Commerce or Faith

[amigo de christo]

Not nice. I don't like that. It has nothing at all to do with my thread.

Its abomination . i have exposed that character at several places .

 

[Nancy]

cash flow increases are you listening
as false love be taught , hearts are glistening
a beautiful sight
at houses , airplanes , a preacher delight
Sitting in a ecumenical wonder land .
Gone away is repentance
as sin is welcome for acceptance
but youll be sorry you bought
as Against you GOD fought
on the glorious day HE returns .
Oh how the children hear the sinners gleaming
as rainbows are held high and shined up gleaning
As budda statues kissed for world peace
the leaders of this sheep they do fleace
But come the day of the LORD
oh many HE will fight against with the SWORD
For to love a harlots dead love
is a like without wings for a dove
And when the hunter returns
they who loved a lie burns
OH What a day of wailing that will be .
ITS JESUS PREACHING TIME and HE DONT HONOR SIN my friends .

Good one, you're a poet!

 

[amigo de christo]

Good one, you're a poet!

and i didnt even know it .
March on in the trenches dear sister .

 

[amigo de christo]

Silent night , violent night .
F or to silence the TRUTH in favor of pleasing man will end with the second death .

 

[amigo de christo]

sitting in an ecumenical wonder land
is a man who built his house on sinking sand .

 

[Aunty Jane]

I wrote it years ago as the commercialisation of Christmas seems to escalate year on year. I know there are those who suggest that it's pagan in origin or it's not the actual date that Jesus was born but to me it doesn't matter. What does matter is that I can celebrate the greatest event ever, the greatest gift our God ever gave to mankind.
That Jesus was born as a boy child is fact. That he came to save us is fact. That angels appeared to announce his birth to shepherds is fact and it's these wondrous facts I choose to celebrate on 25th December.

I understand the attraction, based on what you said....but the fact remains that nowhere are we told to celebrate anyone’s birthday. Jesus was Jewish and the Jews were commanded NOT to adopt the practices of the nations, especially because of the customs associated with them. Birthday were one of them.

What was associated with birthdates? Astrology.....Horoscopes were cast by the date of birth. Customs involved celebrations with special a cake adorned with lighted tapers to ward off evil spirits and the “wishes” were meant to act as a lucky charm to protect the newborn.

God warned his people....
Deut 18:9-14...NLT...
“When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, be very careful not to imitate the detestable customs of the nations living there. For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering. And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. It is because the other nations have done these detestable things that the Lord your God will drive them out ahead of you. But you must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you are about to displace consult sorcerers and fortune-tellers, but the Lord your God forbids you to do such things.”

It’s not about what we think or feel...it’s about what God has commanded us to do, and not to do.

Whether it's the right date or not or whether the season had it's beginnings in paganism or not. The miracle of our Saviour's birth should be celebrated with feasting and merrymaking. And those who believe it's either pagan or the wrong day I have a couple of questions - Do you celebrate and when and when do you think is the right time?

Can I allow the apostle Paul tell you the answer to that question?

2 Cor 6:14-18...NASB...
“Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, [the devil] or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.“ And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. “And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me, ”Says the Lord Almighty.”

If we are not to imitate pagan practices and celebrations, then no amount of emotional justification can make us feel good about what God clearly tells us not to do.
Paul’s words there leave us in no doubt...we have to remain separated from those celebrations because wearing a “Christian” label does not “Christianize” the paganism...it “paganizes” the Christianity. We are to touch nothing spiritually “unclean”.

Does appreciating what Christ’s birth meant to the world, necessarily involve a party? Can we not do so every day of our lives?....in our hearts? Which is more important to God? The Bible says that he does not change....will he accept today what he forbade in the past?

Oh and by the way this thread didn't start out to debate is Dec 25th is the right day or whether or not it's been adapted from a pagan festival. We have this debate every year and I always try to steer clear because it's not as important as some fold seem to think.

I believe that you are mistaken about that....it is very important, otherwise we would not have those guidelines stated in God’s word.
If through a purely emotional response we are lured into false religious practices, the devil has a victory.

What did Jesus say? His words at Luke 16:10 carry the principle....
“He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.” (NASB)

The ‘little things’ matter to God as much as the big things.....why? Because it shows God that we are not looking for excuses to do what we want, rather than what God wants....putting our own will before his.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you @WalterandDebbie for that comprehensive information.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Thank you @WalterandDebbie for that comprehensive information.

Glad you enjoyed it, thank you, love Walter and Debbie

 

[amigo de christo]

Good one, you're a poet!

Sister nancy if you are still awake , Lift those hands and praise the glorious LORD .

 

[Pearl]

I understand the attraction, based on what you said....but the fact remains that nowhere are we told to celebrate anyone’s birthday. Jesus was Jewish and the Jews were commanded NOT to adopt the practices of the nations, especially because of the customs associated with them. Birthday were one of them.

Celebrating the coming to earth of God in human form is so much more that celebrating a birthday. It is celebrating the greatest event of all time. An event that was foretold in the Old Testament, a miraculous and unique event where a virgin gave birth to the Son of God. How can we not be in awe of that and find it a cause for celebration.

 

[Pearl]

Xox
I agree @Pearl
That's why I never mentioned the date at all, that is never an issue for me. AuntyJane and 1 or 2 others commented on that, not me though.

I realise that @Nancy and it isn't an issue for most Christians but always at the this of year whenever Christmas is mentioned this same old argument raises its head.

 

[Nancy]

I realise that @Nancy and it isn't an issue for most Christians but always at the this of year whenever Christmas is mentioned this same old argument raises its head.

Understood Pearl.
My family was raised Catholic and I will always cherish our Christmases together, we knew the TRUE reason it was celebrated.
I'm sorry I brought it up.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Celebrating the coming to earth of God in human form is so much more that celebrating a birthday. It is celebrating the greatest event of all time. An event that was foretold in the Old Testament, a miraculous and unique event where a virgin gave birth to the Son of God. How can we not be in awe of that and find it a cause for celebration.

It’s really not about celebrating the birth of Christ, but adopting a pagan celebration and simply changing the name...this is how the Roman Emperor contaminated Christianity.....he took an already weakened church and fused it with Roman sun worship.....he did this by changing the “sun” into the “son”.....and everyone was included in the festivities because it wasn’t just for the pagans anymore. “A rose by any other name”....

It was a sleight of hand that the devil is known for.....this is how you create false worship. Even “a little leaven ferments the whole lump”.

If you are familiar with the golden calf incident, when God liberated the Israelites from slavery in Egypt, do you recall the details? If you read Exodus 32:1-10 you will see the problem. When Moses was delaying in the mountain, they urged Aaron to make an idol and called it by the name of “Yahweh”, the God who had liberated them.

They fused Egyptian idol worship with true worship. God’s response was immediate and left no one in any doubt how he felt about doing such a thing. He commanded the culprits to be put to death.

God forbade the Israelites from that time onward from making up their own festivals. He was the one who told them what was appropriate to celebrate, and how to do it...in every detail, so that their own ideas would not come to be accepted as approved by God.

As the Jews did not celebrate birthdays and never recorded a single one, no one knows the date of Jesus’ birth, though the Bible gives us clues as @WalterandDebbie so clearly explained. Nowhere are we told to celebrate Christ’s birth because it was not his birth that saved us...it was his sacrificial death that we were told to commemorate as the important thing. Just that...not even his resurrection was a cause for a festival, but Christendom has fused it into “Easter”, which is another word not from Scripture.
That was a pagan festival in honor of the fertility goddess, whose name they didn’t even change. Her name was pronounced “Easter”.

The ostensible purpose of Easter is to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. This being the case, shouldn’t we ask....What do hot cross buns, chocolate eggs, rabbits, and so forth, have to do with Jesus or Easter as it is observed by Christendom? Little.....except that both have long been associated with the Spring....just as Christmas is associated with Winter. (For those of us in the Southern Hemisphere it’s Summer and the sleigh bells and snowmen are a ridiculously out of place.)

An Encyclopedia of Religion, by Vergilius Ferm, points out that....“Pagan practices were introduced into the Christian observance of Easter at an early age on account of the fact that the feast coincided with the beginning of spring”. . . . The pagans worshipped with the seasons....with the phases of sun and the moon.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “As at Christmas, so also at Easter, popular customs reflect many ancient pagan survivals—in this instance, connected with spring fertility rites, such as the symbols of the Easter egg and the Easter hare or rabbit.”
So the trappings of these celebrations still retain all their pagan practices......is that somehow OK with God?

Does 2 Cor 6:14-18 have no impact on the churches who use these two celebrations to fill their coffers?
Is the truth to give way to commercialism and pagan imitations?

I will apologise to no one for telling the truth.....The true God does not want contaminated worship....he never has...and he never will.

 

[Pearl]

Thanks @Aunty Jane for taking the time to reply but my thoughts are that even if it was pagan in origin 100s of years ago, today in true Christian hearts it is only about Jesus.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thanks @Aunty Jane for taking the time to reply but my thoughts are that even if it was pagan in origin 100s of years ago, today in true Christian hearts it is only about Jesus.

I always feel so sad this time of year, for those who are slaves to an empty tradition that has become nothing more than a commercial nightmare. No one in the churches of Christendom will ever be able to say to God...”sorry, we didn’t realize that we were honouring Christ by celebrating pagan festivals”...to which God was a first hand witness.....he saw the originals and still sees the paganism that is retained under another name. How long ago is 100’s of years to an eternal God? Even thousands of years ago is nothing to him.

To me, a “true Christian’s heart” clings to the truth....not delusions....Jesus and his apostles foretold the apostasy that introduced all these things....but somehow it is very deeply entrenched and therefore justified...and we see the reason in Paul’s statement....at 2 Thess 2:9-12....NKJV...speaking of the future when Christ’s elect would be gathered to him....

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Does the world that celebrates these things ‘take pleasure in unrighteousness’? Who can deny that?
In a secular country like Australia, Christmas is nothing more than an excuse for a holiday and to drink too much and eat too much. Yet the holiday is filled with the emblems of Winter. It’s ridiculous!

What is a “delusion”? It is someone’s altered reality.....in the world’s case, it is collective.

I know that America claims to be a “Christian” country, and so do many others....but that notion is betrayed by their actions, not their empty words. It’s all nominal and insincere for the majority.

All the pretty things in the world cannot disguise the atrocities committed by all warring nations, whether they claim to be Christian or not. None of that bloodshed has God’s sanction.

All will have to justify themselves to God..... (Matt 7:21-23) and he’s already told us the outcome of that...

 

[Pearl]

I always feel so sad this time of year, for those who are slaves to an empty tradition that has become nothing more than a commercial nightmare. No one in the churches of Christendom will ever be able to say to God...”sorry, we didn’t realize that we were honouring Christ by celebrating pagan festivals”...to which God was a first hand witness.....he saw the originals and still sees the paganism that is retained under another name. How long ago is 100’s of years to an eternal God? Even thousands of years ago is nothing to him.

Although there is a lot of commercialism and perhaps non Christians embrace it all for what it is without the understanding of what it really means, there's absolutely no reason for you to feel sorry for those of us that celebrate God's coming to earth in human form. Celebrating God's faithfulness was always a part of Jewish tradition and Jesus Himself celebrated.

For true Christians celebrating Christmas, celebrating the coming of the Christ, the Messiah, Immanuel - God with us - is not celebrating a pagan festival. As I have said previously it is a celebration of the coming to pass of that which was prophesied by Isaiah 9:6-11. Why do you think that isn't worth celebrating? I feel sorry for those who don't have it in their hearts to do justice to this truth by celebrating it.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

 

[Brakelite]

A Shopper’s Wonderland *

Cash tills ring, are you listening
In the malls tinsel’s glistening
A beautiful sight
To make you feel bright
Browsing in a shopper’s wonderland.

Gone away are your pences
But when you come to your senses
You’ll be sorry you bought
What you didn’t ought
While shopping in a shopper’s wonderland

In the New Year you will get a statement
That will have you falling to your knees
It says that you now owe us a fortune
And we’d like our money if you please.

Later on, we’ll perspire,
As we fret by the fire
Cos we’re very afraid bad decisions were made,
Over spending in that lovely wonderland.

In the spring perhaps we can re-mortgage
To pay off all the money that we owe
We’ll have to keep a tight rein on our budget
Until we’ve really sorted our cash flow.

But come next November
We will not remember
The mess that we made
And the prayers that we prayed
After shopping in that shopper’s wonderland.

[by Me. Pearl - Inspired by the 2009 M&S Christmas advert]

Sing it to the tune of Winter Wonderland - if you dare.

I sang it. To myself. Quietly. In my mind. And it fit perfect. 10 out of 10

 

[Aunty Jane]

Although there is a lot of commercialism and perhaps non Christians embrace it all for what it is without the understanding of what it really means, there's absolutely no reason for you to feel sorry for those of us that celebrate God's coming to earth in human form. Celebrating God's faithfulness was always a part of Jewish tradition and Jesus Himself celebrated.

If that was what Christendom was doing on a different date, and without the trappings of the original celebration held on that date to honor a false god...that might be a different story.....all that was done by Christendom was to alter the name of the god, and pretend that it somehow honoured Christ.
God was there observing the original and did not allow the Jews to celebrate any birthday because of its association with astrology.

There is only one outcome for those who want to mix true worship with false worship. (2 Cor 6:14-18) We are told to “separate” ourselves from those spiritually “unclean” things if we want God to see us as his “sons and daughters”. Plainly stated.

The justification doesn’t work with God...only to yourselves...because you love something that is disguised paganism, offending the one you claim to worship.
God can forgive ignorance...but he will not forgive disobedience. Once you know, you are accountable.

You don’t have to answer to me.....I’m just a messenger.

For true Christians celebrating Christmas, celebrating the coming of the Christ, the Messiah, Immanuel - God with us - is not celebrating a pagan festival. As I have said previously it is a celebration of the coming to pass of that which was prophesied by Isaiah 9:6-11. Why do you think that isn't worth celebrating? I feel sorry for those who don't have it in their hearts to do justice to this truth by celebrating it.

If you remember, God forbade the Nation of Israel from inventing their own celebrations because of the propensity to introduce their own ideas about what is acceptable to God and what is not. Nowhere are we told to celebrate Christ’s birth.....and certainly not the way the world does.

Not “worth celebrating”? What is to stop Christians celebrating it in their hearts every day? Do you need a party for everything? The world apparently does.....what comes after Christmas? New Year’s Eve! The biggest party on earth....which introduces “January”, named after Janus, the god of gates and doors...of openings and closings....it never ends!

We are told only to commemorate Christ’s death. So Easter, which is supposedly a celebration of Christ’s resurrection, is not a Christian celebration either. It is also grafted over a pagan festival that honoured a fertility goddess....whose name they didn’t even bother to change....and whose symbols (eggs and rabbits) are still in evidence.

Don’t you have to wonder why all that Christendom celebrates is borrowed from the pagans?
Who rules this world? (1 John 5:19) He’s the puppet master and all the strings are attached to the god of this world, not to the true God at all. (2 Cor 4:4) It speaks of “blindness”....

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

In prophesy this “government” (God’s Kingdom) was something to look forward to...but the “Prince of Peace” is not served by those with blood on their hands or political or racial hatred in their hearts, (Isa 1:15) and there can be no justification for what God condemns.
You cannot love what God hates. He hates false worship.

FWIW...

 

[Pearl]

If that was what Christendom was doing on a different date, and without the trappings of the original celebration held on that date to honor a false god...that might be a different story.....all that was done by Christendom was to alter the name of the god, and pretend that it somehow honoured Christ.
God was there observing the original and did not allow the Jews to celebrate any birthday because of its association with astrology.

There is only one outcome for those who want to mix true worship with false worship. (2 Cor 6:14-18) We are told to “separate” ourselves from those spiritually “unclean” things if we want God to see us as his “sons and daughters”. Plainly stated.

The justification doesn’t work with God...only to yourselves...because you love something that is disguised paganism, offending the one you claim to worship.
God can forgive ignorance...but he will not forgive disobedience. Once you know, you are accountable.

You don’t have to answer to me.....I’m just a messenger.

If you remember, God forbade the Nation of Israel from inventing their own celebrations because of the propensity to introduce their own ideas about what is acceptable to God and what is not. Nowhere are we told to celebrate Christ’s birth.....and certainly not the way the world does.

Not “worth celebrating”? What is to stop Christians celebration it in their hearts every day? Do you need a party for everything? The world apparently does.....what comes after Christmas? New Year’s Eve! The biggest party on earth....which introduces “January”, named after Janus, the god of gates and doors...of openings and closings....it never ends!

We are told only to commemorate Christ’s death. So Easter, which is supposedly a celebration of Christ’s resurrection, is not a Christian celebration either. It is also grafted over a pagan festival that honoured a fertility goddess....whose name they didn’t even bother to change....and whose symbols (eggs and rabbits) are still in evidence.

Don’t you have to wonder why all that Christendom celebrates is borrowed from the pagans?
Who rules this world? (1 John 5:19) He’s the puppet master and all the strings are attached to the god of this world, not to the true God at all. (2 Cor 4:4) It speaks of “blindness”....

In prophesy this “government” (God’s Kingdom) was something to look forward to...but the “Prince of Peace” is not served by those with blood on their hands or political or racial hatred in their hearts, (Isa 1:15) and there can be no justification for what God condemns.
You cannot love what God hates. He hates false worship.
Su
FWIW...

You know what @Aunty Jane I'll celebrate Christmas in the way most Christians do because it's a time of awe and wonder. But you obviously can't see that for the smoke screen your cult has covered it with. So you will miss out on all the JOY that is in Christmas and all the LOVE and SHARING.

As for my personal celebrations I have a small nativity scene, no tree, no tinsel; I won't stuff myself with rich food or drink myself silly with booze. What I will do is spend time with my adult children and their children. I'll eat a traditional Christmas lunch with a glass of good wine at the home of my daughter. I'll also spend time with God and my bible and praising Him for sending Jesus to us, who is God Himself come amongst us. I find it completely unacceptable that any true Christian group would teach it's followers the things you have been posting. Now in my view that is evil as it distorts the whole Gospel.

So @Aunty Jane seasons greeting to you. And may the Good Lord open your heart and mind to receive the Good News of the coming of the Christ Child - the Messiah - with the joy it deserves.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I find it completely unacceptable that any true Christian group would teach it's followers the things you have been posting.

What have I posted that is not true? Please tell me.....

Now in my view that is evil as it distorts the whole Gospel.

Then perhaps you don’t really know what the “gospel” is....? It means “good news” or “glad tidings”....so can you tell me what is ‘good news’ about adopting pagan celebrations and passing them off as if they were “Christian”? Would Jesus do that? Did God allow Israel to do that? Did you know that they tried?....and God sent Elijah to show them how he felt about it.

The Israelites were attempting to fuse God’s worship with Baal worship, as if both were equally acceptable...

“So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel. And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.” (1 Kings 18:20-21 ESV)

God, through his prophet Elijah, told the Israelites to choose which god they would serve, because they could not serve both.

He gives people today the same option.

There’s a whole lot of denial in the excuses....

So @Aunty Jane seasons greeting to you. And may the Good Lord open your heart and mind to receive the Good News of the coming of the Christ Child - the Messiah - with the joy it deserves.

I choose not be a slave to a pagan inspired commercial event that is thinly disguised as “Christianity”.

You are free to do as you wish of course, but the truth should be told. Nothing I have offered is untrue, even if people don’t want to hear it. What Jesus preached was unpopular too, but it didn’t make him wrong.