you should not participate in "Christians only" forum sections.

 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again HealthyShape,
That's a pity, because the true God cannot be fully understood by humans. It is a completely different level of existence/being.
You may be interested in the following excerpts from "History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ" by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905), Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9:
Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54:
… the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Page 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

Speaking of the Nicene Creed:

Page 121:
… the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.

Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.

Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicea.

Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Aunty Jane

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I am not interested in a bulk of a Jehovah Witness nonsense. One claim/sentence, maybe, but not these bulks of Jehovah Witness claims and errors.
I don’t think you have any idea how much error is in your own posts.....basically it’s a case of the heretics accusing others of being heretics. You seem to have difficulty fielding questions....Personally I love Bible questions, especially those that require a bit of research....it’s so rewarding....and also faith strengthening.

But, apparently you only have an attention span for one claim/sentence.....that must make Bible reading difficult for you....
@TrevorHL @Aunty Jane

FYI, per the updated forum rules, you are not allowed to use the "Christian" label and dispute Trinity, anymore. So, in effect, you should not participate in "Christians only" forum sections.

So this is what you resort to when the questions are too hard for you to actually defend your faith.....
Seriously, if the mods have not closed the thread, it’s still open. I trust that they know when to shut things down. It’s not the topic that’s the problem...it’s the civility of the participants....

The reason why this site is so different to others sites is that it’s not an echo chamber......but it’s not really open to atheists and unbelievers either, so all here are basically believers in the Christian Faith. What can be discussed here is an opportunity for some to defend their faith....and thereby strengthen it....for others to abandon bad doctrine when they see it discussed and debated....and still others to compare and make decisions for themselves.....

No one learns anything in an echo chamber.....where there is no challenge, faith can easily be undone.
By our civil exchanges here we can educate others.
 
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HealthyShape

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So this is what you resort to when the questions are too hard for you to actually defend your faith.....
Seriously, if the mods have not closed the thread, it’s still open. I trust that they know when to shut things down. It’s not the topic that’s the problem...it’s the civility of the participants....
It is not about closing the thread, it is about your label "Christian". You can, I guess, open such threads and dispute Trinity in sections that are not "Christians only".

And yes, my attention span to Jehovah Witnesses is very short, I am simply not interested in reading and answering a bulk of nonsense.
 
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HealthyShape

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Greetings again HealthyShape,

You may be interested in the following excerpts from "History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ" by A Reville 1904 ...

Do you need to see some verses that Jesus is God, again? From the first century? Directly from the apostles?

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!""
J 20:28

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 1:8

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:18

"Who [Jesus], existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped"
Phil 2:6
 
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Aunty Jane

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It is not about closing the thread, it is about your label "Christian". You can, I guess, open such threads and dispute Trinity in sections that are not "Christians only".
And who appointed you as my judge? How do you know that God and his Christ consider the majority of those in the divided churches of Christendom, to be “Christian”?

Would you like a list of the things that disqualify the majority of those in Christendom from proving true to the label they wear? Anyone can call themselves “Christians” but it’s what you are, not just what you say.

I came out of Christendom, so I know first hand just how far they have strayed from the truth.

Be careful how you judge, because God will judge you the same way.
Read Matt 7:21-23 and see why Jesus said that “few” would be found on the narrow road to life....it means that the majority are travelling on the wrong road.....food for thought, if you agree with the majority...
 
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amigo de christo

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Yes, and that is why God “sent” his son....because as an immortal, God cannot die.
If Jesus did not die the same death as Adam, then the redemption is not complete and we are still condemned in our sins.
Can mere humans kill God?

I have to correct you Amigo....you want us to sing a song of victory to God, and yet you have adopted a god that Jesus never knew....one created by the RCC. I know you reject much of their teachings, so why accept this one?....or hellfire? Neither are Scriptural.

“The Word became flesh”, but the Word is not “ho theos” (Yahweh)...he is just “theos” meaning that he is God’s “divine” son...”the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14) He is God’s spokesman, and our King and Redeemer....the one who is appointed to lead us back to God....the perfect mediator.

You’re not wrong.....if “the church” (a counterfeit sown by the devil as Jesus said) gradually introduced a new god, one completely alien to the one Jesus came to represent, then all of Christendom has been persuaded to worship the wrong “theos”.... putting the son in his Father’s place.
If those who worship this god are breaking the first Commandment, then that makes them “lawless” in God’s eyes.....which is why Jesus will say.....”I never knew you...depart from me you who practice lawlessness”. (Matt 7:21-23)
When Jesus comes to pass judgment on those who claim him as their “Lord”, it’s the majority whom he rejects, so what belief do the majority hold in common? A primary doctrine that finds no place in Scripture.

If you think the Word is God, then it is all who believe that, who deny that God is who he said he is....the only eternal Being in existence.....and that we can have “no other gods but Yahweh”, who showed himself to be to be THE God of Israel (Deut 6:4)....a singular entity who would send his Messiah to rescue his people first, from sin and death....and thereafter to resurrect all the dead so that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, God’s will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”. What have we been praying for all this time?

God never said he was coming in person, because that is something else God cannot do....to be in his presence would mean what God told Moses....”no man may see me and yet live”. When you understand what a powerful Being Yahweh is, we cannot even look at our sun, (which is just a small one compared to others in the universe)...without doing damage to our eyes. God’s glory would blind us and consume our lives....this is why those who are called to heaven must be given appropriate spirit bodies to dwell with Christ, in the presence of God.

John 1:18 says that “no man has ever seen God”, which contradicts John 1:1, so where is the mistake?
It’s not in the Scripture, but in how John 1:1 is interpreted.
Jesus is God-like...divine in his origins, “the image of the invisible God”. (Col 1:15)...which, if you think about it, who can be the image of someone who is invisible? An image is a reflection, not the real thing.

When you understand that only God is called “ho theos” in the Greek Scriptures, and that Jesus never is, it differentiates the divine son, who was “sent” by his Almighty Father....who is “the Most High over all the earth”. (Psalm 83:18 KJV) Only Yahweh is the Almighty.

The Bible speaks freely of “God the Father” but there is not a single mention of “God the Son” or ”God the Holy Spirit”.....the reason being that they did not exist then and do not exist now.
I do understand if folks cannot grasp the totalitly of the GODHEAD .
However its blasphemy to remove scriptures . SO how come i see a group
that purposefully removed THE to A , removed GOD to a god . Because i do understand
if one d oes not at first grasp the concept of HOW this is possible .
BUT TO PURPOSEFULLY change scripture WAS A FAT LIE And TOTAL blasphemy .
SO if f olks do not understand it , SIMPLY STILL BELIEVE what is written . BUT DONT JW remove it to your own destrution .
Guess what i seem to notice about all the false religoins
Not a one of them BELEIVES the WORD became flesh or was G OD .
Did you know the major problem ISLAM has with christanity.
THEY TOO PREACH quite adamantely JESUS was not GOD , In fact HE was not even THE SON of GOD .
You wanna know why this push to remove the diety of CHRIST
came upon the protestant realm , as of late . cause they DESIRED TO MERGE the religoins
and so OUR JESUS had to b ecome more like the jesus islam knows . OOOPS .
And guess from whence this sprang , IN LARGE from the vatican , the RCC .
aint that something .
 

MonoBiblical

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It is not about closing the thread, it is about your label "Christian". You can, I guess, open such threads and dispute Trinity in sections that are not "Christians only".

And yes, my attention span to Jehovah Witnesses is very short, I am simply not interested in reading and answering a bulk of nonsense.
Be a good boy and have the thread transferred to Unorthodox Doctrine.
 

MonoBiblical

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Greetings again HealthyShape,

One or the other is erroneous. I suggest the KJV is correct as it makes sense while the modern renditions are contradictory.

I prefer a God who has revealed himself and can be understood.

Kind regards
Trevor
Invisible spirits cannot reveal themselves easily.
 

MonoBiblical

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Then when asked his religion, the reply is:
I'M A UNITARIAN DEIST.

BTW, Christians also don't believe in Deism.
Which is why I AM CHRISTIAN would be an incorrect reply.
Ben Franklin was also inconsistent about this. I think he was Calvinist or something trinitarian hencely.
 

Aunty Jane

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I do understand if folks cannot grasp the totalitly of the GODHEAD .
However its blasphemy to remove scriptures . SO how come i see a group
that purposefully removed THE to A , removed GOD to a god . Because i do understand
if one d oes not at first grasp the concept of HOW this is possible .
BUT TO PURPOSEFULLY change scripture WAS A FAT LIE And TOTAL blasphemy .
There is no truth to your accusations Amigo....no one removed or changed anything.....what we did was correct something that was there all along in the Greek....incorrectly translated into English way back, in order to support a doctrine that didn’t become “church” doctrine until hundreds of years after Christ’s death.

What most people do not understand when reading John 1:1 in English, is that it doesn’t say that in Greek.
Do you want to perpetuate an ancient lie, or would you rather investigate an inconvenient truth?
SO if f olks do not understand it , SIMPLY STILL BELIEVE what is written . BUT DONT JW remove it to your own destrution .
And there you have the reason why this doctrine is still “believed” by those who simply swallow what is fed to them without allowing the real facts to speak for themselves. These facts have been hidden for centuries, but in these last days, have been revealed before God, (Yahweh/Jehovah) brings the curtain down on satan’s entire world system. You can see what is coming, but can you look back and see where the rot began?
Guess what i seem to notice about all the false religoins
Not a one of them BELEIVES the WORD became flesh or was G OD .
Can we examine the verse in question, that created this doctrine in its original language? Because for centuries, trinitarian bias in translation, has created a lie about the very nature of God, that is perpetuated to this day, and which will lead the majority to their destruction.....the devil will never allow God’s truth to be accepted by the masses, whom he has had completely under his control since time immemorial.

Look back in Bible history and realise that God’s people have always been a minority....never a majority. The devil has the majority, and his favourite tactic is mimicry.

Look back to the first century and see that Jesus and his disciples were a hated minority....did that make what they taught, wrong? Or was it that satan used the corrupted religious system back then to dissuade the majority from following him, and actually listening to his teachings? Prejudice is an ugly thing, and breeds iniquity. In Jesus’ case it led to murder.

So John 1:1 needs to be read and understood in the language of the day....

Here is the Mounce Interlinear translation...word for word....read it carefully...

“In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros ·ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.”

You will see the word “ho” means “the” so we have “ho logos” and “ho theos” plainly stated there....but with the second mention of “theos”, there is no definite article “ho”.

Since the Jews had stopped speaking the divine name, (Yahweh/Jehovah) in Greek (a culture with many gods, who all had names) the only way to identify this nameless God of the Jews was to call him “THE God”.....”ho theos”.

Examine the verse and see how many times “ho theos” is used, and when “theos” alone is used. These have two different meanings when God and his son are mentioned in the same verse. They are differentiated because Jesus is never once called “ho theos”. Which means that in Greek, Jesus is never called Yahweh/Jehovah, “God” with a capital “G”.

Correctly translated John 1:1 should read....
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine”.

Once you understand that ignoring that very little word (hardly noticed by those who have been indoctrinated with trinitarian theology) changes the entire meaning of the verse, you can then see other verses where it is also ignored or mistranslated. (John 10:31-36 in Greek is a case in point)

It also explains how the Son can be “with” his Father, and has been from his beginning. (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14)
God is an immortal, eternal Being who had no “beginning”.

It is the Word (theos) who became flesh, not “ho theos”.

Rendering “theos” as “a god” is also correct, not because Jesus is some kind of lesser God, but because of his divine origins....it simply means that he was God-like...and who can deny that?

The word “theos” in Greek can mean any god, goddess or divine personage, as Jesus demonstrated in John 10:31-36, where he pointed out that God himself called human judges “gods” (theos) meaning that they were divinely appointed to act on God’s behalf.
“Theos” isn’t another word for Yahweh...it is a general term for divine beings or those appointed by God for a specific purpose.

Satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4, so we know that it doesn’t just mean Yahweh.
Did you know the major problem ISLAM has with christanity.
THEY TOO PREACH quite adamantely JESUS was not GOD , In fact HE was not even THE SON of GOD .
You wanna know why this push to remove the diety of CHRIST
came upon the protestant realm , as of late . cause they DESIRED TO MERGE the religoins
and so OUR JESUS had to b ecome more like the jesus islam knows . OOOPS .
And guess from whence this sprang , IN LARGE from the vatican , the RCC .
aint that something .
It’s a shame that you recognize so clearly the role of the RCC in the corrupting of the Christian Faith, but it isn’t a recent thing.......the corruption goes way back...so if you fail to remove their primary doctrines from your beliefs.....the trinity, immortality of the soul, and hellfire are a corruption of everything Jesus taught about the nature of his Father and their relationship, as well as the resurrection.....which is a return to life, not a continuation of it. The dead do not go on living. They “sleep” unconsciously in death, as the Scriptures clearly state. (Ecco 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14)

Hellfire is devilish.....and paints God as cruel and sadistic....he has no reason to keep the wicked alive only to torture them in flames forever.....death was the highest penalty one could pay for any crime committed in Israel....the incorrigibly wicked will simply not be included in the resurrection that Jesus himself will conduct. (John 5:28-29) The “hell” that Jesus spoke about was “Gehenna” which to his Jewish audience meant no resurrection.....eternal death.

If only people would undertake a study of the Bible, rather than the distorted picture that is painted by the multitude of church systems....which bear no resemblance to God’s truth, at all.

Those who know how the devil works will not be taken in by his deceptions any longer....in these last days, God will “draw” them to his truth (John 6:44; 65)....he wants quality not quantity....which is why “few” will be found on the road to life....(Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) Be aware of the danger in holding a majority view. The majority will be found on the wrong road....blissfully ignorant of their destination....shocked at Jesus’ complete rejection as those he “never knew”.

Its time to wake up.....
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again MonoBiblical,
Invisible spirits cannot reveal themselves easily.
The problem is more on the other side. God has revealed himself and the faithful understand what he has revealed. God has no limitation, but most of mankind are oblivious to what is revealed. This is part of the theme of Isaiah's message that despite the clear teaching of Isaiah, Israel as a result would become increasing oblivious, blind and hardened and would eventually go into captivity.

Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

These words that are speaking of Isaiah's time are taken up and applied in their fullness to the ministry of Jesus, and his contemporaries became hardened and crucified their Saviour. But the disciples of Isaiah and Jesus understood God's revelation in and through Isaiah and Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Aunty Jane

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It was a story, but Samaritan meant idolater back then.
The illustration of the “Good Samaritan” was Jesus sticking it to the Pharisees, whom Jesus used in his parable as those walking on by and offering no assistance to the injured man.

What escapes many in this illustration is that the man was stripped of his clothing....meaning that there was no way to identify him by his distinctive clothing, as a fellow Jew warranting their assistance.....which would never be offered to a hated Samaritan. So just in case he was, they ignored his plight.

The Samaritan didn’t care about the man’s nationality, but simply saw a fellow human in need of assistance that he could provide. The hated Samaritan was the hero of the story, because the injured man was his neighbor....(covered under God’s Law).....and Jesus beautifully illustrated who our neighbor is.....it’s not their religion or nationality that has anything to do with human kindness and compassion that can be offered to anyone in need. If you have the circumstances, which the Samaritan did, paying the inn keeper for the man’s accommodation and food, and offering more if necessary, when he returned. He didn’t stay around to help him after the rescue, as he may have had pressing commitments elsewhere, but he did all he could under the circumstances.....and that is the model.
 
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MonoBiblical

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What escapes many in this illustration is that the man was stripped of his clothing....meaning that there was no way to identify him by his distinctive clothing, as a fellow Jew warranting their assistance.....which would never be offered to a hated Samaritan. So just in case he was, they ignored his plight.
The Samaritan was doing something only Israelites have been known for. The man seems to be stripped of shelter or armor, not of clothes. You pretend it is more shocking than it really is. You have a Levite and Priest who are trained to help people like that. They did nothing, and it was a believable comparison.
 

Wrangler

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Perhaps the problem is that you do NOT believe John?

John said that the WORD was with God and was God.
I believe John, who wrote at 20:31 the purpose of his Gospel is so we may believe Jesus is the Christ.

John did write that the WORD was with God and was God - but didn’t write that Jesus is God. Have you ever considered how anything can be WITH a thing and BE that same thing?
 

MonoBiblical

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I believe John, who wrote at 20:31 the purpose of his Gospel is so we may believe Jesus is the Christ.

John did write that the WORD was with God and was God - but didn’t write that Jesus is God. Have you ever considered how anything can be WITH a thing and BE that same thing?
I find it interesting that even the Stoics thought the word was divine and only the names of gods.
 

ScottA

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If a person is going to define themselves as Christian...
then he must adhere, at the very least, to the basic Christian tenets.

I find it problematic that a person can call themselves a Christian and yet believe that Jesus is not God,,,
which, basically, would be idolatry...

And why would anyone want to follow a man who thought He was God?

So why do we debate the Trinity on these forums?

I found the following on my feed from YouTube.
Sorry, I don't know how to cut.

Wes Huff perfectly explains and supports my position.
Not because Christianity requires Wes Huff to explain its belief system...
It's been there all along - from the beginning.

Mike Winger and Wes Huff
Point 35.15

I've been avoiding this one.

People think like people--like the world, and many can't even imagine God being greater and able to come in His own image. That just shows the level that one is able think. I didn't want to have to say that.

John 1:14 is quite clear: "The Word (which was God) became flesh."
 
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MonoBiblical

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Ειδωλ eidOl transliterated idol means figure in Greek. Latrea means worship. God never made himself to be a human figure.
 

MonoBiblical

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I've been avoiding this one.

People think like people--like the world, and many can't even imagine God being greater and able to come in His own image. That just shows the level that one is able think. I didn't want to have to say that.

John 1:14 is quite clear: "The Word (which was God) became flesh."
What you say would be correct, but the word of the God is the name YHWH, and John seems to call the Father the word in 1 John 5:7. Morely, the trouble is that the Greek determiner as well as the Hebrew article and articular construct are not definitive articles. All words were definitive without the article.
 
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