What is the difference between the gospel to the Jews and the gospel to the gentiles?

[Wick Stick]

>> Repentance is included in Abraham's story. "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

That doesn't sound like repentance to me. What was he repenting of?

Sounds like you need to update your definition for 'repentance.'

That word means "to think the same" or "agree." Even if one isn't doing wrong, agreement with God is still necessary, and that takes an act of volition - repentance.

 

[St. SteVen]

There is one Gospel, through there are multiple ways of describing it that all boil down to the message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. For example, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

This strikes me as the gospel for the Jews, mentioned in the topic title.

Acts 21:20 NIV
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul:
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law.

 

[Soyeong]

This strikes me as the gospel for the Jews, mentioned in the topic title.

Acts 21:20 NIV
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul:
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law.

Indeed, that is the Gospel for the Jews, which I showed is the same as the Gospel that Paul taught to Gentiles (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Likewise, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in Romans 15:18-19, his Gospel involved brining Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed. In Romans 10:16, 1 Peter 4:17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, they all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

 

[St. SteVen]

>> Repentance is included in Abraham's story. "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Sounds like you need to update your definition for 'repentance.'

That word means "to think the same" or "agree." Even if one isn't doing wrong, agreement with God is still necessary, and that takes an act of volition - repentance.

I include the "turning" aspect in my definition. Something Abraham didn't need to do. ???

• Ezekiel 14:6
  “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30
  “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
  
  
• Acts 3:19
  Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
  
  
• Acts 20:21
  I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
  
  
• Acts 26:20
  First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

 

[St. SteVen]

Indeed, that is the Gospel for the Jews, which I showed is the same as the Gospel that Paul taught to Gentiles (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Likewise, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in Romans 15:18-19, his Gospel involved brining Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed. In Romans 10:16, 1 Peter 4:17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, they all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

Paul also taught that we are not under the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul also taught that we are not under the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

A child no longer needs a guardian to help them cross a busy streets safely when they've been taught how to do that on their own, but that is not the same as having no more need to cross busy streets safely. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after their purpose has been fulfilled would be missing the whole point of a tutor. A student does not move on to algebra by disregarding everything that they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. The reason why God's law leads us to Christ is not so that we can then disregard everything that he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Jesus did not come with the message that we should stop repenting because God's law has ended now that he has come and we are now free to become doers of wickedness, but rather he came with the message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

In Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, and children of Abraham and heirs of the promise is all direct connected with being a doer of God's law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him. If someone interprets Paul was speaking against being a follower of Christ, then they should either conclude they have misunderstood him or that they should follow Christ instead of Paul.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question.

When God instructs me to perform a miracle, He also empowers me.
Therefore I can indeed raise the dead when instructed and empowered to do so.
We should always obey Jesus. Especially His direct orders.

My point was that if you take all His instruction in general, no one has measured up.
In total, it's a tall order.

This is what you stated:

"obey the Son"
That's a tall order.

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons.
Freely you have received; freely give.



What you stated is that obeying the Son is a tall order and then proceeded to give examples using Matthew 10.
In Matthew 10 Jesus was instructing the APOSTLES.....


Here is what Jesus said to US about obeying Him:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."


John 15:10-11
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.


Throughout His ministry Jesus taught that we are to obey Him.
I can't recall anywhere where Jesus told His disciples to raise the dead and to perform miracles.

He did tell the Apostles to do this in Matthew 10 when they were sent out to preach and teach.

 

[GodsGrace]

Miracles are listed among the manifestations of the Spirit (gifts) in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.
The list is for the whole church even today.

An apostle is a "sent out one". Are you an apostle?

Neither one of us is an Apostle.
Do you realize that this is a special designation meant ONLY for those that walked with Jesus?

Do you realize that to be included in the NT, the writer had to have known Jesus or an Apostle?

Because you witness does not make you an Apostle.
Because a person can perform a miracle by the power of God does not make him an Apostle.

You cannot raise the dead nor can you exorcise a demon.

 

[Wick Stick]

I include the "turning" aspect in my definition. Something Abraham didn't need to do. ???

• Ezekiel 14:6
  “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30
  “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
  
  
• Acts 3:19
  Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
  
  
• Acts 20:21
  I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
  
  
• Acts 26:20
  First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

You won't find it in the Bible, but Jewish tradition records several stories of Abraham's youth. Per tradition...

Abraham's daddy was an idol-maker by trade. At some point, Abraham became convinced of the worthlessness of idols of stone, wood, and metal. He forsook the family business and his inheritance to preach AGAINST idolatry. When he smashed the idols there, he was marked for execution by burning, before God delivered him, and sent him AWAY.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

I don't know how reliable the traditions are, but it seems there may have been some turning.

 

[GodsGrace]

You won't find it in the Bible, but Jewish tradition records several stories of Abraham's youth. Per tradition...

Abraham's daddy was an idol-maker by trade. At some point, Abraham became convinced of the worthlessness of idols of stone, wood, and metal. He forsook the family business and his inheritance to preach AGAINST idolatry. When he smashed the idols there, he was marked for execution by burning, before God delivered him, and sent him AWAY.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

I don't know how reliable the traditions are, but it seems there may have been some turning.

So could we accept Catholic tradition too ??
Sounds like Abraham ran FROM something and not TO something.

What say you?

 

[St. SteVen]

Abraham's daddy was an idol-maker by trade. At some point, Abraham became convinced of the worthlessness of idols of stone, wood, and metal. He forsook the family business and his inheritance to preach AGAINST idolatry. When he smashed the idols there, he was marked for execution by burning, before God delivered him, and sent him AWAY.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

That's interesting.
Prior to Genesis chapter 12 all we know about Abram was his genealogy.
Then God speaks to him. (according to the biblical narrative)

 

[Wick Stick]

So could we accept Catholic tradition too ??

2000+ years of it as a whole, without question? Definitely not.

Selected bits from the early church? Probably so. The Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, and Shepherd of Hermas should be books the church studies, even if they're not canon. Fox' Book of Martyrs, too.

Sounds like Abraham ran FROM something and not TO something.

If the story is true, then Abraham ran FROM Urfa to Haran - about 30 miles. At God's instruction, he later ran TO Canaan - about 600 miles.

What say you?

The reliability of extra-Biblical stories varies enormously. This one is more credible than most, because we have copies of it among the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as its inclusion among the earliest Jewish commentaries, and it's even independently attested in Islamic tradition. The story also doesn't contradict Scripture to the best of my knowledge.

Even so, there's an enormous gap of time between the life of Abraham, and our earliest copies of this story.

 

[GodsGrace]

2000+ years of it as a whole, without question? Definitely not.

Agreed.

Selected bits from the early church? Probably so. The Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, and Shepherd of Hermas should be books the church studies, even if they're not canon. Fox' Book of Martyrs, too.

Agreed.
As you must know...the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabas (not to be confused with the gospel of barnabas) almost made it into the NT. (canon).
Never read Fox' Book of Martyrs...sounds like I should have.

If the story is true, then Abraham ran FROM Urfa to Haran - about 30 miles. At God's instruction, he later ran TO Canaan - about 600 miles.

Yes sir. This was his entire trip.
He did dislike all that idol worship in Ur. (why Urfa??)

Great explanation !

The reliability of extra-Biblical stories varies enormously. This one is more credible than most, because we have copies of it among the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as its inclusion among the earliest Jewish commentaries, and it's even independently attested in Islamic tradition. The story also doesn't contradict Scripture to the best of my knowledge.

Sounds historical too .... re the idol worship in that region.

I don't like extra-biblical STORIES (OK with writings).
If it was in the Dead Sea Scrolls it could mean that it was lost in the original story of Abraham.
We know some Christian history because others wrote about the teachings of someone whose writings have been lost.

Even so, there's an enormous gap of time between the life of Abraham, and our earliest copies of this story.

Yes sir.
Thanks for opening my eyes to something new.

 

[Brakelite]

I'm of a mind that God called Abraham out of his father's house and land because God had a purpose for Abraham that would be compromised by idolatry and family ties. Jewish traditions that embellished the narrative are similar to Catholic embellishments to history, such as Saint Patrick's visit to Rome and the theft of certain relics etc. I think it far safer just to accept the written word without the human hyperbole and Chinese whispers that unbelievers think need to be added in order for the narrative to be more believable.

God's calling of Abraham to come out of Babylon isn't a one off. It is a calling echoed throughout Scripture and applies to us all.

“16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. ”
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

We may not be ancestors of Messiah, but we are called nevertheless to make the same sacrifices and become faithful servants and children of God as was Abraham.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm of a mind that God called Abraham out of his father's house and land because God had a purpose for Abraham that would be compromised by idolatry and family ties. Jewish traditions that embellished the narrative are similar to Catholic embellishments to history, such as Saint Patrick's visit to Rome and the theft of certain relics etc. I think it far safer just to accept the written word without the human hyperbole and Chinese whispers that unbelievers think need to be added in order for the narrative to be more believable.

God's calling of Abraham to come out of Babylon isn't a one off. It is a calling echoed throughout Scripture and applies to us all.

“16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. ”
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

We may not be ancestors of Messiah, but we are called nevertheless to make the same sacrifices and become faithful servants and children of God as was Abraham.

If you read about an accident in a newspaper and then spoke to someone who told you that they witnesses the accident, but they couldn't tell you any information beyond what was written in the newspaper, then you might question whether they witnesses it, so we should expect there to be more information beyond what is written that was passed down orally. It doesn't mean that we should assume that it is factual but it doesn't mean that we should assume that it is embellishments either. The authors of the Bible referred to these traditions such as with Jannes and Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) or with Isaac (Hebrews 11:19). The game of Chinese whispers is designed to garble the message for entertainment, so it has rules like that you have to whisper the message and you can only say it once, so there is no good reason to compare it to how oral traditions are transmitted.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm of a mind that God called Abraham out of his father's house and land because God had a purpose for Abraham that would be compromised by idolatry and family ties.

Certainly, Abraham was called out of Ur to establish a new religion...
to establish the new teaching that there is only one God and to introduce that new God.
To start fresh,,,,sometimes a person has to leave their current invironment.

Jewish traditions that embellished the narrative are similar to Catholic embellishments to history, such as Saint Patrick's visit to Rome and the theft of certain relics etc.

I don't think a tradition is the same as an embellishment.


TRADITION

1. the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
   "members of different castes have by tradition been associated with specific occupations"
   
   
   
   
   
2. 2.
   Theology
   a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures.
   
   
   

EMBELLISH

make (something) more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features.
"blue silk embellished with golden embroidery"

• make (a smtatement or story) more interesting by adding extra details that are often untrue.
  "followers often embellish stories about their heroes"

It seems to me that a tradition CAN be correct....can be true....
An embellishment is definitely not true...whatever is added to the original would be false.

I think it far safer just to accept the written word without the human hyperbole and Chinese whispers that unbelievers think need to be added in order for the narrative to be more believable.

The problem is that not everything is explained completely in the written word....
or, at least, it would require some explanation.

I'd say that the outside source MUST BE RECONCILED/FOUND/AGREE with the written word.

God's calling of Abraham to come out of Babylon isn't a one off. It is a calling echoed throughout Scripture and applies to us all.

Agreed.
I'm sure we all make sacrifices for our faith.

“16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. ”
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

We may not be ancestors of Messiah, but we are called nevertheless to make the same sacrifices and become faithful servants and children of God as was Abraham.

Agreed.

We're in agreement...just some extra thoughts.

 

[Jack]

Verily verily i say unto thee , OH but he knows EXACTLY why he is on this forum .
TO PLANT doubts and lead in his own crusade this peoples into the inclusive realm
from which if a man do enter he has entered into a covenenant of second death only .
Only he dont realize this . TO this people who is decieved and have been decieved
by this UNBELEIF path , they simply see it as the love of GOD that has made the path to him
VERY broad indeed .

Well said!!!

 

[St. SteVen]

but it stillhurts to sit

Welcome to the forum.
I agree that it's a pain in the a$$.

 

[Wick Stick]

(why Urfa??)

There were two cities named Ur in the Middle Bronze Age. Saying Urfa distinguishes which one I think is correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

There were two cities named Ur in the Middle Bronze Age. Saying Urfa distinguishes which one I think is correct.

Interesting. You most probably know that:

There were also two Bethlehems at the time Jesus was born.
One was in Judea and one in Galilea.

Micah 5:2
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

Bethlehem Ephratah would be the one near Jerusalem.