Reason for The Crusades explained

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Matthias

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I always heard negative things about The Crusades.

Good on your teachers.

Never did anyone teach that the Muslims did horrible atrocities to the Christians which finally started the Crusades hundreds of years after Muslim torture, kidnapping and murder in Christian lands.

That is the fault of the teachers whom you listened to. In that regard, they didn’t do good.

Shall we now act like the Muslims? The Crusaders did.

Shall we now label those who refuse to kill their enemies “antiChristian” and “men in form but not in substance”?

The revolting unitarian is teaching us that the disciples of Jesus must be armed, ready to kill. (I would quote him for you but I’ve already done that so many times that he doesn’t deny it, and it has made little difference anyway when I have.) Where are your arms? Are you ready to kill? Or are you ready to put down your sword and stand with the apostles and the earliest Christians, even to the point of suffering death at the hands of those who wont?
 

Matthias

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The Crusades of today still exist.

The Messiah will put a stop to them when he returns. Until then, which is to say, while we wait for him - something which the unitarian pointedly said that he would not do and Christians must not do - what are disciples of Jesus supposed to be doing?

***

For the record, no one should get the idea from reading my posts that - because I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Son of the living God - I’m uncritical of unitarians / unitarianism. That would be a great misunderstanding of my position.
 

Aunty Jane

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So you are one of them? Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Yes, a choice I made over 50 years ago and have never regretted.
I looked it up and their main position is that,
The Trinity is not accepted.
Political neutrality,Not to participate in politics, economy, military affairs or patriotic activities.
Do not wear a cross.

Not participating in blood donation activities.

ETC....no smoke....
We try to follow the Bible in all we believe....just the Bible.
I smoke....... So I am not one of J'W.
I know smoke is not good for health, but I live here on earth, I should have my enjoy time.
I don't want to live for a long time here on earth.
We don’t smoke because of the addictive nature of tobacco products. It’s not the tobacco itself, as nicotine is actually very good medicine, like cannabis, but it’s what goes with these things that causes harm. Tobacco companies mix a lot of addictive chemicals in with their cigarettes to make sure of repeat business.

Alcohol is also addictive in certain individuals and so moderation in all things is the balanced approach.

If we know that something is adversely affecting our health and we continue to use it, to us that is desecrating God’s creation. Treating the gift of life with no respect to its Maker.

We can enjoy the life God has given us, but without disrespecting God or ignoring our original purpose in being put here on this earth....this will be reinstated, but not to those who show no respect...the coming of God’s Kingdom ensures that we humans will resume our place here, and carry out the will of God for all eternity as it was originally intended.

What do you see as our role here soberxp?
 

Hazelelponi

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@Hazelelponi would you please address the “give to Caesar [who was not a Christian] what belongs to Caesar without any regard for what Jesus and the apostles taught / teach disciples to do” argument made by the guffawing unitarian?

The appeal to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” as though it requires Christian political passivity misunderstands both history and Scripture.

Around 200 CE, more than 150 years after Christ’s resurrection, there were perhaps 150,000 Christians in the entire world. They lived under emperors and governors who ruled as absolute authorities. Christians had no vote, no voice, and no capacity to restrain evil through civil means. When they suffered, it was not because they chose evil, but because they had no lawful alternative.

That historical reality matters.

Today, by contrast, there are over 2 billion people who profess Christ. Not all are regenerate—this is the visible church—but the difference in scale is enormous. Christians now live in societies where they do have civic agency. That changes the nature of responsibility.

Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, but Christians do not cease to be neighbors, citizens, or moral agents while living in it.

When Jesus said,

“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s”
(Matthew 22:21, NASB95)

He was not sanctifying tyranny, nor commanding moral indifference. He was rejecting revolutionary violence while affirming order under a tyrannical regime. The apostles taught the same:

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities… for rulers are servants of God.”
(Romans 13:1–4, NASB95)

Romans 13 is not a description of whatever a corrupt government happens to do. It is a normative description of what government is for: to punish evil and praise good. When Christians have the ability to influence government toward that God-given purpose, refusing to do so is not piety—it is negligence.

Scripture is explicit that failing to act for the good of those under our care is sin:

“So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin.”
(James 4:17, NASB95)

To argue that Christians must politically abdicate today because first-century Christians lived under Caesar is to confuse necessity with virtue. Early Christians endured evil they could not prevent. That is not the same as enabling evil when restraint is possible.

You do not “give to Caesar” by voting for injustice.
You do not honor God by serving your neighbors up to harm so you can play at martyrdom.

Love of neighbor requires moral responsibility, not withdrawal.

“Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
(Romans 13:10, NASB95)

Nothing we do will be perfect—man is fallen—but Christians are not called to surrender society to Satan when lawful means exist to pursue justice, peace, and protection of the innocent.

Submission to authority does not mean surrendering conscience.
Faithfulness does not mean abdication.
And martyrdom is not something Christians are called to manufacture.
 

Wrangler

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Two expressions that you have used more than once, are....“overly spiritualized” and “soulful behaviour”.

Would you care to define those two expressions as they pertain to Scripture and the commands of the Christ, as I cannot seem to find them, or any reference to either of them....
No. No definition. But a description.

Overly spiritualized is when there is an unbalance of attention to the spirit over the soulful needs. For instance, Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesars. One who is overly spiritualized disregards - or treats as contemptuously corrupt - the part of the command that is put first and only focused on the 2nd part of what Jesus said in that verse. To paraphrase Jesus, AS A GENERAL RULE, we should give to the government, what is the governments. Exceptions regarding corruption, etc, don't change the rule but this is the presumption (and hallmark) of the overly spiritualized.

There are countless examples of this although often subtle in being manifested. On other sites, I've asked if the Bible offers ANY guidance on the top 20 issues of the day. The “overly spiritualized” scoff at such questions, reinforcing the obvious conclusion that they've made themselves irrelevant.

I don't recall using the term “soulful behaviour" in the same vein. However, its respecting human being's bodily needs here and now which Christ affirmed in such acts as feeding the 5,000 and many acts of physical healing. I wrote a detailed analysis of this whole topic of the Crusades but suffice it to say in this exchange the need (and command) to do justice. It was heart breaking for me to learn that Rob Reiner and his wife were murdered this weekend by his own son. His son is now in custody, an act of justice. There is no good, happy ending to this story. It is a lament.

I grew up with Rob Reiner in his role on All In The Family. I sigh deeply w.r.t. what must be done to his son for the sake of justice. It's not all grace and mercy, which the overly spiritualized seem to suppose. You and @Matthias seem to put yourselves on a moral high ground, where such soulful behavior as what must be done to Nick Reiner, justice, is beneath you.

While none of us are personally acting for the cause of justice in this case, there are agents working on my behalf, as an American in a Christian nation, and God's behalf regarding justice. It seem too beneath you to acknowledge the dirty work of justice. The overly spiritualized talk as if the totality of life is love, forgiveness and mercy. It's not! Such a world view is not balanced! Sometimes, you got to:
  • kick ass, as Jesus did in overturning tables and whipping at people;
  • kill the invaders, as the Crusaders did;
  • and lock people up for the rest of their lives, as will happen to Rob and Michele Reiners son.
Soulful behavior is often not pretty. It doesn't make you feel good. However, it is a necessary and practical part of life here on Earth. We cannot forget that. Jesus was the son of God and he literally washed people's feet. Soulful behavior.
 

Matthias

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The appeal to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” as though it requires Christian political passivity misunderstands both history and Scripture.

Around 200 CE, more than 150 years after Christ’s resurrection, there were perhaps 150,000 Christians in the entire world. They lived under emperors and governors who ruled as absolute authorities. Christians had no vote, no voice, and no capacity to restrain evil through civil means. When they suffered, it was not because they chose evil, but because they had no lawful alternative.

That historical reality matters.

They obeyed Caesar whenever they could do so without violating the teaching and preaching of Jesus and the apostles. Would you say that they were “antiChristian” and “men in form and not in substance” for not wielding the sword against their enemies?

Today, by contrast, there are over 2 billion people who profess Christ. Not all are regenerate—this is the visible church—but the difference in scale is enormous. Christians now live in societies where they do have civic agency. That changes the nature of responsibility.

Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, but Christians do not cease to be neighbors, citizens, or moral agents while living in it.

That’s right. I myself worked (as a civil / environmental engineer) for over thirty years in civil service. I took my responsibility seriously, even when Christian managers ordered me to falsify reports (which would have enriched the Christian politicians whom they were obedient too and resulted in harm to citizens, which the mangers and politicians knew fully well would happen had I done as ordered.)

When Jesus said,

“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s”
(Matthew 22:21, NASB95)

He was not sanctifying tyranny, nor commanding moral indifference. He was rejecting revolutionary violence while affirming order under a tyrannical regime. The apostles taught the same:

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities… for rulers are servants of God.”
(Romans 13:1–4, NASB95)

Romans 13 is not a description of whatever a corrupt government happens to do. It is a normative description of what government is for: to punish evil and praise good. When Christians have the ability to influence government toward that God-given purpose, refusing to do so is not piety—it is negligence.

Scripture is explicit that failing to act for the good of those under our care is sin:

“So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin.”
(James 4:17, NASB95)

To argue that Christians must politically abdicate today because first-century Christians lived under Caesar is to confuse necessity with virtue. Early Christians endured evil they could not prevent. That is not the same as enabling evil when restraint is possible.

I agree. Christians liberty, though, still has certain limitations.

Do you believe, as the unitarian is teaching us, that all disciples of Jesus since the time of Jesus were commanded to use the sword against their enemies? Does the logic of his argument require the apostles and the earliest Christians to wield the sword, regardless of their numerical disadvantage, against the pagan Roman government?

Nero was certainly evil and an enemy of Christianity. Christians living under his rule - allegedly commanded by Jesus to use their swords against all of their enemies - did not take up the sword against him because they couldn’t vote him out of office. Being heavily outnumbered and out armed by Nero wasn’t the reason they didn’t kill him and his soldiers. The reason they didn’t kill him was what?

You do not “give to Caesar” by voting for injustice.
You do not honor God by serving your neighbors up to harm so you can play at martyrdom.

Love of neighbor requires moral responsibility, not withdrawal.

“Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
(Romans 13:10, NASB95)

Nothing we do will be perfect—man is fallen—but Christians are not called to surrender society to Satan when lawful means exist to pursue justice, peace, and protection of the innocent.

Submission to authority does not mean surrendering conscience.

The unitarian requires conscientious objectors to surrender their conscience to Caesar.

Faithfulness does not mean abdication.
And martyrdom is not something Christians are called to manufacture.

There are non-lethal ways for a follower of Jesus to defend himself, his family and his neighbor. Disciples of Jesus have employed them for two millennia. Those ways might or might not result in martyrdom. In either event, they remained / remain faithful followers of Jesus.
 
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Matthias

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Have fun with that, …


It isn’t “fun” standing against the worldly-minded unitarian. He has surrendered his conscience to Caesar. It is my responsibility, the moral responsibility of all who “accept and believe in the Scriptures,” to oppose him in this matter.

…, I accept and believe in the Scriptures. We all have our proclivities I guess.
 

Matthias

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Roman Catholics are allowed by the Catholic Church to be conscientious objectors. The Crusaders, obviously, were not conscientious objectors. They were a ruthless Roman Catholic killing machine - and they used the sword to kill Muslims, Jews, and fellow Christians.
 

soberxp

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Yes, a choice I made over years ago and have never regretted.

We try to follow the Bible in all we believe....just the Bible.

We don’t smoke because of the addictive nature of tobacco products. It’s not the tobacco itself, as nicotine is actually very good medicine, like cannabis, but it’s what goes with these things that causes harm. Tobacco companies mix a lot of addictive chemicals in with their cigarettes to make sure of repeat business.

Alcohol is also addictive in certain individuals and so moderation in all things is the balanced approach.

If we know that something is adversely affecting our health and we continue to use it, to us that is desecrating God’s creation. Treating the gift of life with no respect to its Maker.

We can enjoy the life God has given us, but without disrespecting God or ignoring our original purpose in being put here on this earth....this will be reinstated, but not to those who show no respect...the coming of God’s Kingdom ensures that we humans will resume our place here, and carry out the will of God for all eternity as it was originally intended.
Okay.
What do you see as our role here soberxp?
Study and maybe enjoy it,maybe not,maybe hate the world that do the opposite of God.
But we are not under the law,
Everything we could do but not everything Be beneficial.

Hard to tell what really Is our role here, a game player??? Watchman??? Or observer???
Believer???Rebellious?

I wish I could skip this earthly time and fast-forward to the time of the trial. Or perhaps I don't know exactly what I will face. Is it the world I expect, or the world that God expects? It's hard to imagine what the difference is between them. My thoughts are limited.

Perhaps the most important thing is our consistent mindset when facing God. Only by maintaining this consistent self can God correctly prepare what we need for the future. Don't wait until your fantasies become unrealistic delusions. When God has prepared it, and yet you are still not satisfied.
 
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Triumph1300

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Sure laugh as much as you like, Wrangler
I guess you would have been a faithful guard in the German concentration camps.
But it's not a laughing matter as you seem to think.
---------------------

While Christians are called to submit to governing authorities, there are times when government actions conflict with Christian beliefs and/or values.

In these cases, Christians must navigate between obedience to authority and obedience to God.
And that sums it up, Wrangler.
 

Matthias

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“As the Bible says, ‘Because of you we are being killed all day long; we are regarded as sheep destined for slaughter.’”

(Romans 8:36, NTFE)

That was true in the days of the pagan Roman Empire. It is true in the days of Islam. It is true of faithful disciples through the centuries and will be true until the Messiah himself returns.

Neither the apostles nor the earliest Christians were “sheep armed with the weapons of the world”. Many Christians today are not like the apostles and the earliest Christians; they have become slaughterers of their enemies.
 

Matthias

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The unitarian slaughterer of his enemies has it wrong: Christians who do not kill their enemies have not placed themselves on a moral high ground; they have been placed on the moral high ground by the Messiah.

Christians, don’t slaughter your enemies; witness to them. Leave the slaughtering to them. Be willing to be regarded by them as sheep to be slaughtered, for the sake of the Messiah.
 
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Debp

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If we want violent Christianity to act like violent Islam, then we want violence, not peace.

I hope none of us ever see the time when we are called upon to defend someone from a violent criminal.

Of course it all depends on what the Lord leads us to do at the time.

When my mom was a cashier at a cafeteria, a criminal held a sawed off shotgun to her abdomen. She grabbed the gun and pushed it downwards, all the while yelling "Jesus is Lord!" Customers all flew under the tables. Finally when her manager came around the corner, the gunman fled after ripping my mom's blouse down her arm.

She fought because she sensed he would kill her.

Now when I was walking home from work in the dark years ago...a guy suddenly approached me and stuck what appeared to be a weapon in my ribs demanding my purse. From deep within me in a bold voice came "in Jesus name!" The guy's mouth dropped open and he apologized and I told him to get help from a ministry for young men. Then he fled down the street.
 
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Matthias

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Christianity has drifted far from the Christianity of the apostles and the early Christians. The current of worldly violence has swept it into the thing which primitive Christianity deplores - and the devil is behind it.
 
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Matthias

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I hope none of us ever see the time when we are called upon to defend someone from a violent criminal.

We should be prepared beforehand how to act if we see that time unfolding in our presence.

Of course it all depends on what the Lord leads us to do at the time.

The Lord does not lead us to use the sword against our enemies.

When my mom was a cashier at a cafeteria, a criminal held a sawed off shotgun to her abdomen. She grabbed the gun and pushed it downwards, all the while yelling "Jesus is Lord!" Customers all flew under the tables. Finally when her manager came around the corner, the gunman fled after ripping my mom's blouse down her arm.

She fought because she sensed he would kill her.

Your mother did not use the sword against her enemy.

Now when I was walking home from work in the dark years ago...a guy suddenly approached me and stuck what appeared to be a weapon in my ribs demanding my purse. From deep within me in a bold voice came "in Jesus name!" The guy's mouth dropped open and he apologized and I told him to get help from a ministry for young men. Then he fled down the street.

You did not use the sword against your enemy. You acted like the Messiah and apostles, giving him a chance - a chance he might not have had if you had used the sword against him - to become a follower of Jesus.

Why is it hard for you to say to the one who is teaching us “you are not a disciple of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” that his teaching is false?
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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I'm not convinced at all that the crusades was ever a Christian enterprise.

Converting by the sword is never "Christian" especially when they are forcing people to convert to cults like catholicism and reformed theology both of which are not biblical.
 

Matthias

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If your enemies rape your daughter, offer them another and say thank you, would you like to go after my other?

Welcome to the forum, and no.

She would be perfect for 55 year dirty Muhammad, she is only 9. Muhammad spoke of great forgiveness and he ordered the killing by rocks from the women of his muhammadite fighters if they freaked out.

I’m not defending Muhammad.